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Would a self driving car world make it safe for cyclists?

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Would a self driving car world make it safe for cyclists?

Old 06-26-17, 01:05 AM
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Originally Posted by SHBR
Public transportation moves millions of people every day, most of it would come to a grinding halt with a simple power outage.
Quite true. With our understanding now about the effects of solar flares (and other more unsettling types) of EMP on electric circuits, it would make more sense to be manufacturing very low-tech vehicles. Unfortunately people demand electronic transmissions, digital aircon, DVD and Bluetooth. They seem to want a car that mirrors their lounge room.
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Old 06-26-17, 01:38 AM
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Originally Posted by coominya
Quite true. With our understanding now about the effects of solar flares (and other more unsettling types) of EMP on electric circuits, it would make more sense to be manufacturing very low-tech vehicles. Unfortunately people demand electronic transmissions, digital aircon, DVD and Bluetooth. They seem to want a car that mirrors their lounge room.
This is also a pipe dream.

Younger generations are born with this technology, they wouldn't be able to adapt.

Imagine if there was a massive worldwide internet outage tomorrow, people would die.

Those of us who are old enough to remember what life was like before the internet might stand a chance, even then, life would be difficult.

Technology is a one way trip for most of the population to a place with less freedom and less choice.
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Old 06-27-17, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by SHBR
Technology is a one way trip for most of the population to a place with less freedom and less choice.
Very true!
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Old 06-27-17, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by SHBR
Public transportation moves millions of people every day, most of it would come to a grinding halt with a simple power outage.

Imagine everyone is connected to the automated matrix, cars, trucks, buses, airplanes, drones, and almost everything that moves. Given that this technology will most likely be centrally controlled, (for efficiency and cost reasons) what happens when there is malicious code or a bad actor that causes that entire system to malfunction?

I highly doubt that kind of scenario will end well.
There is no requirement for centralized control with autonomous vehicles. There might be some coordination/cooperation/efficiency benefit to such a system, but there is no reason to make any vehicle dependent on it to the point where it would cease to function if the centralized system went down.
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Old 06-28-17, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by SHBR

Technology is a one way trip for most of the population to a place with less freedom and less choice.
Not all technologies. Don't throw out the baby with the bath water.

The bicycle is a classic example, even in it's modern form it gives more freedom and choice than walking. I think what you are saying is that digital technology leads to less freedom and choice and I couldn't agree more but my lithium cordless tool set saves me a mountain of time and effort and is just another example of how technology can be a benefit.
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Old 07-01-17, 03:48 AM
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Originally Posted by scratchpaddy
Having your own self-driving car will seem like a ridiculous luxury.
I agree, since the few models that eventually make it to production will be hellishly expensive. that said there are many rich people who spend as much or more on a watch or a painting so to have one in the garage beside their Maserati will be quite acceptable.

now go out to your car and have a look in the glovebox, is there anything personal in it? Sunglasses, cough lollies? A usb charge cable? Some spare meds? How about the trunk, a rug? Some picnic stuff? Hobby related stuff? Now take it all out and put it in your pocket or knapsack and you have a share car.

Around here people surf; camp, fly drones, operate ham radios, do photography, tow boats and caravans, jetskis, and believe it or not, Actually carry bicycles on the tops and backs of their cars on special racks Many more operate small businesses and all of these pursuits require a car dedicated to the user, that is obvious.


I saw the minority report too. Good SiFi movie...


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Old 07-01-17, 04:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Ninety5rpm
There is no requirement for centralized control with autonomous vehicles. There might be some coordination/cooperation/efficiency benefit to such a system, but there is no reason to make any vehicle dependent on it to the point where it would cease to function if the centralized system went down.
It should be an autonomous system.

I'm all for technology that gives people MORE choices, however if you look at historic trends of the past few decades, most technology and related services have become more centralized.

The internet should be decentralized, however most of the population uses highly centralized social media websites, defeating the original purpose of the internet.

As an example, look at the disruption that has been caused by photobucket requiring paid subscriptions to host images on 3rd party websites. (such as this one)

Never underestimate the "profit motive".
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Old 07-05-17, 02:53 AM
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Everything is profit based and at around $300,000 currently for the SD cars under test I can't imagine them ever getting into mass production.

Here is some technology from over 100 years ago when electric cars were a serious contender to the fuel powered ones we all drive now 100 YEARS LATER.




They still make these batteries but they are and always were, expensive, so they were left for niche applications. Subs for one.
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Old 07-05-17, 04:27 AM
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Originally Posted by coominya
Everything is profit based and at around $300,000 currently for the SD cars under test I can't imagine them ever getting into mass production.

Here is some technology from over 100 years ago when electric cars were a serious contender to the fuel powered ones we all drive now 100 YEARS LATER.




They still make these batteries but they are and always were, expensive, so they were left for niche applications. Subs for one.

Aren't they called Duracell and Energizer?
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Old 07-05-17, 04:29 AM
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Originally Posted by coominya
I agree, since the few models that eventually make it to production will be hellishly expensive. that said there are many rich people who spend as much or more on a watch or a painting so to have one in the garage beside their Maserati will be quite acceptable.

now go out to your car and have a look in the glovebox, is there anything personal in it? Sunglasses, cough lollies? A usb charge cable? Some spare meds? How about the trunk, a rug? Some picnic stuff? Hobby related stuff? Now take it all out and put it in your pocket or knapsack and you have a share car.

Around here people surf; camp, fly drones, operate ham radios, do photography, tow boats and caravans, jetskis, and believe it or not, Actually carry bicycles on the tops and backs of their cars on special racks Many more operate small businesses and all of these pursuits require a car dedicated to the user, that is obvious.


I saw the minority report too. Good SiFi movie...



If they can't keep an interstate highway fixed fast enough, yes, it is science fiction.
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Old 07-05-17, 09:31 AM
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Anyone who thinks Facebook, Google and other global Internet entities are NOT significantly decentralized doesn't understand real distributed processing architecture. The Internet itself is the ultimate in a headless, self-healing, indestructible network, designed by the U.S.military to survive the worst case scenario imaginable. There's that. How anyone who has seen the performance of current autonomous vehicles extrapolates that they will be victim to network hacking... ... its just fear talking. But where does all this fear come from? I'm just saying... there is a price, a very high price, that will be paid by our children for all this ignorance, fear and hyperbole that this thread is just one example of. The Luddite community finally has one of their own in high office, and the process of returning America to a 19th Century technological platform is accelerating. Sad.
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Old 07-05-17, 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Leisesturm
Anyone who thinks Facebook, Google and other global Internet entities are NOT significantly decentralized doesn't understand real distributed processing architecture. The Internet itself is the ultimate in a headless, self-healing, indestructible network, designed by the U.S.military to survive the worst case scenario imaginable. There's that. How anyone who has seen the performance of current autonomous vehicles extrapolates that they will be victim to network hacking... ... its just fear talking. But where does all this fear come from? I'm just saying... there is a price, a very high price, that will be paid by our children for all this ignorance, fear and hyperbole that this thread is just one example of. The Luddite community finally has one of their own in high office, and the process of returning America to a 19th Century technological platform is accelerating. Sad.
^^^ This.
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Old 07-05-17, 07:51 PM
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The progress of science is inexorable. Fear may slow it a bit, but it won't be stopped.
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Old 07-05-17, 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by SHBR
It should be an autonomous system.

I'm all for technology that gives people MORE choices, however if you look at historic trends of the past few decades, most technology and related services have become more centralized.

The internet should be decentralized, however most of the population uses highly centralized social media websites, defeating the original purpose of the internet.

As an example, look at the disruption that has been caused by photobucket requiring paid subscriptions to host images on 3rd party websites. (such as this one)

Never underestimate the "profit motive".
The internet was design with decentralization as a feature, a priority. It is interesting that commercial forces have kind of un-decentralized it.
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Old 07-05-17, 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Rollfast
Aren't they called Duracell and Energizer?
No. they are a deep-cycle flooded, what's called a secondary battery. The ones you refer to are a Primary battery, one use throw away.

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Old 07-06-17, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by coominya
No. they are a deep-cycle flooded, what's called a secondary battery. The ones you refer to are a Primary battery, one use throw away.
Actually nickel metal hydride batteries made it into wide production and competed with lead-acid batteries, especially in bicycle headlight applications, until lithium ion technology came to be dominant. It is interesting that lead acid remains competitive in automotive and marine applications despite the weight of them, and the poor discharge/recharge performance. That WILL have to change. Lithium ion clearly is not ready for prime time, but its performance superiority to lead acid is unquestioned. It must be further refined to be as stable as lead acid. Actually, further R&D needs to be undertaken to find some completely new technology to store and release electrical energy on demand. Compared to gasoline, Lithium ion technology is pitiable. The gap needs to be closed. Otherwise we will never be able to get the mouth breathers to stop huffing the stuff...
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Old 07-06-17, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by tyrion
The internet was design with decentralization as a feature, a priority. It is interesting that commercial forces have kind of un-decentralized it.
Well the internet itself is still a widely distributed network with massive server redundancy... the commercial forces, such as Amazon have only "centralized" their particular portion of it... and even that isn't quite true as they have warehouses and distribution centers in several states.

The airlines have also "put their eggs in one basket" so to speak... along with other commercial forces, this no doubt to cut down on the need to have multiple locations and people... and thus costs.

But the net itself is still quite redundant.
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Old 07-09-17, 08:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Leisesturm
Anyone who thinks Facebook, Google and other global Internet entities are NOT significantly decentralized doesn't understand real distributed processing architecture. The Internet itself is the ultimate in a headless, self-healing, indestructible network, designed by the U.S.military to survive the worst case scenario imaginable. There's that. How anyone who has seen the performance of current autonomous vehicles extrapolates that they will be victim to network hacking... ... its just fear talking. But where does all this fear come from? I'm just saying... there is a price, a very high price, that will be paid by our children for all this ignorance, fear and hyperbole that this thread is just one example of. The Luddite community finally has one of their own in high office, and the process of returning America to a 19th Century technological platform is accelerating. Sad.


That's a lovely thought, but DoD gave Arpanet/Internet to businesses and institutions because it wasn't ultimately reliable in the event of a war. As you well know, anybody can cut it off and block 'undesirables' easily as it is.


The military has moved on to more hardened and internal means of communication, which suit it far better.


It also took at least 15 years after that for the 'backbone' to get into many towns. If you've forgotten, look up SQL Slammer worm, UUNet backbone failure, major blackouts in the US 1990-present.


Your friends down under also still have that cable, even with satellites.
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Old 07-10-17, 04:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Leisesturm
Actually nickel metal hydride batteries made it into wide production and competed with lead-acid batteries, especially in bicycle headlight applications, until lithium ion technology came to be dominant. It is interesting that lead acid remains competitive in automotive and marine applications despite the weight of them, and the poor discharge/recharge performance. That WILL have to change.
NiMH batteries do not perform under high discharge, that is why they recommended them not to be used in digital cameras with flashes. I tried them once and the discharge curve fell off a cliff. That's also why they never found their way into battery drills, it was always Nicad. they would be useless as a car starter. I can buy a new lead-acid starter for my motorcycle from between $50 and $85 or I can buy a lithium for between $200 to $300.

Lithium is simply too expensive for mass uptake in the auto market.
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Old 07-10-17, 05:45 AM
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Originally Posted by coominya
Lithium is simply too expensive for mass uptake in the auto market.
Is that a fact?

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Old 07-22-17, 10:28 PM
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Originally Posted by coominya
now go out to your car and have a look in the glovebox, is there anything personal in it? Sunglasses, cough lollies? A usb charge cable? Some spare meds? How about the trunk, a rug? Some picnic stuff? Hobby related stuff? Now take it all out and put it in your pocket or knapsack and you have a share car.
When I go to dances or other activities 1-3 hours away, I'm often carrying a change of clothes so I don't have to wear a suit/shirt wrinkled from the drive. Very few places have the equivalent of a cloakroom where I could leave my "trip clothes" secured during the activity, nor for that matter, would there be anywhere to put my suit at Taco Bell if I want to stop for lunch on the way to/from the activity. Since I also tend to combine these trips with shopping for things that I can't easily get here, there may often be a need to add 1-2 more suits, (thrift stores rock when you're a relatively common size) bulk foods or other large items to what I would have to keep up with if I used a share car that could be summoned away any time I'm not actually in it for whatever length of time.

Then go to the WalMart customer service desk and ask how many cell phones, wallets, etc. get turned in every day. Imagine if all those people were leaving that stuff in share cars daily.

And, FWIW, here's what automated navigation of a small, relatively controlled environment at low speed really looks like: https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-40642968
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Old 07-23-17, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by KD5NRH
When I go to dances or other activities 1-3 hours away, I'm often carrying a change of clothes so I don't have to wear a suit/shirt wrinkled from the drive. Very few places have the equivalent of a cloakroom where I could leave my "trip clothes" secured during the activity, nor for that matter, would there be anywhere to put my suit at Taco Bell if I want to stop for lunch on the way to/from the activity. Since I also tend to combine these trips with shopping for things that I can't easily get here, there may often be a need to add 1-2 more suits, (thrift stores rock when you're a relatively common size) bulk foods or other large items to what I would have to keep up with if I used a share car that could be summoned away any time I'm not actually in it for whatever length of time.

Then go to the WalMart customer service desk and ask how many cell phones, wallets, etc. get turned in every day. Imagine if all those people were leaving that stuff in share cars daily.

And, FWIW, here's what automated navigation of a small, relatively controlled environment at low speed really looks like: Robot 'drowns' in fountain mishap - BBC News
Then hey, if robot cars are so inconvenient for you, and apparently so dumb... don't use one. It's that simple. They are not here yet, there is no requirement to use one.

The only reason this thread is here is to answer the question of "would a self driving car world be safer for cyclists..." and the only answer is "if a self driving car obeyed all the laws and rules of the road, the answer is yes, it would be safer." Humans do not consistently obey said laws.

There, now go dancing.
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Old 07-24-17, 12:19 PM
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My motor vehicles never have any personal items in them when not being driven. I can't stand clutter.
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Old 07-24-17, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by noisebeam
My motor vehicles never have any personal items in them when not being driven. I can't stand clutter.
I can't stand being unprepared... so my truck has jumper cables and a tow strap, as well as energy bars, water, tarp, ax, CB radio, compass, paper towels, oil, funnel, rope, tire pressure gauge... just to name a few items.

My "ready bike bag" has tire tools, granola bar, light rain jacket, spare tube, patch kit, duct tape, cable ties, loose change, and multitool.

Even a simple day pack has pencil, knife, granola bar, paper, duct tape...

Heck my pockets contain keys, knife and can opener... and smartphone.
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Old 07-24-17, 03:33 PM
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Sure I have jumper cables, flashlight and other tools in my vehicles, but don't consider those personal items. They are also in secured containers, not loose.

In my truck you will not find the CDs, change, trash, old faded receipts, books, magazines, old folders, towels, smelly shirt, hat, broken sunglasses, etc. that clutter up my wife's vehicle.
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