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Would a self driving car world make it safe for cyclists?

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Would a self driving car world make it safe for cyclists?

Old 03-20-18, 10:18 PM
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Based on preliminary information, the car was going approximately 40 mph in a 35 mph zone, according to Tempe Police Detective Lily Duran.
So the car was speeding, but it was all the pedestrians fault?
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Old 03-20-18, 10:23 PM
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Originally Posted by CB HI
Interesting that you say you have done multiple aircraft mishaps, but you clearly fail to understand why the military calls them mishaps rather than accidents.
Oh? Please explain what I don't know about what I did for a living.

The military is less interested in fault than cause, and cause was often found without fault.
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Old 03-20-18, 10:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Siu Blue Wind
Kontact and ILTB stop.
Shucks, I was enjoying watching them go at it.
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Old 03-20-18, 10:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Kontact
Oh? Please explain what I don't know about what I did for a living.

The military is less interested in fault than cause, and cause was often found without fault.
Why does the military call them mishaps rather than accidents?

Why do Professional Safety Managers call them mishaps rather than accidents?

Please explain why if you believe you understand.
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Old 03-20-18, 11:02 PM
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Originally Posted by CB HI
Why does the military call them mishaps rather than accidents?

Why do Professional Safety Managers call them mishaps rather than accidents?

Please explain why if you believe you understand.
Because the word mishap doesn't assign blame or absolve it. It is a neutral word used to keep everyone open to finding cause. Cause, not fault, because the military values learning from real world lessons rather than blaming specific people.

After a mishap investigation, "causal factors" are cited in the mishap report, and those factors are used to create training, assess risk factors, create new procedures and change maintenance.

If there is a possibility of wrongdoing, that is evaluated in a completely different investigation that is kept separate from the mishap investigation. I served on one of those as well.



I used the word "accident" because that is the normal term for a car "mishap" in the US. Are you from here?
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Old 03-21-18, 04:52 AM
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Originally Posted by CB HI
So the car was speeding, but it was all the pedestrians fault?
According to both the speed limit signs as seen on Google Streetview and a local resident who frequently rides there the actual speed limit is 45 mph rather than the 35 mph cited in the article. So the car was not speeding.
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Old 03-21-18, 05:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Kontact
Because the word mishap doesn't assign blame or absolve it. It is a neutral word used to keep everyone open to finding cause. Cause, not fault, because the military values learning from real world lessons rather than blaming specific people.

After a mishap investigation, "causal factors" are cited in the mishap report, and those factors are used to create training, assess risk factors, create new procedures and change maintenance.

If there is a possibility of wrongdoing, that is evaluated in a completely different investigation that is kept separate from the mishap investigation. I served on one of those as well.



I used the word "accident" because that is the normal term for a car "mishap" in the US. Are you from here?
"Accident" is the common term as it was so "assigned" in use decades ago by automobile promoters to absolve drivers of guilt, blame and responsibilities...

Professionals recognize this situation, and have been trying to steer the term to the more accurate "collision," or "crash."
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.pla...ccidents%3famp
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Old 03-21-18, 05:59 AM
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Right now no one knows what happened except to some degree the driver and the people who have seen the video---which doesn't include any of us.

We can assume that a photo is accurate, we can assume that the lizard people did it, we can assume that the AV Cabal is controlling the nation (though it would be hard to explain why we don't already have AVs universally in that case) ....

Another option would be to ... I don't know, ... wait until we have more evidence? I mean, that would be the intelligent, almost scientific approach ... you know, gather experimental data before deciding whether a given theory is borne out By That Data.

Right now it seems every thread here has become a platform for different posters to repetitively voice their opinions regardless of the actual topic of the thread, and certainly without any logical support ... the only other kind of post here, predominantly, is the "You are wrong because you disagree and therefore are part of the " (Lizard people, Illuminati, shadow government, Deep State, AV cabal ... pick one.)

Really, the thread topics are meaningless. We could just post a blank thread and let everybody fight.
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Old 03-21-18, 07:18 AM
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Originally Posted by KD5NRH
They keep saying she "came from nowhere out of the shadows," so unless the driver was wearing night vision goggles, (with the interdimensional portal filter allowing them to see into the magical nowhere the police chief believes cyclists and pedestrians frequently emerge from) there was no way to see her with human eyesight. That doesn't excuse the AV when one of its big selling points is supposed to be all the non-visible-light-based sensors detecting things we can't see.
Right.

If any company wants to save face and gain public trust there needs to be full transparancy.

The video, logs, open source access to the code.

That won't ever happen though, too much financial incentive to control the market via classic vendor lock-in strategy.
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Old 03-21-18, 07:29 AM
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Originally Posted by robertorolfo
Um, what evidence? As far as I know, none of us have seen the video. The claim that she suddenly moved out in front of the vehicle, before any human or machine could possibly react, sure is convenient though, right?
I haven't seen video for most fatal incidents. Like most non-conspiracy folks, I am content with what investigators say, I don;t somehow think I am more enlightened than them. Generally, the police aren't in the habit of releasing any sort of meaningful video of fatal incidents, for good reason. Of course, even if it were released, it would simply be branded as tampered with by Uber by a vocal group here.

Originally Posted by Rollfast
Spokes. I'll bet spokes drive AI cars crazy.
Actually you know what can light up a radar system like crazy? The metal poles holding up guard rails alongside the highway. Luckily, radar systems are capable of tracking thousands of targets.

Originally Posted by SHBR
If any company wants to save face and gain public trust there needs to be full transparancy.

The video, logs, open source access to the code.
Because the public has access to any of that for all the advance technology already in vehicles of any sort, a setup that few have issue with? Open source inspection sounds great in theory, in reality it is a joke. Even if you had access to code, would the average person even know what they were looking at? Are people really looking for transparency? Or, once again, are people looking for someone they agree with, who thinks like them, to induce any doubt whatsoever, no matter how small or inconsequential or even correct, that they can latch onto and use to confirm their beliefs?
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Old 03-21-18, 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted by jefnvk
Because the public has access to any of that for all the advance technology already in vehicles of any sort, a setup that few have issue with? Open source inspection sounds great in theory, in reality it is a joke. Even if you had access to code, would the average person even know what they were looking at? Are people really looking for transparency? Or, once again, are people looking for someone they agree with, who thinks like them, to induce any doubt whatsoever, no matter how small or inconsequential or even correct, that they can latch onto and use to confirm their beliefs?
In the open source world, developers can examine, and possibly improve and/or fork the code to be more useful to the general public.

As an end user, it can be extremely beneficial to have direct access to the developers, to make suggestions etc.

The browser you are using to access this site most likely relies on the open source community for updates and improvements.

It is possible to have order out of chaos, its how humanity has evolved for thousands of years.
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Old 03-21-18, 08:10 AM
  #2212  
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Originally Posted by genec
"Accident" is the common term as it was so "assigned" in use decades ago by automobile promoters to absolve drivers of guilt, blame and responsibilities...

Professionals recognize this situation, and have been trying to steer the term to the more accurate "collision," or "crash."
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.pla...ccidents%3famp
I am not a NHTSA professional, so I used the non-professional terminology.
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Old 03-21-18, 08:16 AM
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open-code doesn't necessarily improve anything. open-code means anyone can see it ... and in some cases, change it.

But that assumes that there are all sorts of computer geniuses out there working at McDonald's or something, but who are Way smarter than the best in the world, which is certainly who the major AV companies hired.

Do you think Waymo hired Uncle Ned's cousin Jack, because he plays video games and won't get a job? Those companies spending hundreds of millions on AV are hiring the best.

open code is great for a website ... but how many people do you think actually improve the site?

What it basically means is anyone can copy the code and set up their own browser ... but to be better than this one, the person writing the code would need to be better than the pros who created the code in the first place ... in which case, the person is probably already programming an a serious project.

In any case ... there is no reason to think that the code is a big problem ... or that fine-tuning the code is beyond the scope of the people who wrote it in the first place.

Last I heard, no airline offers an open-code version of its autopilot program ... so I assume you don;t fly because some video-game player in his mom's basement doesn't get to "improve" the code?

Cliff Notes: Any developers smart enough to understand the code are either already on the project or are working on other, equally intricate projects. The 33-year-old guy in his mom's basement eating skittles and chips isn't going to save any world except the one in the video game he plays.

EDIT: if a poster who has always come across and level-headed and grounded in reality, and who Works on AV braking systems, and is the closest thing to an "expert" (as opposed to "self-proclaimed expert") the site has to offer, has a particular view on a topic ... i'd give a little more credence to his input than to anyone who has an obvious agenda or is just throwing around convenient catch-phrases.

I know the trend the last several years has been "Don't trust anyone smarter than you" but that is a stupid idea held only by stupid people. When people who write code or work on AV tech weigh in, i might pay attention.

When someone says, "Anyone could write better code than the leading industry experts hired by the companies investing billions," I don't find that to be a persuasive argument.

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Old 03-21-18, 08:32 AM
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Open source is more than just code.

Like I said before, videos, logs, all of the people working on this project.

If this technology is as great as some claim it to be, there should be nothing to hide.
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Old 03-21-18, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by mtb_addict
That is a damning piece of evidence against Uber.
I'm sure the data in the car will help answer that question, but I don't know how they established where the victim came from and if she was walking or riding at the time. The test driver didn't see her prior to the collision, so it is possible that the narrative so far has been inaccurate.


And if she was walking from the left to the right, then both the test driver and the robot BOTH failed to see her in the middle of their lane.
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Old 03-21-18, 08:44 AM
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Originally Posted by SHBR
In the open source world, developers can examine, and possibly improve and/or fork the code to be more useful to the general public.

As an end user, it can be extremely beneficial to have direct access to the developers, to make suggestions etc.

The browser you are using to access this site most likely relies on the open source community for updates and improvements.

It is possible to have order out of chaos, its how humanity has evolved for thousands of years.
Open source works great for making software that is freely distributed on the internet, which is not safety critical, which doesn't follow piles of federally mandated requirements and doesn't work as part of a hardware control system in ways not always apparent to an end user.

Open source doesn't guarantee any better scrutiny. People are looking for the bombshell revelation, not the mundane crap. There are a myriad of "autonomous" systems on cars you can buy today. No one is asking to scrutinize them, they all want to get into future vehicle decision logic and see what they can find there.

Making open source and allowing people to play with safety control systems on vehicles out in the public is a whole different ball game than writing an email client. As [MENTION=423651]Maelochs[/MENTION] pointed out, do you know where people are that can look at our code and make suggestions to improve it are actually at? Either working for us or a competitor.

Taking this a step further, would you really want a system where anyone could easily tinker with the coding on their safety systems in a vehicle, and then sell it to an unwitting person? Is it a good idea to allow people to test their tweaks on public roads? We go through a laundry list of checks and signoffs before any code is allowed near a public road, and on test tracks "incidents" with early software are not uncommon. You talk about AI being a danger to the public, that programmer messing with his brake system without a clue as to what a brake fluid pressure curve is and how it affects stopping is far more so.

The auto industry has a big enough problem right now with traceability and version controlling and notifying owners when their own stuff has recalls need to be made, is it really good idea to have who knows what loaded onto random cars? You know how many nice prototype cars we sent to the junkyard every year, that I'd gladly buy and drive daily if given the chance, largely in part because the OEMs don't want cars with unknown versions of software on all the ECUs running around on the roads causing potential liability issues?
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Old 03-21-18, 08:48 AM
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Time to put all the cards on the table, and explain truthfully what exactly happened here.

I'm guessing that won't happen, and everything will go back to business as usual quite soon.

Another dead human, nobody cares.
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Old 03-21-18, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
False equivalence.

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Old 03-21-18, 08:54 AM
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People have been tinkering with their possessions since the stone age.

People actually manufacture guns, drugs and all sorts of dangerous items in their own homes, and sometimes they get used in public.

This tends to become problematic when it happens in private though, the same logic applies with AV technology.

There is too much blind faith in society,
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Old 03-21-18, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by SHBR
Time to put all the cards on the table, and explain truthfully what exactly happened here.

I'm guessing that won't happen, and everything will go back to business as usual quite soon.

Another dead human, nobody cares.
The thing is, coming up with a real explanation and showing a fix is going to be much better for business than covering up a problem and having it happen all the time with production vehicles. At this point Uber's liability isn't as large as it would be if it was found out later that they tried to cover something up. Today the worst they would be guilty of is legally operating their prototype and that prototype having a previously undiscovered flaw, and having an inattentive driver. The fact that it is a prototype and the car has a human driver limits their specific liability immensely.
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Old 03-21-18, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by njkayaker
False equivalence.

Time will tell how quickly and/or willingly Uber will unlock/provide all the data gathered by their AV car(s) to the Federal and state investigators. Apple stonewalled the FBI in the cited case that involved the investigation of numerous murders by a pair of terrorists. This case involves the death of "only" one homeless woman.
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Old 03-21-18, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by SHBR
In the open source world, developers can examine, and possibly improve and/or fork the code to be more useful to the general public.
The open source world is weird.

Programming is hard and expensive.

Open source means that there is little point in expending that effort.
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Old 03-21-18, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
Time will tell how quickly and/or willingly Uber will unlock/provide all the data gathered by their AV car(s) to the Federal and state investigators.
That didn't keeping you from speculating ahead of any real information (after you regularly whinge about other people doing it).



Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
Apple stonewalled the FBI in the cited case that involved the investigation of numerous murders by a pair of terrorists. This case involves the death of "only" one homeless woman.
It's false equivalence.

You are not a fan of privacy, it appears.

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Old 03-21-18, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Kontact
The thing is, coming up with a real explanation and showing a fix is going to be much better for business than covering up a problem and having it happen all the time with production vehicles. At this point Uber's liability isn't as large as it would be if it was found out later that they tried to cover something up. Today the worst they would be guilty of is legally operating their prototype and that prototype having a previously undiscovered flaw, and having an inattentive driver. The fact that it is a prototype and the car has a human driver limits their specific liability immensely.
Its a real quagmire, and I'm not sure how this could end well.

However, given the short attention span of the general public, it will be forgotten quite soon.

If/when/how often this occurs will be the limiting factor, there seems to be a general decline in public safety standards.

Watch out for falling bridges too.
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Old 03-21-18, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
Assuming that this photo from the NYT accurately represents the path/locations of AV and the victim at the time of the accident, can someone explain how the victim walking a bicycle came out of nowhere to suddenly and without warning appear in front of a vehicle traveling at about 38MPH on the right side of this wide road, damaging the car on its right front side? https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...an-killed.html
The photo you are displaying is missing text associated with the right arrow.

"Elaine Herzberg was struck while walking her bike across the street somewhere in this area."

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...an-killed.html

It's not clear whether the right pointing arrow is indicating the direction she was moving (it certainly suggests the direction).

There is nothing that I've seen that clearly indicates what direction she was moving.

Last edited by njkayaker; 03-21-18 at 09:22 AM.
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