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Would a self driving car world make it safe for cyclists?

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Would a self driving car world make it safe for cyclists?

Old 03-19-18, 04:14 PM
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The car had a human driver, the bicycle had a human operator as well .... Blame The Humans!!
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Old 03-19-18, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by noisebeam
zero evidence as to fault.
+1
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Old 03-19-18, 05:18 PM
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Old 03-19-18, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Maelochs
Lol. yeah. This will end AVs the way the first automobile fatality stopped owner-operated cars.
+1. There WILL be many more. BUT, after awhile when it's proven, that AV can be "better than human drivers" it will still take off. For commercial vehicles first, but later for all vehicle's... It's practically a given...
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Old 03-19-18, 06:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Maelochs
Thanks. I wonder if she was coming out of the park on the right ... across the way doesn't seem like much to interest a pedestrian. Of course, she could have been walking an established route and habitually cut across right there .... Not enough curve in the road to hide a pedestrian or a car, it looks to me,
Edit, the news stories say she was crossing the street on foot from west to east. I’m not sure this has much to do with cycling. I see pedestrians crossing mid-block all the time to avoid walking the half block to the intersection to use the cross-walk.

https://m.imgur.com/tc9pazj\

https://m.imgur.com/sjwVXZe

Last edited by Dunbar; 03-19-18 at 06:46 PM.
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Old 03-19-18, 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted by noisebeam
It happened Sunday night at a location on northbound N. Mill Ave between the Red Mountain freeway bridge and Washington/Curry.
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.4367.../data=!3m1!1e3
Odd that they constructed that "X" of a pavement in the median looking quite like a walkway and then post signs prohibiting walking on them.
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Old 03-19-18, 06:09 PM
  #1982  
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Seems they are not sure the death was a pedestrian or cyclist

https://www.autoblog.com/2018/03/19/...olvo-fatality/

Seems even worse since the car failed to detect either the walking woman or the bicycle.


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Last edited by CB HI; 03-19-18 at 06:13 PM.
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Old 03-19-18, 06:34 PM
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Terrible tragedy for something we expect so much better. This was still going through a city test for which it failed.

Having said that nobody cares about the thousands of deaths caused by human-driven vehicles from which they all passed their tests. And some are on the road driving with suspended licences.
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Old 03-19-18, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by CB HI
Seems even worse since the car failed to detect either the walking woman or the bicycle.
You don't know that.
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Old 03-19-18, 06:42 PM
  #1985  
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Originally Posted by Hoopdriver
Odd that they constructed that "X" of a pavement in the median looking quite like a walkway and then post signs prohibiting walking on them.
Not odd at all. In the desert all kinds of landscaping decorations are used in place of grass. Pavers included.

Note on far right the 'worn/dusty' area leading into the X from the road.
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.4362...7i13312!8i6656

Also note from aerial view the path on the east side leading to the worn part of the X .
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.4363.../data=!3m1!1e3

I have walked and cycled very often in the area for years, but there are better places to cross (there is an underpass too)
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Old 03-19-18, 06:43 PM
  #1986  
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since she was walking a bicycle, that pretty much rules out the scenario where she just walked out in front of the car in my mind. That can be pretty tough. I assume they have good video

Okay, so I'm not sure if she really was walking the bike or not. Maybe she was riding. I'm guessing the people in the car weren't paying attention, so they aren't going to know until they look at video
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Old 03-19-18, 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by noisebeam
You don't know that.
True, maybe the Uber AV car did detect the woman and or bicycle before it ran them down.
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Old 03-19-18, 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by noisebeam
Not odd at all. In the desert all kinds of landscaping decorations are used in place of grass. Pavers included.
It does seem odd to have signs that say “use cross walk” when there’s no obvious way to get to the cross-walk due to the landscaping. Not to mention you’re on a median so it’s not clear to me what you’re supposed to do once you get to the cross-walk since you’re already in the middle of the street.
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Old 03-19-18, 07:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Dunbar
It does seem odd to have signs that say “use cross walk” when there’s no obvious way to get to the cross-walk due to the landscaping. Not to mention you’re on a median so it’s not clear to me what you’re supposed to do once you get to the cross-walk since you’re already in the middle of the street.
One is never supposed to jaywalk to the median in the first place. Medians are on many streets here and are often landscaped with pavers. The cross walk is at Washington/Curry. There is also an underpass under Mill just south of Red Mountain freeway. I have crossed using both the crosswalk and underpass dozens of times.
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Old 03-19-18, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by 02Giant
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That's OK, there lots of other fan-bois about to spout the promoter's standard excuse, "it was the driver's fault" or "it was the pedestrian's fault" or maybe as close as an admission as anyone will ever get from these tools "you have to crack a couple of eggs when making an omelet."
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Old 03-19-18, 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
That's OK, there lots of other fan-bois about to spout the promoter's standard excuse, "it was the driver's fault" or "it was the pedestrian's fault" or maybe as close as an admission as anyone will ever get from these tools "you have to crack a couple of eggs when making an omelet."
Really...? Yes, even one death is too many. But, when compared to 40,000 deaths a year and maybe a million injuries per year, from humans driving, if AV driven vehicles reduce it even 10%, that would be a HUGE difference in my book... Want to do the numbers...? Wait, I will do them for you. 4,000 lives saved per year, 100,000 lives spared injury per year... what about 10 years, what about the 100 years or so that vehicles been around, an astounding number would pop up, "IF" you want to do those numbers... Come on, do the numbers... Wait, I will do them for you, 10 years, add a 0, that's 40,000 and 1,000,000, for the 100 years add 2 0's, that's 400,00 and 10,000,000... and those are the numbers that could/would be saved, 10%...

Last edited by 350htrr; 03-19-18 at 07:44 PM. Reason: add stuff
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Old 03-19-18, 07:39 PM
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Originally Posted by noisebeam
One is never supposed to jaywalk to the median in the first place. Medians are on many streets here and are often landscaped with pavers. The cross walk is at Washington/Curry. There is also an underpass under Mill just south of Red Mountain freeway. I have crossed using both the crosswalk and underpass dozens of times.
OK, but that gets back to the point of why there would be paved area of the median that looks a lot like sidewalk in the first place? Why not just leave it landscaped with gravel and plants? It just seems like a strange design decision. Look at this Google Maps link and tell me that doesn’t look like a sidewalk?

https://www.google.com/maps/@33.4362...7i13312!8i6656

Last edited by Dunbar; 03-19-18 at 07:43 PM.
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Old 03-19-18, 07:55 PM
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The police are saying the woman was walking her bike across the street from the center median (west-to-east). It seems like she may have just walked out in front of the Uber self-driving car while taking a shortcut.

https://www.google.com/maps/@33.4362.../data=!3m1!1e3

https://www.google.com/maps/@33.4362...7i13312!8i6656
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Old 03-19-18, 07:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Dunbar
OK, but that gets back to the point of why there would be paved area of the median that looks a lot like sidewalk in the first place? Why not just leave it landscaped with gravel and plants? It just seems like a strange design decision. Look at this Google Maps link and tell me that doesn’t look like a sidewalk?

https://www.google.com/maps/@33.4362...7i13312!8i6656
Same view I posted in #1876.
It is not a sidewalk as there is no curb cut and sidewalks in this area are concrete. It is pretty obvious in person when on the sidewalk looking toward the median.
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Old 03-19-18, 07:59 PM
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Maybe she looked left first not realizing it is one way.
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Old 03-19-18, 08:04 PM
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No amount of automation is going to make a 4000 pound car stop instantaneously if someone walks out in front of it. The accident rate with robot cars, no matter how good they are, can never be zero if the other road users aren't also machines.
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Old 03-19-18, 08:14 PM
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So... lady steps off of a center median nowhere near an intersection, at 10 o'clock at night, and gets hit by a car. Doesn't matter if it was being driven by a person or a computer, she was gonna get hit.
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Old 03-19-18, 08:19 PM
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Correct, but we don't know yet if that was the case or not. Given the information provided it could be an error by either or both parties.

Rules on crossing where there is not a cross walk. If reports are correct (they may not be) that she was crossing road then it was in violation of C:
https://www.azleg.gov/ars/28/00793.htm

Even at a crosswalk one can not step in front of traffic if driver would be unable to yield in time:
https://www.azleg.gov/ars/28/00792.htm
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Old 03-19-18, 08:23 PM
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Originally Posted by DrIsotope
So... lady steps off of a center median nowhere near an intersection, at 10 o'clock at night, and gets hit by a car. Doesn't matter if it was being driven by a person or a computer, she was gonna get hit.
That is my suspicion also, but we don't have the facts. Just early reports and speculation.

A computer driver with night 'vision' better than a human (lidar) would be more likely to avoid collision in this case as it would 'see' the person on the median in the dark and anticipate a crossing when a human could not.
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Old 03-19-18, 08:24 PM
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There are great numbers of pedestrians that believe that having the "right of way," whether in a crosswalk or not, forms some sort of impenetrable barrier around them-- I've watched people step out in front of any number of vehicles (including bikes,) presumably because they think the vehicles "have to stop." I'm not here claiming that most drivers aren't a-holes, but most pedestrians are every bit as distracted, and can be at fault for getting hit about half the time.
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