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Would a self driving car world make it safe for cyclists?

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Would a self driving car world make it safe for cyclists?

Old 03-19-18, 08:25 PM
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The only way this is the car's fault is if the car chose to take or failed to take action after observing the pedestrian.
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Old 03-19-18, 08:29 PM
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There is more data on this incident than any other auto-ped/cyclist collision.
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Old 03-19-18, 09:42 PM
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Originally Posted by noisebeam
There is more data on this incident than any other auto-ped/cyclist collision.
Who has access and control of all of it before it gets released, if it gets released unedited? Certainly not the state of Arizona where the governor lets the AV promoters use his constituents as unpaid crash test dummies.
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Old 03-19-18, 09:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Kontact
The only way this is the car's fault is if the car chose to take or failed to take action after observing the pedestrian.
The Force is strong among the fan-bois.
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Old 03-19-18, 09:53 PM
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
Who has access and control of all of it before it gets released
This incident has at minimum all the same data potential available as the same incident occurring without automated control. For example the police will interview the human driver and tire marks will be evaluated. Local video surveillance will be checked, witnesses will be requested, etc.
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Old 03-19-18, 10:07 PM
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Originally Posted by noisebeam
This incident has at minimum all the same data potential available as the same incident occurring without automated control. For example the police will interview the human driver and tire marks will be evaluated. Local video surveillance will be checked, witnesses will be requested, etc.
Will the police have access to unedited data about the operation of the Uber vehicle's software/hardware and video if it exists? Or did the Az governor give all the AV promoters a pass on providing any info about AV operations in the state unless it is a good news press release suitable for exciting the AV fan-bois?
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Old 03-19-18, 10:14 PM
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
The Force is strong among the fan-bois.
I'm not really a fan. But people are talking about fault while forgetting what fault is and what an accident is.
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Old 03-19-18, 10:38 PM
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Two basic premises of driving.
  1. Expect people to do stupid things.
  2. Slow down and move over, so if someone does a stupid thing, one has created a safety buffer.
Hopefully people are pouring over the data now to see what went wrong.



Was the person walking parallel to the road and turned?
Was the person acting like they were just waiting for the car to pass?
Was the person walking towards the road, and never stopped?
Suicide by Uber?


Also, how much reaction time did the car have? How was the traffic on the road? In many cases, it might be easier to move over into the opposite lane than actually stop... except when that is the exact opposite of what one should do
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Old 03-19-18, 11:19 PM
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What a sickening thread this is. Immediate assumption by the majority: it was the victim’s fault.

In reality, it is a wake-up call for the dolts rushing ahead to put this technology out before it is ready.
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Old 03-19-18, 11:32 PM
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Originally Posted by avole
What a sickening thread this is. Immediate assumption by the majority: it was the victimís fault.

In reality, it is a wake-up call for the dolts rushing ahead to put this technology out before it is ready.
It isn't necessarily anyone's "fault". Americans sometimes seem so hung up on who to blame.

You seem to be assuming that anyone not immediately blaming the car must be blaming something else. That isn't logically true.
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Old 03-19-18, 11:42 PM
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Originally Posted by DrIsotope
So... lady steps off of a center median nowhere near an intersection, at 10 o'clock at night, and gets hit by a car. Doesn't matter if it was being driven by a person or a computer, she was gonna get hit.
Maybe. But even Uber realizes that that won't stand up to the court of public opinion. They've pulled the rest of the fleet off the roads. The rest will fall in line soon after. Good riddance. It was too much to hope that AV's would be the answer. Oh well. I've done ok against humans for the last 50 years, I think I can keep outsmarting them for at least another 50. The rest of you I'm not so sure. Some of the stories you tell. Yikes.
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Old 03-19-18, 11:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Leisesturm
Maybe. But even Uber realizes that that won't stand up to the court of public opinion. They've pulled the rest of the fleet off the roads. The rest will fall in line soon after. Good riddance. It was too much to hope that AV's would be the answer. Oh well. I've done ok against humans for the last 50 years, I think I can keep outsmarting them for at least another 50. The rest of you I'm not so sure. Some of the stories you tell. Yikes.
Are you predicting the end of the self driving car?

For two years? Five? Forever?
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Old 03-20-18, 01:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Leisesturm
Maybe. But even Uber realizes that that won't stand up to the court of public opinion. They've pulled the rest of the fleet off the roads. The rest will fall in line soon after. Good riddance. It was too much to hope that AV's would be the answer. Oh well. I've done ok against humans for the last 50 years, I think I can keep outsmarting them for at least another 50. The rest of you I'm not so sure. Some of the stories you tell. Yikes.
If it had just been another human driver, this would hardly have made local news.

Uber, and it is national news.

We'll have to see the accident analysis, but I think Uber could, and should have done better.

The advantage of the autonomous vehicle is that it should have had a better view of the scene than a human driver. Well, hopefully it can use IR, sonar, reflected light, more look-ahead, motion detection, etc.
But, what it has to do is to start predicting the human's actions, and that is tough. But, again, making a buffer will help.

And, Uber shouldn't be given a free pass... "stupid pedestrian's fault".

Many accidents are caused by a stupid action by one person plus poor defensive actions by another.
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Old 03-20-18, 01:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Kontact
It isn't necessarily anyone's "fault". Americans sometimes seem so hung up on who to blame.

You seem to be assuming that anyone not immediately blaming the car must be blaming something else. That isn't logically true.
Yes, it is someone's fault, probably the software designers and programmers who quite probably haven't taken every situation into account, not to mention the company owners and shareholders who put pressure to get the technology out before it is really understood or ready.

And I disagree also. The Americans can be quick to blame others, but never themselves. A little humility would go a long way.
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Old 03-20-18, 03:12 AM
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Originally Posted by AlexanderLS
I have no reason to believe she wasn't simply riding her bike when the vehicle slammed right into her from behind.
Dude, if you are going to make stuff up, why not say she jumped down off a rainbow unicorn pegasus in front of the car.

The only information that's been released is pretty clear---the lady was walking and pushing a bike, it was Sunday night around 10 , she was crossing a multi-lane road, she was in between the highway overpass and Washington street, nowhere near a crosswalk. The stretch of road has two streetlamps at one end, and two more each maybe 50 yards apart, heading towards the intersection. We don't yet know where along that stretch she was hit. That's the facts.

You can make up any crap you want but it doesn't help the lady who died or anyone else.

There is a ton of data here. video, maybe Lidar, accelerometers, GPS .... no one knows what happened except the guy (or girl) behind the wheel and whoever has viewed the video ... but whatever happened it had to have happened fast enough that the human driver could not react.

If you look at google street view there are a bunch of bushes on the west side of the road there---maybe she stepped out of the bushes. Or maybe the driver deliberately ran her down, or maybe aliens did it with a magic pedestrian-crushing way and blamed the car, or maybe Anything ... but making stuff up, like saying "she was riding her bike," is dishonest and unhelpful.

Last edited by BillyD; 03-20-18 at 01:30 PM. Reason: Name-calling.
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Old 03-20-18, 05:01 AM
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I cannot see the other side of the sign but the 'Use crosswalk" sign seems to be facing across the street (east) to tell people on the sidewalk not to cross---as though planners didn't plan for people to be on the other side.

Still I could see hoe people would use that as a shortcut. There is a footpath starting right near the underpass to the next road east which is marked on the map, so obviously people are walking across there frequently.

None of that addresses any iof the fundamental issues. We just have to wait.
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Old 03-20-18, 05:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Maelochs
Dude, if you are going to make stuff up, why not say she jumped down off a rainbow unicorn pegasus in front of the car.

There is a ton of data here. video, maybe Lidar, accelerometers, GPS .... no one knows what happened except the guy (or girl) behind the wheel and whoever has viewed the video ... but whatever happened it had to have happened fast enough that the human driver could not react

Sorry reality won't conform to your agenda ... but when you come here and tell lies to everyone it is pretty freaking disrespectful and really casts doubts on anything else you might ever say here.
Pot calling the kettle black...

Maybe, the driver was distracted?
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Old 03-20-18, 05:43 AM
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Originally Posted by 02Giant
Pot calling the kettle black...

Maybe, the driver was distracted?
And if the driver could not react fast enough because of being distracted?

Read the whole thread, and all my posts in it. Read the other posts in the other thread about this topic. Then, if you still want to pick at a single word in a single post for not saying everything that could possibly be said about everything everywhere through all time ... I will ignore you as I tend to ignore people who just want to fight.
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Old 03-20-18, 06:37 AM
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Originally Posted by CB HI
A pedestrian this time, can cyclist be far behind?

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ash-in-arizona

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/19/uber...port-says.html

Or was she a cyclist?


.
Don't really know why I continue to come here. I was hoping to maybe find more information as to what actually happened.

Instead, I find knee jerk reaction without any data.


Don't know why I expected any different this time.
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Old 03-20-18, 06:43 AM
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Well, one of the threads discussing this has a lot of really informative google-earth maps. The rest is the same pre-packaged biased BS, but .... there is some real information here.
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Old 03-20-18, 06:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Kontact
It isn't necessarily anyone's "fault". Americans sometimes seem so hung up on who to blame.

You seem to be assuming that anyone not immediately blaming the car must be blaming something else. That isn't logically true.
There really isn't such a thing as an automobile accident; they are automobile collisions. There is a cause or causes for automobile collisions. Somebody, or multiple somebodies bear responsibility for virtually every collision, whether it is human error by the driver of the vehicle(s) or the pedestrian or cyclist. That human error makes up about 94% of collisions.

The majority of the remainder is a mechanical failure, either a manufacturing, design, or maintenance failure, which again gets back to somebody being at fault.

Absent a deer jumping in front of a car (which would be the deer's fault) virtually every accident is the result of human error.

This accident was somebody's fault, the pedestrian, the human operator, the programming, problems with adequacly of the cameras, lidar etc. People will parse the data, and we'll likely find out the fault or combination of faults for this tragedy.

But its impossible to say from the data presented here who is at fault. So while it's not helpful to blindly speculate about fault: i also don't think it is helpful to just say accidents are unavoidable, and sh*t happens.
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Old 03-20-18, 06:49 AM
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Originally Posted by avole
Yes, it is someone's fault, probably the software designers and programmers who quite probably haven't taken every situation into account, not to mention the company owners and shareholders who put pressure to get the technology out before it is really understood or ready.

And I disagree also. The Americans can be quick to blame others, but never themselves. A little humility would go a long way.
For it to be the software engineer's fault, it ALSO has to be the driver's fault, because you're claiming that both the car and the guy behind the wheel didn't notice/ignored/purposely hit the victim.

And while that scenario of both drivers being at fault is possible, I don't see why you have such a strong belief that multiple drivers being at fault is the most likely. If the car had two humans in it with brakes, would that shake your beliefs?
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Old 03-20-18, 06:55 AM
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The police reports say the car was in auto mode.

I'm not talking about multiple drivers. You clearly do not understand how businesses work.
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Old 03-20-18, 07:00 AM
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Originally Posted by merlinextraligh
There really isn't such a thing as an automobile accident; they are automobile collisions. There is a cause or causes for automobile collisions. Somebody, or multiple somebodies bear responsibility for virtually every collision, whether it is human error by the driver of the vehicle(s) or the pedestrian or cyclist. That human error makes up about 94% of collisions.

The majority of the remainder is a mechanical failure, either a manufacturing, design, or maintenance failure, which again gets back to somebody being at fault.

Absent a deer jumping in front of a car (which would be the deer's fault) virtually every accident is the result of human error.

This accident was somebody's fault, the pedestrian, the human operator, the programming, problems with adequacly of the cameras, lidar etc. People will parse the data, and we'll likely find out the fault or combination of faults for this tragedy.

But its impossible to say from the data presented here who is at fault. So while it's not helpful to blindly speculate about fault: i also don't think it is helpful to just say accidents are unavoidable, and sh*t happens.
Error, yes. But people are talking about fault in terms of negligence, not simple error.

In this case, what if the pedestrian simple tripped on something and fell into the roadway? Who is "at fault"? Her, or whoever left the trip hazard?


A certain percentage of accidents are unavoidable - that isn't the same as saying "shi*t happens", it is just an acknowledgment that the interactions of environment, senses, mechanical systems and judgement between multiple parties is never going to yield 100% perfect outcomes. People are fallible - no matter how hard they try not to be. The basis of finding fault is to pretend that people could be perfect if they wanted to be, and everyone who slips up did so as a willful act. I think that's foolish.
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Old 03-20-18, 07:03 AM
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Originally Posted by avole
The police reports say the car was in auto mode.

I'm not talking about multiple drivers. You clearly do not understand how businesses work.
I said nothing about businesses - it doesn't sound like you understand how auto mode works.

I pointed out that both the robot AND the man behind the wheel simultaneously failed to see and avoid the victim, since both had eyes on the road and the ability to control brakes and steering. "Auto mode" did not take away the driver's ability to react - that's his whole job as a test driver.
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