Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Advocacy & Safety
Reload this Page >

Would a self driving car world make it safe for cyclists?

Notices
Advocacy & Safety Cyclists should expect and demand safe accommodation on every public road, just as do all other users. Discuss your bicycle advocacy and safety concerns here.

Would a self driving car world make it safe for cyclists?

Old 12-31-17, 08:53 PM
  #901  
Senior Member
 
tyrion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: San Diego, California
Posts: 4,076

Bikes: Velo Orange Piolet

Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2228 Post(s)
Liked 2,011 Times in 972 Posts
Originally Posted by Rollfast
Alll the po' folks getting the hand-me-downs and vintage Mustang, Camaro and Mopar Lovers aren't about to care much.
That's not exactly po' -- that will be the new generation of hipsters. Like those idiots that ride steel bikes.



Seriously, those muscle cars will always live on in the hands of aficionados. Even if they don't call themselves "aficionados". (not that there's anything wrong with calling oneself an "aficionado")
tyrion is offline  
Old 12-31-17, 09:08 PM
  #902  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Canada, PG BC
Posts: 3,849

Bikes: 27 speed ORYX with over 39,000Kms on it and another 14,000KMs with a BionX E-Assist on it

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1024 Post(s)
Liked 57 Times in 49 Posts
Originally Posted by Rollfast
Alll the po' folks getting the hand-me-downs and vintage Mustang, Camaro and Mopar Lovers aren't about to care much.
I'm sure there are still model "T" s being drive around on some Sundays...
350htrr is offline  
Old 12-31-17, 11:46 PM
  #903  
Senior Member
 
KD5NRH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Stephenville TX
Posts: 3,697

Bikes: 2010 Trek 7100

Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 697 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Originally Posted by 350htrr
Don't really understand what you are saying, are you saying racecar drivers aren't better drivers than the average Joe...?
Making left turns at regular intervals in one-way traffic, with no cross streets, they're far better. But as little as looking at how many of them wipe out quick on a road course will show how poorly that translates to even adding right turns.
KD5NRH is offline  
Old 01-01-18, 12:06 AM
  #904  
Senior Member
 
KD5NRH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Stephenville TX
Posts: 3,697

Bikes: 2010 Trek 7100

Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 697 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Originally Posted by Ninety5rpm
Uber/Lyft is already convenient and cheap enough to replace us as drivers when we're on vacation.
Really? How long will it take to get one at the Mule Ears Spring trailhead? Or how much will it cost to have one wait 5-6 hours at the Chimneys trailhead so you're not standing around in the high desert for the better part of a day waiting for your ride?

Not everybody is fascinated by packaged tours, and a large part of the appeal of activities like desert hiking is getting far away from people cheaply; for the Big Bend trails, I could do those for $100 round trip in my beater Saturn, carrying up to two other people and gear. Figure $120 to include an oil change, though it's at worst 1/3 of the oil change interval. Splitting that with one friend (pretty much necessary since it's a 7 hour drive each way) and maybe finding something fun and cheap on the way, we're at $60-75 each for as much as two days of mini-adventure.
How much would that cost in an Uber? Think there's ever going to be a Zipcar facility in a spot that sees maybe 3 carloads of hikers per day in the busy season?
KD5NRH is offline  
Old 01-01-18, 01:45 AM
  #905  
Senior Member
 
tyrion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: San Diego, California
Posts: 4,076

Bikes: Velo Orange Piolet

Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2228 Post(s)
Liked 2,011 Times in 972 Posts
I tend to think of things in terms of systems, so let me say this about that: self driving cars are coming and it's useful to think about the whole thing as a system.

This system can be trained, it will respond to what people say and do.

I think it's important that cyclists have a significant input into that system (for the good of humankind - that goes without saying, right?)

We can have plenty of input into those significant avenues if we want - take a step back and think about causes and effects -

HAPPY NEW YEAR YOU FILTHY ANIMALS!
tyrion is offline  
Old 01-01-18, 02:17 AM
  #906  
What happened?
 
Rollfast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Around here somewhere
Posts: 7,927

Bikes: 3 Rollfasts, 3 Schwinns, a Shelby and a Higgins Flightliner in a pear tree!

Mentioned: 57 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1835 Post(s)
Liked 292 Times in 255 Posts
Good show, old bean!
__________________
I don't know nothing, and I memorized it in school and got this here paper I'm proud of to show it.
Rollfast is offline  
Old 01-01-18, 04:34 PM
  #907  
Banned
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,341
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 959 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by KD5NRH
Really? How long will it take to get one at the Mule Ears Spring trailhead? Or how much will it cost to have one wait 5-6 hours at the Chimneys trailhead so you're not standing around in the high desert for the better part of a day waiting for your ride?

Not everybody is fascinated by packaged tours, and a large part of the appeal of activities like desert hiking is getting far away from people cheaply; for the Big Bend trails, I could do those for $100 round trip in my beater Saturn, carrying up to two other people and gear. Figure $120 to include an oil change, though it's at worst 1/3 of the oil change interval. Splitting that with one friend (pretty much necessary since it's a 7 hour drive each way) and maybe finding something fun and cheap on the way, we're at $60-75 each for as much as two days of mini-adventure.
How much would that cost in an Uber? Think there's ever going to be a Zipcar facility in a spot that sees maybe 3 carloads of hikers per day in the busy season?
I was thinking about vacations to cities. But for remote trips like that, renting a self-driving car would make more sense, probably at rates comparable to renting a human-driven car today. After all, the costs associated with renting an AV are about the same as the costs for renting a conventional human-driven car. I expect the self-driving RV rental business to be huge.
Ninety5rpm is offline  
Old 01-01-18, 08:10 PM
  #908  
Been Around Awhile
 
I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 30,011

Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked 1,567 Times in 1,062 Posts
Originally Posted by Ninety5rpm
After all, the costs associated with renting an AV are about the same as the costs for renting a conventional human-driven car.
Given that no rental AVs are available or even exist anywhere, how did you compute those costs?
I-Like-To-Bike is offline  
Old 01-01-18, 08:46 PM
  #909  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 2,977
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1638 Post(s)
Liked 741 Times in 495 Posts
Originally Posted by KD5NRH
Really? How long will it take to get one at the Mule Ears Spring trailhead? Or how much will it cost to have one wait 5-6 hours at the Chimneys trailhead so you're not standing around in the high desert for the better part of a day waiting for your ride?

Not everybody is fascinated by packaged tours, and a large part of the appeal of activities like desert hiking is getting far away from people cheaply; for the Big Bend trails, I could do those for $100 round trip in my beater Saturn, carrying up to two other people and gear. Figure $120 to include an oil change, though it's at worst 1/3 of the oil change interval. Splitting that with one friend (pretty much necessary since it's a 7 hour drive each way) and maybe finding something fun and cheap on the way, we're at $60-75 each for as much as two days of mini-adventure.
How much would that cost in an Uber? Think there's ever going to be a Zipcar facility in a spot that sees maybe 3 carloads of hikers per day in the busy season?
You will be able to buy and operate conventional vehicles for as far into the future you would care to. They will not become obsolete and go away.
02Giant is offline  
Old 01-01-18, 11:37 PM
  #910  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 6,025
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2520 Post(s)
Liked 753 Times in 532 Posts
Originally Posted by 350htrr
I'm sure there are still model "T" s being drive around on some Sundays...
There are. I met someone who owns one. Wasn't at a car show either. Just showed up with the thing at the Winco (supermarket) to do some shopping. I am going to go out on a limb and suggest that driving the equivalent of a 'Model T' to a supermarket in some highly regulated country like... Japan? Germany? I just don't think it would be possible. And in the main, people in those countries are the better for it! Say what you want, if you are lucky enough to find yourself in the 'Middle Class' in a country like Germany, there are about 15 ways that you simply CANNOT die prematurely from, ways that you have a fairly significant statistical chance of experiencing here in the good old USA. And you might think that's fine if you never are one of those people. But what if you are? America works far harder to protect the health and safety of a two week old fertilized ovum than it does the safety of a hard working, tax paying adult! Once self driving cars prove their mettle in the rest of the developed world, all other road going vehicles will be outlawed. Period. Immediately. There won't be any 'grace period, adjustment period, time to let the 250 million... ... honestly. This thread has been instructive. I know... I can see that this is hard for most of you... it really does, however, remain an open question as to whether or not, 100 years from now, we will still be accepting with equanimity the reality of 40,000 motorist deaths, 5,000 pedestrian deaths, 800+ cyclist deaths, due to the inability of a large percent of American drivers to devote full attention and responsibility to the task of driving. I personally do not think so! Just one more post and I really am done with this thread for good. My good.
Leisesturm is offline  
Old 01-01-18, 11:55 PM
  #911  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 6,025
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2520 Post(s)
Liked 753 Times in 532 Posts
Originally Posted by genec
The key words being... "a properly designed and programmed machine."

Sorry, but time and time again it has been shown that industry will take shortcuts to achieve profits... whether it is in not installing controlling hardware that will prevent train crashes, or installing software that will cripple a phone to suit the companies' MTBF, or in designing crash airbags with improper explosives such that they harm rather than protect.

While I tend to believe that self driving cars can be better drivers than a vast number of current human drivers... I also have no faith in industry at large, and the ability of business in general to f*** up technology for the sake of profit.

We really still are at the wait and see stage.

While I do believe in tech, I worked in tech long enough to see human made decisions kill viable products... and some of this was for the stupidest little business reasons. Oh the tales I could tell... SIGH
Undoubtedly you are correct. And? What? How does the reality that some bad actors will be at work in AV manufacturing and sales invalidate the premise that these vehicles will be introduced to the American marketplace sometime in the relatively near future??? It took decades for the air-bag debacle to come to light. I would see a point to your argument if, because of the air bag issue the entire U.S. vehicle fleet was made unregisterable pursuant to retrofit of DOT compliant equipment. But that isn't how this works. So you have no argument. There is no 'wait and see'. The waiting is over. These things are coming to a dealership near you, ready or not. Volkswagens decision to play fast and loose with U.S. 'Clean Air' laws has not stopped them from becoming the most successful car maker in 2017. Having to pay billions in damages ultimately will not hurt them significantly. That's Capitalism baby. It's also European style corporate culture. Volkswagen pays 11% of gross receipts in salaries. All salaries! Ford pays 50% of gross receipts just to the 11 highest paid individuals in the company! If Volkswagen had a product like the F-150 in their product line they would bank the profits. Ford just gives it all to the CEO and when they wind up facing bankruptcy, go to Washington for a bail-out. That's why the Big 3 aren't anywhere near the AV thing. And most of you lot are in the pockets of the Big 3. I guess a pocket is a nice, warm, dark place to hide from reality. Until someone shoves a hand into it.
Leisesturm is offline  
Old 01-01-18, 11:57 PM
  #912  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 6,025
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2520 Post(s)
Liked 753 Times in 532 Posts
Originally Posted by 02Giant
You will be able to buy and operate conventional vehicles for as far into the future you would care to. They will not become obsolete and go away.
That is what Genghis Khan said about horses...
Leisesturm is offline  
Old 01-02-18, 12:10 AM
  #913  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Bay Area, Calif.
Posts: 7,239
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 659 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 7 Times in 6 Posts
Originally Posted by Leisesturm
That is what Genghis Khan said about horses...
And if you really want to you can still go about your daily business using horses for transportation. A recent senatorial candidate gets to the polls that way and there are quite a few entire communities in the US that are dependent on horses for transportation - saw a family pull up to the McDonalds for breakfast that way.
prathmann is offline  
Old 01-02-18, 03:51 AM
  #914  
genec
 
genec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 27,079

Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2

Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13659 Post(s)
Liked 4,532 Times in 3,158 Posts
Originally Posted by Leisesturm
Undoubtedly you are correct. And? What? How does the reality that some bad actors will be at work in AV manufacturing and sales invalidate the premise that these vehicles will be introduced to the American marketplace sometime in the relatively near future??? It took decades for the air-bag debacle to come to light. I would see a point to your argument if, because of the air bag issue the entire U.S. vehicle fleet was made unregisterable pursuant to retrofit of DOT compliant equipment. But that isn't how this works. So you have no argument. There is no 'wait and see'. The waiting is over. These things are coming to a dealership near you, ready or not. Volkswagens decision to play fast and loose with U.S. 'Clean Air' laws has not stopped them from becoming the most successful car maker in 2017. Having to pay billions in damages ultimately will not hurt them significantly. That's Capitalism baby. It's also European style corporate culture. Volkswagen pays 11% of gross receipts in salaries. All salaries! Ford pays 50% of gross receipts just to the 11 highest paid individuals in the company! If Volkswagen had a product like the F-150 in their product line they would bank the profits. Ford just gives it all to the CEO and when they wind up facing bankruptcy, go to Washington for a bail-out. That's why the Big 3 aren't anywhere near the AV thing. And most of you lot are in the pockets of the Big 3. I guess a pocket is a nice, warm, dark place to hide from reality. Until someone shoves a hand into it.
Actually, ironically, GM has announced their participation in AVs, and plans to have cars on the road this year... of course bear in mind that GM also had the "first" electric cars out on the market... before they retrieved and destroyed them all.
genec is offline  
Old 01-02-18, 06:05 AM
  #915  
What happened?
 
Rollfast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Around here somewhere
Posts: 7,927

Bikes: 3 Rollfasts, 3 Schwinns, a Shelby and a Higgins Flightliner in a pear tree!

Mentioned: 57 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1835 Post(s)
Liked 292 Times in 255 Posts
Originally Posted by Leisesturm
That is what Genghis Khan said about horses...

He demanded shoveling and bags.
__________________
I don't know nothing, and I memorized it in school and got this here paper I'm proud of to show it.
Rollfast is offline  
Old 01-02-18, 08:08 AM
  #916  
Senior Member
 
KD5NRH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Stephenville TX
Posts: 3,697

Bikes: 2010 Trek 7100

Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 697 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Originally Posted by Ninety5rpm
I was thinking about vacations to cities. But for remote trips like that, renting a self-driving car would make more sense, probably at rates comparable to renting a human-driven car today.
Which just doubled the cost of the trip, and that's not counting the deposit.
KD5NRH is offline  
Old 01-02-18, 01:32 PM
  #917  
Banned
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,341
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 959 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by KD5NRH
Which just doubled the cost of the trip, and that's not counting the deposit.
What about garaging costs, insurance, tire wear, and other car-owning costs that vanish when you sell your beater?
Ninety5rpm is offline  
Old 01-02-18, 01:42 PM
  #918  
Been Around Awhile
 
I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 30,011

Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked 1,567 Times in 1,062 Posts
Originally Posted by Ninety5rpm
What about garaging costs, insurance, tire wear, and other car-owning costs that vanish when you sell your beater?
Those expenses, as well as all the other fixed and variable costs of owning, operating and maintaining a vehicle will NOT "vanish", they will still exist for the hypothetical owner of the hypothetical rental AV and will need to be included/recovered in the rental rate/fare for the customers of the rental vehicles of this hypothetical scheme.
I-Like-To-Bike is offline  
Old 01-02-18, 02:36 PM
  #919  
Banned
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,341
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 959 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
Those expenses, as well as all the other fixed and variable costs of owning, operating and maintaining a vehicle will NOT "vanish", they will still exist for the hypothetical owner of the hypothetical rental AV and will need to be included/recovered in the rental rate/fare for the customers of the rental vehicles of this hypothetical scheme.
Fair enough, but those costs will be much lower, because:
  • Only one car per X families instead of Y cars per family.
  • Insurance will be far lower.
  • Cost reductions due to consolidation.
  • Great parking cost reductions.
Ninety5rpm is offline  
Old 01-02-18, 02:40 PM
  #920  
genec
 
genec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 27,079

Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2

Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13659 Post(s)
Liked 4,532 Times in 3,158 Posts
Volvo backing down a bit from their earlier predictions of when they would be ready with an AV.

“On the journey, some of the questions that we thought were really difficult to answer have been answered much faster than we expected,” Marcus Rothoff, the carmaker’s autonomous driving program director, told the publication. “And in some areas, we are finding that there were more issues to dig into and solve than we expected.” Namely, price. Rothoff said the company was loath to nail down the cost of its sensor set before it knew how it would work, so Volvo couldn’t quite determine what people would pay for the privilege in riding in or owning one. CEO Hakan Samuelsson has said self-driving functionality could add about $10,000 to the sticker price.

The scale-backs haven’t dampened the enthusiasm for money-throwing. Venture capital firm CB Insights estimates self-driving car startups—ones building autonomous driving software, driver safety tools, and vehicle-to-vehicle communications, and stockpiling and crunching data while doing it—have sucked in more than $3 billion in funding this year.

He’s not the only killjoy. “Technology developers are coming to appreciate that the last 1 percent is harder than the first 99 percent,” says Karl Iagnemma, CEO of Nutonomy, a Boston-based self-driving car company acquired by automotive supplier Delphi this fall. “Compared to last 1 percent, the first 99 percent is a walk in the park.”
https://www.wired.com/story/self-dri...rs-challenges/
genec is offline  
Old 01-02-18, 03:14 PM
  #921  
What happened?
 
Rollfast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Around here somewhere
Posts: 7,927

Bikes: 3 Rollfasts, 3 Schwinns, a Shelby and a Higgins Flightliner in a pear tree!

Mentioned: 57 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1835 Post(s)
Liked 292 Times in 255 Posts
I can't even close my eyes as a passenger...it bugs me, so why do I want a car I have no control of?
__________________
I don't know nothing, and I memorized it in school and got this here paper I'm proud of to show it.
Rollfast is offline  
Old 01-02-18, 03:19 PM
  #922  
Banned
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,341
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 959 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by genec
Volvo backing down a bit from their earlier predictions of when they would be ready with an AV.



https://www.wired.com/story/self-dri...rs-challenges/
“Compared to last 1 percent, the first 99 percent is a walk in the park.”

This is another plus for car hailing services as the primary user of AVs.

Identifying a pickup/drop point for each address on public streets is much easier than figuring out how to navigate parking lots and other private areas. That eliminates much of the last 1%.
Ninety5rpm is offline  
Old 01-02-18, 03:29 PM
  #923  
Banned
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,341
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 959 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Rollfast
I can't even close my eyes as a passenger...it bugs me, so why do I want a car I have no control of?
Lack of control is obviously not why anyone would want one. But it's not about wanting one to own. It's about wanting a cheaper ride.

The question to ponder is this:
  • Do you want a Lyft/Uber human-driven ride for $12? Or an AV ride for $3?
Ninety5rpm is offline  
Old 01-02-18, 03:30 PM
  #924  
genec
 
genec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 27,079

Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2

Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13659 Post(s)
Liked 4,532 Times in 3,158 Posts
Originally Posted by Ninety5rpm
“Compared to last 1 percent, the first 99 percent is a walk in the park.”

This is another plus for car hailing services as the primary user of AVs.

Identifying a pickup/drop point for each address on public streets is much easier than figuring out how to navigate parking lots and other private areas. That eliminates much of the last 1%.
I suspect they are not talking about the last 1% of the journey, but the last 1% of what they consider "necessary control."

But yeah, even a specific sidewalk location that makes sense to a human, would be hard to explain to an AV... "I'll be by the big bushes at the end of the sidewalk, near the brick lamp."

I recall that when I visited Ensenada from time to time, I would tell friends to meet me at the plaza of the big heads...

https://www.google.com/maps/@31.8611...2!8i6656?hl=en

Easy to find if you are a human.

Of course, realistically, if you are calling an AV from a phone, no doubt there will be a "I am right here" button.
genec is offline  
Old 01-02-18, 05:32 PM
  #925  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 2,977
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1638 Post(s)
Liked 741 Times in 495 Posts
Originally Posted by Leisesturm
There are. I met someone who owns one. Wasn't at a car show either. Just showed up with the thing at the Winco (supermarket) to do some shopping. I am going to go out on a limb and suggest that driving the equivalent of a 'Model T' to a supermarket in some highly regulated country like... Japan? Germany? I just don't think it would be possible. And in the main, people in those countries are the better for it! Say what you want, if you are lucky enough to find yourself in the 'Middle Class' in a country like Germany, there are about 15 ways that you simply CANNOT die prematurely from, ways that you have a fairly significant statistical chance of experiencing here in the good old USA. And you might think that's fine if you never are one of those people. But what if you are? America works far harder to protect the health and safety of a two week old fertilized ovum than it does the safety of a hard working, tax paying adult! Once self driving cars prove their mettle in the rest of the developed world, all other road going vehicles will be outlawed. Period. Immediately. There won't be any 'grace period, adjustment period, time to let the 250 million... ... honestly. This thread has been instructive. I know... I can see that this is hard for most of you... it really does, however, remain an open question as to whether or not, 100 years from now, we will still be accepting with equanimity the reality of 40,000 motorist deaths, 5,000 pedestrian deaths, 800+ cyclist deaths, due to the inability of a large percent of American drivers to devote full attention and responsibility to the task of driving. I personally do not think so! Just one more post and I really am done with this thread for good. My good.
You're funny and apparently delirious.

Just what in the past would be the precedent for such an action?

A move as such would be political suicide. Some think the gun lobby has Congress by the knads, just wait until the masses feel their vehicles would be taken from them. You ain't seen nothing yet.

More than 450k deaths a year from smoking and it's still a legal product. You really think the 45k deaths a year from autos will have an effect?

Self driving vehicles are coming, They will not take over the automotive world.
02Giant is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.