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Would a self driving car world make it safe for cyclists?

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Would a self driving car world make it safe for cyclists?

Old 07-25-17, 08:13 AM
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What? Not one smelly shirt?
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Old 07-25-17, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by KD5NRH

Then go to the WalMart customer service desk and ask how many cell phones, wallets, etc. get turned in every day. Imagine if all those people were leaving that stuff in share cars daily.

And, FWIW, here's what automated navigation of a small, relatively controlled environment at low speed really looks like: Robot 'drowns' in fountain mishap - BBC News
Yes, another good example why the share car dream is just a dream. For the average person it's far cheaper to own a small car and pay all the expenses then to pay the appropriate "taxi" fees on a $250,000 smart luxury self drive one.
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Old 07-25-17, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by genec

The only reason this thread is here is to answer the question of "would a self driving car world be safer for cyclists..." and the only answer is "if a self driving car obeyed all the laws and rules of the road, the answer is yes

There, now go dancing.
You have obviously never driven a car around cyclists. I couldn't count the times I've had to cross a double white line to obey the 1 meter law, breaking one law to obey a more important law. Laws are allowed to be broken in many circumstances, especially if it is an emergency, and a brainless computer car that obeys ALL laws would be be incapable of making these rational decisions. Obviously you are a bad driver and feel the need to have someone else take that responsibility, fair enough, not everyone is gifted with common sense in this world. Hurry the day of self-drive cars eh
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Old 07-25-17, 03:40 PM
  #379  
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Originally Posted by coominya
Yes, another good example why the share car dream is just a dream.
you can apply for the dream":
https://waymo.com/apply/
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Old 07-25-17, 03:59 PM
  #380  
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Originally Posted by noisebeam
you can apply for the dream":
https://waymo.com/apply/
Nobody is claiming that a lot of money is not being thrown at this quest to strike gold in those dreamy hills of self driving cars. No matter how much effort has been expended so far, no one has so far created gold from lead despite the quest's long history.

Note also that despite man landing on the moon, and lots of money spent and lots of people working on it, cancer has not been cured.
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Old 07-25-17, 04:25 PM
  #381  
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There is a lot more progress than may be realized by those outside the test areas.
I cycled with four self driving vehicles on the 40min ride home yesterday and with three this morning.

On the way home I was in a thru/RT lane & I lined up behind drivers side (who was actually a passenger, doh, there is no drivers side anymore!) I stayed right behind their left taillight, but was most odd about it is the 'driver' watched me the entire time in their door mount rear view mirror even as they were turning right. It was odd as a person actual driving would have had to look ahead to make the turn smoothly.
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Old 07-25-17, 05:29 PM
  #382  
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Originally Posted by coominya
You have obviously never driven a car around cyclists. I couldn't count the times I've had to cross a double white line to obey the 1 meter law, breaking one law to obey a more important law. Laws are allowed to be broken in many circumstances, especially if it is an emergency, and a brainless computer car that obeys ALL laws would be be incapable of making these rational decisions. Obviously you are a bad driver and feel the need to have someone else take that responsibility, fair enough, not everyone is gifted with common sense in this world. Hurry the day of self-drive cars eh
I drive around cyclists all the time... I live near a rural 2 lane highway that cyclists love. I only cross YELLOW lines when the line next to me is dashed. I generally slow down for cyclists whether there is a clear need to or not, as a courtesy. (no one likes a car blasting by them at 55 or 60MPH) I have long given cyclists plenty of room (long before it became a law), and I only pass when and where it is legal... this has caused me far less delay than waiting at the typical red light... Thus virtually no hassle what so ever.

That one cannot make such decisions, and instead choose to pass in an unsafe area I suspect is due to lack of planning on your part... likely you are one of those drivers that has to cross three lanes to make the highway exit that was announced 2 miles back. You no doubt blame cyclists and pedestrians and even the UPS guy, when you arrive late for some event... merely because you failed to plan ahead. Do you even drive at or below the speed limit... or do you break those laws too?
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Old 07-25-17, 05:31 PM
  #383  
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
Nobody is claiming that a lot of money is not being thrown at this quest to strike gold in those dreamy hills of self driving cars. No matter how much effort has been expended so far, no one has so far created gold from lead despite the quest's long history.

Note also that despite man landing on the moon, and lots of money spent and lots of people working on it, cancer has not been cured.
I do not recall "curing cancer" to ever be the goal of the moon flights... was that something Kennedy promised that most of us missed?
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Old 07-25-17, 05:33 PM
  #384  
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Originally Posted by noisebeam
There is a lot more progress than may be realized by those outside the test areas.
I cycled with four self driving vehicles on the 40min ride home yesterday and with three this morning.

On the way home I was in a thru/RT lane & I lined up behind drivers side (who was actually a passenger, doh, there is no drivers side anymore!) I stayed right behind their left taillight, but was most odd about it is the 'driver' watched me the entire time in their door mount rear view mirror even as they were turning right. It was odd as a person actual driving would have had to look ahead to make the turn smoothly.
The left side passenger was probably amazed and astounded to see one of those legendary "vehicular cyclists..."
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Old 07-25-17, 06:12 PM
  #385  
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Originally Posted by genec
I do not recall "curing cancer" to ever be the goal of the moon flights... was that something Kennedy promised that most of us missed?
You must have missed some people crying the banal bromide "if They can put a man on the moon, They can invent/fix/cure whatever, to include cure cancer."
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Old 07-25-17, 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by noisebeam
There is a lot more progress than may be realized by those outside the test areas.
I cycled with four self driving vehicles on the 40min ride home yesterday and with three this morning.

On the way home I was in a thru/RT lane & I lined up behind drivers side (who was actually a passenger, doh, there is no drivers side anymore!) I stayed right behind their left taillight, but was most odd about it is the 'driver' watched me the entire time in their door mount rear view mirror even as they were turning right. It was odd as a person actual driving would have had to look ahead to make the turn smoothly.
Did you note on your way how many motor vehicles driven by humans, many of whom were presumably drunk, distracted and/or texting (if A&S posters are to be believed)also were driven correctly while in your presence? In fact how many collided with you today?
Don't you think that it is no great feat to drive a motor vehicle according to the book when nothing unusual occurs anywhere near you?
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Old 07-25-17, 07:12 PM
  #387  
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
Did you note on your way how many motor vehicles driven by humans, many of whom were presumably drunk, distracted and/or texting (if A&S posters are to be believed)also were driven correctly while in your presence? In fact how many collided with you today?
Don't you think that it is no great feat to drive a motor vehicle according to the book when nothing unusual occurs anywhere near you?
I have no idea what you are going on about.

ps- no self driving vehicles on ride home today.
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Old 07-25-17, 08:25 PM
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Originally Posted by noisebeam
I have no idea what you are going on about.

ps- no self driving vehicles on ride home today.
It means I am not counting on the the self driving Nirvana arriving any time soon because you have seen a few instances of self driving technologies not bumping into things while being tested in public under carefully selected relatively safe conditions with a human backup if anything unusual or unprogrammed occurs in its vicinity. Ya know, the sort of thing human drivers figure out in real time all day, every day everywhere. Similar nothing burger anecdotes repeated by day dreamers, PR flacks, and the gullible also may serve as grist for speculators' $ churn machine but fails to indicate the dawn of the New Age of Motoring Safety.
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Old 07-25-17, 08:57 PM
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
You must have missed some people crying the banal bromide "if They can put a man on the moon, They can invent/fix/cure whatever, to include cure cancer."
They're working on it. But they've got a lot of stuff on their plate. And they're only human. I think.
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Old 07-25-17, 09:24 PM
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
You must have missed some people crying the banal bromide "if They can put a man on the moon, They can invent/fix/cure whatever, to include cure cancer."
Why don't you remind yourself how many explosions and failures occurred before successfully landing a man on the moon?

There are collisions and fatalities every day with human driven vehicles. When will you be involved in any of them is a crap-shoot. Forbes reported the average time a driver is between collisions is 17.9 years.

Using the kind of logic to reject self-driving cars is stronger rejecting human-driven vehicles.
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Old 07-26-17, 07:55 AM
  #391  
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We may never get to actual full self driving cars suitable for all driving conditions... the tech may only advance to the point of making drivers much safer, with collision avoidance features, but not quite bridge that final self driving void. We may end up with vehicles that accept input from drivers, but that the vehicle DOES avoid collisions in such a manner as to dramatically reduce highway deaths.

Self driving cars may end up only being used in controlled "taxi like" situations or on limited access freeways.

Reduction in traffic deaths will be the key... along with giving people the impression that they are still in control... because they "enjoy" driving (ie, don’t trust "robots").
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Old 07-26-17, 08:25 AM
  #392  
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
Nobody is claiming that a lot of money is not being thrown at this quest to strike gold in those dreamy hills of self driving cars. No matter how much effort has been expended so far, no one has so far created gold from lead despite the quest's long history.

Note also that despite man landing on the moon, and lots of money spent and lots of people working on it, cancer has not been cured.
This might interest you https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...ned-into-gold/
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Old 07-26-17, 10:07 AM
  #393  
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
It means I am not counting on the the self driving Nirvana arriving any time soon because you have seen a few instances of self driving technologies not bumping into things while being tested in public under carefully selected relatively safe conditions with a human backup if anything unusual or unprogrammed occurs in its vicinity. Ya know, the sort of thing human drivers figure out in real time all day, every day everywhere. Similar nothing burger anecdotes repeated by day dreamers, PR flacks, and the gullible also may serve as grist for speculators' $ churn machine but fails to indicate the dawn of the New Age of Motoring Safety.
From where did you get the idea I was providing any data on relative safety?
I only relayed a story about how it was odd seeing a person in the drivers seat not watching or even glancing where they were going while turning.
You often have good perspective, but in this case missed the mark.
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Old 07-26-17, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by noisebeam
From where did you get the idea I was providing any data on relative safety?
I only relayed a story about how it was odd seeing a person in the drivers seat not watching or even glancing where they were going while turning.
You often have good perspective, but in this case missed the mark.
I may have missed the mark as to your intent in reporting your anecdote, but my point remains evident that such anecdotes provide little evidence of the foreseeable future of a network of self driving motor vehicles successfully operating on the public road system now in existence, nor of any credible prediction for when such a network of self driving motor vehicles will ever operate compatibly with the other users of a road environment equal in practicality or usefulness to the road network that exists today.

And such anecdotes provide zero evidence for predicting that road safety will be improved, unless increased "safety" is obtained by stopping all traffic to a crawl or a standstill anytime/all the time whenever something out of the parameters of normal situations occurs such as perfect weather and road conditions, and no unanticipated defects or mechanical or software glitches in any self driving vehicle anywhere in the vicinity.

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Old 07-26-17, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by wphamilton
"But what of the fabled transmutation of lead to gold? It is indeed possible—all you need is a particle accelerator, a vast supply of energy and an extremely low expectation of how much gold you will end up with."

The bottom line is that the wishful thinkers and speculators may one day have to settle a result that doesn't come even close to their dreamy expectations, even after great expenditures of capital and resources.
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Old 07-26-17, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
I may have missed the mark as to your intent in reporting your anecdote, but my point remains evident that such anecdotes provide little evidence of the foreseeable future of a network of self driving motor vehicles successfully operating on the public road system now in existence, nor of any credible prediction for when such a network of self driving motor vehicles will ever operate compatibly with the other users of a road environment equal in practicality or usefulness to the road network that exists today.

And such anecdotes provide zero evidence for predicting that road safety will be improved, unless increased "safety" is obtained by stopping all traffic to a crawl or a standstill anytime/all the time whenever something out of the parameters of normal situations occurs such as perfect weather and road conditions, and no unanticipated defects or mechanical or software glitches in any self driving vehicle anywhere in the vicinity.
What do you mean by a "network of self driving cars"? Why are you even using the term "network"? The whole point is that each one will be autonomous. I realize some people think they will be communicating with each other (beyond "looking" with radar/Lidar), but even that does not necessitate a network of all of them. And I believe such communication will be unnecessary anyway. Because self-driving cars need to manage human-driven cars (not to mention bicyclists and pedestrians), a self-driving car should not have to communicate with others, beyond using turn/brake signals like any human-driven car.
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Old 07-26-17, 02:51 PM
  #397  
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
I may have missed the mark as to your intent in reporting your anecdote, but my point remains evident that such anecdotes provide little evidence of the foreseeable future of a network of self driving motor vehicles successfully operating on the public road system now in existence, nor of any credible prediction for when such a network of self driving motor vehicles will ever operate compatibly with the other users of a road environment equal in practicality or usefulness to the road network that exists today.

And such anecdotes provide zero evidence for predicting that road safety will be improved, unless increased "safety" is obtained by stopping all traffic to a crawl or a standstill anytime/all the time whenever something out of the parameters of normal situations occurs such as perfect weather and road conditions, and no unanticipated defects or mechanical or software glitches in any self driving vehicle anywhere in the vicinity.
it is bizarre you are criticizing an anecdote for not providing data or evidence when it was never intended to in any way or form.
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Old 07-26-17, 05:05 PM
  #398  
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Originally Posted by noisebeam
it is bizarre you are criticizing an anecdote for not providing data or evidence when it was never intended to in any way or form.
I don't consider it that bizarre to think that a anecdotal response to a thread titled "Would a self driving car World make it safe for cyclists?" might just have something to do with safety. Who wudda thunk it?
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Old 07-26-17, 05:14 PM
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Yet someone provided the counter-anecdote lapis philosophorum.

-mr. bill
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Old 07-27-17, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
"But what of the fabled transmutation of lead to gold? It is indeed possible—all you need is a particle accelerator, a vast supply of energy and an extremely low expectation of how much gold you will end up with."

The bottom line is that the wishful thinkers and speculators may one day have to settle a result that doesn't come even close to their dreamy expectations, even after great expenditures of capital and resources.
I don't know what lead you to this "No matter how much effort has been expended so far, no one has so far created gold from lead despite the quest's long history" but you seem to imply that technology is insufficient for viable autonomous vehicles, using this as an example. Did you reach both conclusions from a basis of general principle, or did you have some specific reason?

Artificial Intelligence has exceeded most expectations, at every milestone.
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