Would a self driving car world make it safe for cyclists?
#51
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Ill say it again,
That giant pick up truck is not dangerous... It is the driver inside that hates people on bikes and yells expletives as he passes dangerously close and at a high speed.
That Prius is not dangerous.... Its the driver that does not realize his or her car is almost silent and sneaks up way to close to us.
That delivery truck is not dangerous.... The fatigued driver that has not noticed you yet on a busy street, and is staring at the girl on the opposite sidewalk that is about to strike you with his mirror.
Its not the 4 door sedan that is dangerous... The 16yr old driver texting a friend and driving way too fast that is about to rear end us.
So to simply answer the original question without going into the ethics of autonomous cars, or the time frame that we will see them... Yes they will be safer then human operators.
And think after a long fondo we can have a few libations at the pub, then recline the seat and let the car drive us home! ( not opening the worm hole on the subject yet)
That giant pick up truck is not dangerous... It is the driver inside that hates people on bikes and yells expletives as he passes dangerously close and at a high speed.
That Prius is not dangerous.... Its the driver that does not realize his or her car is almost silent and sneaks up way to close to us.
That delivery truck is not dangerous.... The fatigued driver that has not noticed you yet on a busy street, and is staring at the girl on the opposite sidewalk that is about to strike you with his mirror.
Its not the 4 door sedan that is dangerous... The 16yr old driver texting a friend and driving way too fast that is about to rear end us.
So to simply answer the original question without going into the ethics of autonomous cars, or the time frame that we will see them... Yes they will be safer then human operators.
And think after a long fondo we can have a few libations at the pub, then recline the seat and let the car drive us home! ( not opening the worm hole on the subject yet)
Last edited by PoorBob; 05-19-17 at 02:25 PM.
#52
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I wounder what our outlook would be if we had that generations perspective. Maybe we're a little spoiled? Obviously there's issues to be resolved, but perhaps it's not really that bad, and we're still better off overall.
Another thing to consider is that cities were much smaller, and there were far fewer people back then.
And we don't need to be near as careful where we step......

Last edited by kickstart; 05-20-17 at 01:31 AM.
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I know this is really a question for another thread, but since we're on the subject of automated cars (potentially) being safer for cyclists, who assumes the responsibility when / if a driverless car strikes and injures / kills a cyclist? The car manufacturer? The company that developed the software? Whoever owns the car? The person(s) riding in the car? All of them? None of them? Someone I haven't thought of yet?

#56
Senior Member
Lots of variables in that question.
Who was at fault, what were the causing factors. Did the autonomous vehicle malfunction and strike the cyclist?
If the car was at fault then the investigation would go further, in the end it would come down if there was neglect (maintenance) or a "willful" (disabling safety devices etc) act that caused the death. If its found to be willful then the responsible individual could see criminal charges.
Remember these cars will not just be tossed out on the highways without some major changes in Federal and changes to your State vehicle laws.
Who was at fault, what were the causing factors. Did the autonomous vehicle malfunction and strike the cyclist?
If the car was at fault then the investigation would go further, in the end it would come down if there was neglect (maintenance) or a "willful" (disabling safety devices etc) act that caused the death. If its found to be willful then the responsible individual could see criminal charges.
Remember these cars will not just be tossed out on the highways without some major changes in Federal and changes to your State vehicle laws.
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Let's hope not. Don't forget that at least one of the major players in the promotion of self driving car schemes, Uber, has never let a concern about flaunting existing laws or regulation hinder them in tossing their product out on the highways.
Last edited by I-Like-To-Bike; 05-20-17 at 08:59 AM.
#58
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Let's put it this way. A new grad is looking for his first job. He has $30,000 in debt. But instead of spending his time perfecting his resume, he's hung up on minimizing his taxes drawn from his retirement fund when he's 60. And he doesn't even have a retirement fund yet.
Those are the kind of problems he'd like to have when he reaches that happy place. Today he has to concentrate on getting his first job and that $30,000 debt paid.
When self-driving cars are on the road, you can be sure that the over-whelming majority of fatalities, injuries and damages will be the result of manual drivers. Regardless, the total fatalities per year will be a lot lower than the 30,000 per year the US experiences today which are all the result of human drivers. So don't let the problems we want to have stall you from making the improvements we need to make today.
There is nothing in the US Constitution saying a person has the right to drive.
Life, liberty and the right to happiness is not limited to those inside motor vehicles.
The ethical dilemma is not the perceived or imaginary right of the driver. (Motorists don't even offer that right to each other today.) It is the choice of the authorities when faced with public safety.
Those are the kind of problems he'd like to have when he reaches that happy place. Today he has to concentrate on getting his first job and that $30,000 debt paid.
When self-driving cars are on the road, you can be sure that the over-whelming majority of fatalities, injuries and damages will be the result of manual drivers. Regardless, the total fatalities per year will be a lot lower than the 30,000 per year the US experiences today which are all the result of human drivers. So don't let the problems we want to have stall you from making the improvements we need to make today.
There is nothing in the US Constitution saying a person has the right to drive.
Life, liberty and the right to happiness is not limited to those inside motor vehicles.
The ethical dilemma is not the perceived or imaginary right of the driver. (Motorists don't even offer that right to each other today.) It is the choice of the authorities when faced with public safety.
Last edited by Daniel4; 05-20-17 at 09:03 AM.
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The ethics are much more difficult than the technology issues and are summarized in the trolley problem.
Does the car act to save the passenger and sacrifice a bicyclist during a crash?
What if there are 2 passengers and 1 bicyclist?
What if the bicyclist is a child? A pregnant woman? 2 pregnant women inside the car vs.
3 children outside the car?
Can I pay more for driving software that favors the passengers? How much favoritism can I buy?
Thorny issues, no easy answers. These issues don't just apply to cars, they're going to be creeping into many aspects of life as things get more automated.
Does the car act to save the passenger and sacrifice a bicyclist during a crash?
What if there are 2 passengers and 1 bicyclist?
What if the bicyclist is a child? A pregnant woman? 2 pregnant women inside the car vs.
3 children outside the car?
Can I pay more for driving software that favors the passengers? How much favoritism can I buy?
Thorny issues, no easy answers. These issues don't just apply to cars, they're going to be creeping into many aspects of life as things get more automated.
#60
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So you are delaying the progress of mitigating the deaths of 6000 non-motorists a year because you can't decide if those lives have priority over a motorist and his passengers who will most likely suffer material damage or injury?
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The ethics are much more difficult than the technology issues and are summarized in the trolley problem.
Does the car act to save the passenger and sacrifice a bicyclist during a crash?
What if there are 2 passengers and 1 bicyclist?
What if the bicyclist is a child? A pregnant woman? 2 pregnant women inside the car vs.
3 children outside the car?
Can I pay more for driving software that favors the passengers? How much favoritism can I buy?
Thorny issues, no easy answers. These issues don't just apply to cars, they're going to be creeping into many aspects of life as things get more automated.
Does the car act to save the passenger and sacrifice a bicyclist during a crash?
What if there are 2 passengers and 1 bicyclist?
What if the bicyclist is a child? A pregnant woman? 2 pregnant women inside the car vs.
3 children outside the car?
Can I pay more for driving software that favors the passengers? How much favoritism can I buy?
Thorny issues, no easy answers. These issues don't just apply to cars, they're going to be creeping into many aspects of life as things get more automated.
#62
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If that question is to me, then no, I'm not delaying anything. I'm firmly in favor of driverless cars.
#63
Senior Member
Of course self driving cars would make it safer for cyclist...
once it's figured out... Until then, no. It will be more dangerous... It's just the way it is...


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What, besides the hot air and pie-in-the-sky promises emanating from the salesmen and hypesters promoting their dream cars, as well as a lot wishful thinking, gives you such confidence?
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The science of autonomous robotics has made great strides in the last decade and there is every reason to believe significant advances to continue. The sensing and control technology in self driving cars has a lot of applications and the research is driven by many concerns outside the passenger vehicle industry. Dept. of Defense interest guarantees a strong source of continued funding. I'm confident the technology will get there in 5 to 10 years. It will likely take much longer to dominate the market for a variety of reasons, but I don't think confidence in the technology is misplaced.
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The science of autonomous robotics has made great strides in the last decade and there is every reason to believe significant advances to continue. The sensing and control technology in self driving cars has a lot of applications and the research is driven by many concerns outside the passenger vehicle industry. Dept. of Defense interest guarantees a strong source of continued funding. I'm confident the technology will get there in 5 to 10 years. It will likely take much longer to dominate the market for a variety of reasons, but I don't think confidence in the technology is misplaced.
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No doubt that money will be thrown at the technology, but the question is what is the source for your and others' "confidence" in drastically reduced number of fatalities and injuries anytime in the foreseeable future, other than the promoters' hyped up promises and PR flack?
#68
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Um, didn't a cyber ransom attack just shut down major industries, medical centers, banks and other businesses all over the world (90+ countries including the US) just a week or so ago? 

Attention: We have just taken control of 10,000 Uber vehicles. Transfer $50 million in Bitcoin to this account within the next 15 minutes or your roadways will become a killing field.




#69
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Um, didn't a cyber ransom attack just shut down major industries, medical centers, banks and other businesses all over the world (90+ countries including the US) just a week or so ago? 

Attention: We have just taken control of 10,000 Uber vehicles. Transfer $50 million in Bitcoin to this account within the next 15 minutes or your roadways will become a killing field.




#70
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We'll be dead before that, and I can say that with confidence. Think thugs from A Clockwork Orange attacking these cars.
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Automobiles that exist today "function as desired" unless they don't when something unexpected happens.
#72
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I spent many years in the Safety Field before going over to operations.
One of the first things I was taught and tried to change in the workplace is that there are no "accidents" we have incidents. Why this change in vocabulary, simply because for every event there is a cause. Things don't just happen as we like to think. All motor vehicle incidents can be traced to several causes that usually lead to a catastrophe.
From years of accident investigation I came to realize one thing, we the humans are behind incidents. The injured is not always the cause, but a break down of rule following and a general complacency leads to the majority of these events. This is very true on the highway. Road conditions, vehicle conditions still require the driver to adjust which we often do not do. Driver fatigue, impairment, inexperience will all be limited by technology soon. But the replies I see here remind me of the multiple training classes I was required to take for defensive driving. 100 % of drivers survived feel they are good drivers. If this was true we would see very few incidents? My guess is quite a few that have a negative view on this technology also drive 15-20 miles over the speed limit daily because they feel they are in total control. These are the same people that do not walk around a vehicle before backing out of a drive way, because we always know nothing is behind us??? The bottom line is daily all of us take a chance or risk when driving, when we look at our phone, change the radio station, or speed we are increasing the risk or chance of an incident. Multiply that by every other car on the road and you will see how this technology will be safer. Yes cars will still crash, but at such a major reduction in percentage.
One of the first things I was taught and tried to change in the workplace is that there are no "accidents" we have incidents. Why this change in vocabulary, simply because for every event there is a cause. Things don't just happen as we like to think. All motor vehicle incidents can be traced to several causes that usually lead to a catastrophe.
From years of accident investigation I came to realize one thing, we the humans are behind incidents. The injured is not always the cause, but a break down of rule following and a general complacency leads to the majority of these events. This is very true on the highway. Road conditions, vehicle conditions still require the driver to adjust which we often do not do. Driver fatigue, impairment, inexperience will all be limited by technology soon. But the replies I see here remind me of the multiple training classes I was required to take for defensive driving. 100 % of drivers survived feel they are good drivers. If this was true we would see very few incidents? My guess is quite a few that have a negative view on this technology also drive 15-20 miles over the speed limit daily because they feel they are in total control. These are the same people that do not walk around a vehicle before backing out of a drive way, because we always know nothing is behind us??? The bottom line is daily all of us take a chance or risk when driving, when we look at our phone, change the radio station, or speed we are increasing the risk or chance of an incident. Multiply that by every other car on the road and you will see how this technology will be safer. Yes cars will still crash, but at such a major reduction in percentage.
#73
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#74
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Um, didn't a cyber ransom attack just shut down major industries, medical centers, banks and other businesses all over the world (90+ countries including the US) just a week or so ago? 

Attention: We have just taken control of 10,000 Uber vehicles. Transfer $50 million in Bitcoin to this account within the next 15 minutes or your roadways will become a killing field.




Now, let's address the 90 deaths caused by human controlled motor-vehicles on the road across the US every day.
#75
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"Function as desired" is a tall order if a principal parameter of "desire" includes significant reduction in injury/collision risk with no loss of personal mobility as being promoted by the salesmen/hypsters for the technology.
Automobiles that exist today "function as desired" unless they don't when something unexpected happens.
Automobiles that exist today "function as desired" unless they don't when something unexpected happens.
Cars work fine... and we would have few "incidents" if only the rules and laws were followed.