Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Advocacy & Safety
Reload this Page >

Would a self driving car world make it safe for cyclists?

Notices
Advocacy & Safety Cyclists should expect and demand safe accommodation on every public road, just as do all other users. Discuss your bicycle advocacy and safety concerns here.

Would a self driving car world make it safe for cyclists?

Old 03-20-18, 11:21 AM
  #2076  
Senior Member
 
jefnvk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Metro Detroit/AA
Posts: 8,207

Bikes: 2016 Novara Mazama

Mentioned: 63 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3640 Post(s)
Liked 81 Times in 51 Posts
The reality of the matter? You step out in front of a vehicle, there is a physical limit where nothing will stop you from being run over. IME, emergency braking systems take around 0.6-0.8 seconds from the first notification of a situation til the time they achieve full braking and slow the car by 10MPH in an emergency situation. A human isn't even reacting in that amount of time, according to this: https://copradar.com/redlight/factors/IEA2000_ABS51.pdf.

That combination of time and speed means if you step out in front of a vehicle moving 40MPH, 40' ahead of it, you are still getting clipped in the range of 30MPH with an autonomous system. With a human driver, you're lucky if they have even let off the gas if you step out 58' in front of them, and are hit at 40MPH.
jefnvk is offline  
Old 03-20-18, 11:21 AM
  #2077  
Arizona Dessert
 
noisebeam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: AZ
Posts: 15,030

Bikes: Cannondale SuperSix, Lemond Poprad. Retired: Jamis Sputnik, Centurion LeMans Fixed, Diamond Back ascent ex

Mentioned: 76 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5345 Post(s)
Liked 2,169 Times in 1,288 Posts
Originally Posted by InOmaha
Yep. The lady was at fault. Just like the little kid who will chase a ball out into the street will be at fault, and the puppy that runs into the street, and the deer that crosses, and any other number of things that decide to cross the street at places not marked as a crosswalk. In residential neighborhoods like mine, every year the streets get packed with cabin fever kids when the first nice days occur. Everyone who's been watching TV for 4 months is suddenly breaking out bikes and playing ball. And the speed limit of 25 is much, much too fast.


So how will AV adjust? Because they will have to adjust. Going the speed limit of 25 with road blinders on will not be an acceptable corporate response when there are kids milling around driveways playing ball. The car will need to recognize this all too common phenomenon and pick up ball movement and kids in driveways and yards as suggested cues. The car will have to watch from house to house and be able to determine there are too many people out to justify going the maximum posted speed limit.


.
I strongly suspect AVs already are trained for this residential street scenario. Their sensors cover well off street and if they 'see' a potential hazard that could move into street they are more ready than a human. The Waymo that drives down my 25mph street usually is going less than 25.
noisebeam is offline  
Old 03-20-18, 11:49 AM
  #2078  
Senior Member
 
jefnvk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Metro Detroit/AA
Posts: 8,207

Bikes: 2016 Novara Mazama

Mentioned: 63 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3640 Post(s)
Liked 81 Times in 51 Posts
Originally Posted by noisebeam
I strongly suspect AVs already are trained for this residential street scenario. Their sensors cover well off street and if they 'see' a potential hazard that could move into street they are more ready than a human. The Waymo that drives down my 25mph street usually is going less than 25.
There is only so much "seeing" that can happen, though. There is lots of shrubbery in that vicinity, depending on where the woman was exactly, that could have easily concealed her to both the eye and computer.
jefnvk is offline  
Old 03-20-18, 11:56 AM
  #2079  
Senior Member
 
Maelochs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 15,479

Bikes: 2015 Workswell 066, 2017 Workswell 093, 2014 Dawes Sheila, 1983 Cannondale 500, 1984 Raleigh Olympian, 2007 Cannondale Rize 4, 2017 Fuji Sportif 1 LE

Mentioned: 144 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7648 Post(s)
Liked 3,464 Times in 1,830 Posts
Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
You know that the collision was unavoidable; how do you know that alleged fact other than believing your own imaginary speculation?
Maybe you could read the available information sometime. Maybe not.

I know you and facts are not on friendly terms ...not trying to cause any problems for you.
Maelochs is offline  
Old 03-20-18, 11:57 AM
  #2080  
Arizona Dessert
 
noisebeam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: AZ
Posts: 15,030

Bikes: Cannondale SuperSix, Lemond Poprad. Retired: Jamis Sputnik, Centurion LeMans Fixed, Diamond Back ascent ex

Mentioned: 76 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5345 Post(s)
Liked 2,169 Times in 1,288 Posts
Originally Posted by jefnvk
There is only so much "seeing" that can happen, though. There is lots of shrubbery in that vicinity, depending on where the woman was exactly, that could have easily concealed her to both the eye and computer.
Of course. If someone steps out from behind a parked truck, no one and no computer can prepare for that beyond assuming every gap will have a hazard popping out which would prevent travel down the road over walking speed.

Technology will be better able to see thru bushes at night than a human - for example with IR cameras.

A computer will be able to track a dozen kids playing in the street whereas a human will at best be able to monitor only a few.
noisebeam is offline  
Old 03-20-18, 11:59 AM
  #2081  
Senior Member
 
Maelochs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 15,479

Bikes: 2015 Workswell 066, 2017 Workswell 093, 2014 Dawes Sheila, 1983 Cannondale 500, 1984 Raleigh Olympian, 2007 Cannondale Rize 4, 2017 Fuji Sportif 1 LE

Mentioned: 144 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7648 Post(s)
Liked 3,464 Times in 1,830 Posts
Originally Posted by AlexanderLS
My statement wasn't me making anything up.
Except the part about the car ramming a cyclist from behind ... but other than that Tiny and totally made-up bit ... L. O. L.

Originally Posted by AlexanderLS
You are now ignored.
Awesome. One less of you to deal with. Thank you.
Maelochs is offline  
Old 03-20-18, 12:03 PM
  #2082  
Been Around Awhile
 
I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 29,956

Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked 1,526 Times in 1,039 Posts
Originally Posted by Maelochs
Maybe you could read the available information sometime. Maybe not.

I know you and facts are not on friendly terms ...not trying to cause any problems for you.
You have some information that the investigation is complete and conclusions issued by the investigative organizations?
I-Like-To-Bike is offline  
Old 03-20-18, 12:04 PM
  #2083  
Senior Member
 
Maelochs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 15,479

Bikes: 2015 Workswell 066, 2017 Workswell 093, 2014 Dawes Sheila, 1983 Cannondale 500, 1984 Raleigh Olympian, 2007 Cannondale Rize 4, 2017 Fuji Sportif 1 LE

Mentioned: 144 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7648 Post(s)
Liked 3,464 Times in 1,830 Posts
Originally Posted by noisebeam
Of course. If someone steps out from behind a parked truck, no one and no computer can prepare for that beyond assuming every gap will have a hazard popping out which would prevent travel down the road over walking speed.

Technology will be better able to see thru bushes at night than a human - for example with IR cameras.

A computer will be able to track a dozen kids playing in the street whereas a human will at best be able to monitor only a few.
Pretty much, the computer, when properly programmed, can do what a human can do ... better.

That is why all those super-high-tech Air Force jets use computers ... no human is quick enough to keep a flying wing stable, but computers can ... and do.

The roads won't be accident-free ... but computers can access and process more data, faster, and can react faster and more precisely.

Really sucks that this lady got hit and died. Really does. But ... it has nothing to do with AV operation, and everything to do with humans' inability to maneuver safely and sensibly through the world.
Maelochs is offline  
Old 03-20-18, 12:05 PM
  #2084  
Senior Member
 
Maelochs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 15,479

Bikes: 2015 Workswell 066, 2017 Workswell 093, 2014 Dawes Sheila, 1983 Cannondale 500, 1984 Raleigh Olympian, 2007 Cannondale Rize 4, 2017 Fuji Sportif 1 LE

Mentioned: 144 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7648 Post(s)
Liked 3,464 Times in 1,830 Posts
Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
You have some information that the investigation is complete and conclusions issued by the investigative organizations?
Give me a "G'. "G!" Give me an "O.' "O!"


I think you can fill in the blanks.

or just look at the link on the page for a start.

Or not.
Maelochs is offline  
Old 03-20-18, 12:15 PM
  #2085  
Been Around Awhile
 
I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 29,956

Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked 1,526 Times in 1,039 Posts
The DOT can save money by not bothering to send an investigation team to AZ. All the facts can be obtained by reading the A&S's Board of AV Experts' findings, culled from the very latest factoids and speculation available on the Internet.

Blame the pedestrian or cyclist victim, case closed as long as the vehicle is a product of the AV promoters; otherwise blame the reckless, distracted, and/or malicious human driver of a non AV no matter what the victim did.
I-Like-To-Bike is offline  
Old 03-20-18, 12:23 PM
  #2086  
Been Around Awhile
 
I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 29,956

Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked 1,526 Times in 1,039 Posts
Originally Posted by jefnvk
Neither Uber nor the autonomous technology is likely at fault according to police. The lady stepped out suddenly enough even the human driver didn't catch it until she was already hit: https://www.sfchronicle.com/business...e-12765481.php
Do you know of any reason why the Tempe police chief would be giving this "exclusive" to a San Francisco newspaper prior to the completion of any investigation? Doesn't that seem a little odd?
I-Like-To-Bike is offline  
Old 03-20-18, 12:31 PM
  #2087  
pan y agua
 
merlinextraligh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Jacksonville
Posts: 31,290

Bikes: Willier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Calfee Dragonfly tandem, Calfee Adventure tandem; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Motebecanne Phantom Cross; Schwinn Paramount Track bike

Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1437 Post(s)
Liked 704 Times in 359 Posts
Originally Posted by Leisesturm
Maybe not forever, but given the skittishness of investors its safe to say we won't see any further active testing in our lifetimes.
Fantasy Land. As others have pointed out, with hundreds of billions of dollars in play, autonomous car development is not going to just stop.

And somebody dying was not to be unexpected. The question isn't whether you can have a completely safe autonomis car, its whether you can make one that safer than human operators.

There may a brief pause while this incident is digested but autonomous cars are not going away because of one incident.
__________________
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
merlinextraligh is offline  
Old 03-20-18, 12:35 PM
  #2088  
What happened?
 
Rollfast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Around here somewhere
Posts: 7,927

Bikes: 3 Rollfasts, 3 Schwinns, a Shelby and a Higgins Flightliner in a pear tree!

Mentioned: 57 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1835 Post(s)
Liked 292 Times in 255 Posts
According to Yahoo, the person who was behind the wheel was also a convicted felon... https://www.yahoo.com/finance/m/e6e1...ving-uber.html

Also under a new name. Doesn't sound very good.
__________________
I don't know nothing, and I memorized it in school and got this here paper I'm proud of to show it.

Last edited by Rollfast; 03-20-18 at 12:40 PM.
Rollfast is offline  
Old 03-20-18, 12:39 PM
  #2089  
What happened?
 
Rollfast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Around here somewhere
Posts: 7,927

Bikes: 3 Rollfasts, 3 Schwinns, a Shelby and a Higgins Flightliner in a pear tree!

Mentioned: 57 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1835 Post(s)
Liked 292 Times in 255 Posts
https://www.yahoo.com/finance/m/e6e1...ving-uber.html

It was possibly the operator's fault. Convicted felon and a new name.
__________________
I don't know nothing, and I memorized it in school and got this here paper I'm proud of to show it.
Rollfast is offline  
Old 03-20-18, 12:42 PM
  #2090  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Far beyond the pale horizon.
Posts: 14,253
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4242 Post(s)
Liked 1,342 Times in 931 Posts
Originally Posted by noisebeam
Originally Posted by Hoopdriver
Odd that they constructed that "X" of a pavement in the median looking quite like a walkway and then post signs prohibiting walking on them.
Not odd at all. In the desert all kinds of landscaping decorations are used in place of grass. Pavers included.
It's odd.

It's constructed like a walkway (not "landscaping decorations").

The signs saying "use crosswalk" underline that it looks like a place to walk.

Originally Posted by noisebeam
Medians are on many streets here and are often landscaped with pavers.
There isn't much sense to make a flawless imitation of a pedestrian area there and to waste tax money on it too.

There are some medians in the area that use pavers but either it's because it allows cars to cross or (I suppose) to mitigate erosion.

There is nothing like this anywhere in the vicinity.

If there's a purpose, there's no reason it had to be made to look just like a walkway (and to have to put up signs).

Last edited by njkayaker; 03-20-18 at 01:02 PM.
njkayaker is offline  
Old 03-20-18, 12:43 PM
  #2091  
Senior Member
 
jefnvk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Metro Detroit/AA
Posts: 8,207

Bikes: 2016 Novara Mazama

Mentioned: 63 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3640 Post(s)
Liked 81 Times in 51 Posts
Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
Do you know of any reason why the Tempe police chief would be giving this "exclusive" to a San Francisco newspaper prior to the completion of any investigation? Doesn't that seem a little odd?
Please, "exclusive" is a tag put on anything to get some attention by the news.

That is the only criticism you can come up with, though?
jefnvk is offline  
Old 03-20-18, 12:47 PM
  #2092  
Senior Member
 
KD5NRH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Stephenville TX
Posts: 3,697

Bikes: 2010 Trek 7100

Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 697 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Originally Posted by genec
Of course this whole situation will be examined down to the nth degree.
Like just what kind of "shadow" all the fancy sensor technologies can't see into? Heck, the whole point of the first several radar/lidar/sonar/magic systems was to see through fog and shadows.

Did she parachute into the road from a stealth bomber?
KD5NRH is offline  
Old 03-20-18, 12:48 PM
  #2093  
Senior Member
 
jefnvk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Metro Detroit/AA
Posts: 8,207

Bikes: 2016 Novara Mazama

Mentioned: 63 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3640 Post(s)
Liked 81 Times in 51 Posts
Originally Posted by Rollfast
It was possibly the operator's fault. Convicted felon and a new name.
Simply because they were a felon working under an assumed name, it is possibly their fault? Surely that isn't your entire logical deduction? That is about as intelligent as saying it is probably the woman's fault because she was homeless.
jefnvk is offline  
Old 03-20-18, 12:49 PM
  #2094  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 284
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 84 Post(s)
Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Originally Posted by Maelochs
For all you know they do.

This was not a residential neighborhood, it was a multi-lane city street with a 45-mph speed limit and no sidewalk on that side.

Apparently even if the car (or any car, with any kind of driver) had gone into panic-braking mode, there was no way to avoid the collision.

No point in speculating about situations which don't obtain. And as you yourself admit, in some situations there is simply no way to avoid the collision .... if one party is completely reckless and irresponsible, the other cannot make up for that.

But no point in getting all worked up about stuff which is entirely imaginary. Thee is plenty of real stuff happening.

I'm not getting worked up and not coming up with stuff that's imaginary. These are real life parameters these cars will be dealing with on a regular basis. As you noted, their programmers and engineers are likely thinking these through and taking them into account. They'd better be or the legal world will be all over their company after they roll out their product.


AV will more then likely make driving safer for everyone. The key will be determining the acceptable levels of death like we do now with regular cars. The starting point will probably be somewhere <~40,000. If AVs cut automotive deaths by 98% it will be a huge improvement. But the companies would still have to deal with potentially hundreds of headlines a year where they could be blamed, or worse, blameless but blamed in the court of public opinion. As of now, that potential blame is spread out over millions of individual purchasers, but focused down it could easily destroy a company that lives on reputation and it's stock price.


Sure I could stick to just this case and just this specific scenario, but why? It's a discussion board for discussing things. In this specific case it likely wasn't the car's fault. It could be next time or the company could be blamed for it anyway if they accidentally kill some cute little kids in suburbia.


The technological advances will be as interesting to watch as the political and social forces that come with shifts in technology.

Last edited by InOmaha; 03-20-18 at 12:58 PM.
InOmaha is offline  
Old 03-20-18, 12:52 PM
  #2095  
Been Around Awhile
 
I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 29,956

Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked 1,526 Times in 1,039 Posts
Originally Posted by jefnvk
Please, "exclusive" is a tag put on anything to get some attention by the news.

That is the only criticism you can come up with, though?
Really, I don't see the Tempe police chief's comments/conclusions picked up by any other news organization. I also question the motives of the Tempe police chief providing his opinions on the cause of a local fatality and Uber's lack of fault/blame only to a SF reporter, with undue haste and prior even to the beginning of any credible investigation by any organization.
I-Like-To-Bike is offline  
Old 03-20-18, 12:55 PM
  #2096  
Widely Despised
 
Revoltingest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Revoltistan (in SE MI)
Posts: 174

Bikes: Dahon Helios, Dahon P8, Bike Friday tandem, Ingo, Trek, Columbia, Helix

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 85 Post(s)
Liked 8 Times in 2 Posts
Recent updates....
Self-driving Uber That Killed Woman May Not Have Been Responsible for Fatal Crash, Police Say
Uber's self-driving car death: What you need to know - Mar. 20, 2018
Revoltingest is offline  
Old 03-20-18, 12:57 PM
  #2097  
Widely Despised
 
Revoltingest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Revoltistan (in SE MI)
Posts: 174

Bikes: Dahon Helios, Dahon P8, Bike Friday tandem, Ingo, Trek, Columbia, Helix

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 85 Post(s)
Liked 8 Times in 2 Posts
There's something to be said for a car which is never operated by a drunk or a driver
looking to injure/kill a cyclist. A friend & I have had this happen (separate occasions).
Revoltingest is offline  
Old 03-20-18, 12:59 PM
  #2098  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Far beyond the pale horizon.
Posts: 14,253
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4242 Post(s)
Liked 1,342 Times in 931 Posts
Originally Posted by Hoopdriver
Odd that they constructed that "X" of a pavement in the median looking quite like a walkway and then post signs prohibiting walking on them.
The signs don't prohibit walking on them. They are saying to use the crosswalk. But there isn't anyway else to get to them other than crossing the street.

They certainly look like a walkway when there's no reason they have to look like a walkway.

The "decoration" explanation makes no sense.

I suppose they added the signs after the fact after realizing that they created a walkway.
njkayaker is offline  
Old 03-20-18, 12:59 PM
  #2099  
Senior Member
 
jefnvk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Metro Detroit/AA
Posts: 8,207

Bikes: 2016 Novara Mazama

Mentioned: 63 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3640 Post(s)
Liked 81 Times in 51 Posts
Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
Really, I don't see the Tempe police chief's comments/conclusions picked up by any other news organization. I also question the motives of the Tempe police chief providing his opinions on the cause of a local fatality and Uber's lack of fault/blame only to a SF reporter, with undue haste and prior even to the beginning of any credible investigation by any organization.
You mean, other than the chief's police department who viewed the video to draw those conclusions?

I'm glad you're pretty much calling the Chief and the SF Chronicle liars, though. That really bolsters your case.
jefnvk is offline  
Old 03-20-18, 01:05 PM
  #2100  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Far beyond the pale horizon.
Posts: 14,253
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4242 Post(s)
Liked 1,342 Times in 931 Posts
Originally Posted by jefnvk
You mean, other than the chief's police department who viewed the video to draw those conclusions?

I'm glad you're pretty much calling the Chief and the SF Chronicle liars, though. That really bolsters your case.
I see the lizard people got to you too.
njkayaker is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.