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Would a self driving car world make it safe for cyclists?

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Would a self driving car world make it safe for cyclists?

Old 06-17-17, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
I am not the one exaggerating the super-duper safety future of American roads extrapolated from the wishful thinking/sales pitch/hucksterism of the promoters of autonomous driverless vehicles.
I'm glad to see some of us around here are still thinking for themselves. IT and AI has become a religion with these people, they believe every word uttered by the priests of HiTech and question nothing. Every 5 or so years a new invention is touted and when it doesn't come to pass simply pretend it never was and transfer their zeal to the next promised digital messiah.
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Old 06-17-17, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by coominya
I'm glad to see some of us around here are still thinking for themselves. IT and AI has become a religion with these people, they believe every word uttered by the priests of HiTech and question nothing.
Those silly people that believe in math and science.
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Old 06-17-17, 07:39 PM
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Originally Posted by coominya
What a silly statement? What will you suggest next, that husbands and wives be replaced by robot spouses so people are not in danger of domestic violence? Shall we replace pushbikes with electric bikes because people are injuring their knees and hips and having heart attacks by riding too strenuously?
I would "suggest" more stricter driving tests/exams... only people who can "actually" drive should have a drivers licence...

Originally Posted by coominya
I'm glad to see some of us around here are still thinking for themselves. IT and AI has become a religion with these people, they believe every word uttered by the priests of HiTech and question nothing. Every 5 or so years a new invention is touted and when it doesn't come to pass simply pretend it never was and transfer their zeal to the next promised digital messiah.
Think back about five/ten years... Would you have believed the phone becoming a mobile device that captivates so many...? Even while walking, and driving, or siting in a restaurant with an-other person, (out on a date) ? and neither says anything to the other for basically 10-20 minutes, or even the whole time I watched them, (they were always on the phone interacting with others and ignoring the person they were with)... ? I have watched others in situations like that and seen that over and over... WOW...
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Old 06-17-17, 09:13 PM
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Originally Posted by 350htrr
I would "suggest" more stricter driving tests/exams... only people who can "actually" drive should have a drivers licence...
I know... I suspect those demanding self drive cars are the ones having all the accidents

Think back about five/ten years... Would you have believed the phone becoming a mobile device that captivates so many...
Funny that isn't it. Look at the TV, that was an amazing technological invention, it took families who used to sit together around a table discussing their day and interracting together and plonked them in front of the 6 Oclock news where they could eat while watching murder and tragedy and fraud and political turmoil.

Technology is vastly overatted in its benifits and as you point out the smart phone is a total disaster for social development. I personally know of 3 friendships and one family that has been shattered apart because of the anti-social medium of facebook. We all know examples...



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Old 06-18-17, 11:40 PM
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I think the weather was either way too wet or hotter than molten steel and people got stuck in their homes typing. Makes me dizzy.
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Old 06-18-17, 11:59 PM
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Originally Posted by coominya
Technology is vastly overatted in its benifits and as you point out the smart phone is a total disaster for social development. I personally know of 3 friendships and one family that has been shattered apart because of the anti-social medium of facebook. We all know examples...
In the context of this thread I think you're mostly full of nonsense coominya, but I agree with this point you make here. There's lots of negative aspects about modern technology. It's moving a little faster than is healthy, in my opinion. But self-driving cars is really one of the more benign and beneficial technologies that's about to take over the world (unless you drive a car for a living, then it's not so good).
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Old 06-19-17, 01:43 AM
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As with any great technology - depends on how you use it

If self driving technology will reduce people's awareness, than it may not do good ...
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Old 06-19-17, 06:33 AM
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Originally Posted by coominya
What a silly statement? What will you suggest next, that husbands and wives be replaced by robot spouses so people are not in danger of domestic violence? Shall we replace pushbikes with electric bikes because people are injuring their knees and hips and having heart attacks by riding too strenuously?
Let's put it another way. Why do you prefer the current behaviour that results in 90 deaths each day over their solutions? You know, telling drivers to drive better aren't working. Stricter law enforcement only creates political backlash. So the statement reflects the observation, that bad driving is a socially acceptable norm.
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Old 06-19-17, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by 350htrr
I would "suggest" more stricter driving tests/exams... only people who can "actually" drive should have a drivers licence...
Not everyone involved in an accident could not actually drive. Actually, anyone... everyone, involved in an accident has proven that they, in fact, were very much capable of piloting a motor vehicle to the site of the impact. The car that gets crushed by a freight train may have executed that kind of maneuver several times before, demonstrating a level of vehicle handling and panache somewhat in excess of the average license holder. Bad judgement, momentary bad judgement, cannot be predicted. Stricter driving tests only empower smug above it all types to make sweeping generalizations about other drivers none of whom they believe possess 'the right stuff' to be driving automobiles. That would be incorrect.
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Old 06-19-17, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Dannyloeb
If self driving technology will reduce people's awareness, than it may not do good ...
I can quote my credit card number and associated dates and security information on command. Can you? My wife, who is blind can recall all our various credit and banking data plus all the phone numbers of her friends and family! As a young adult I kept most of the phone numbers of my friends and family in memory. I did not keep a paper phone number list. Smartphones are definitely having a negative impact on the human ability to store and recall arcania. And? What? If the use of a Smartphone kills the ability to memorize information its not like people can no longer call friends, it is just that they need their phone to do it. You would need the phone anyway to make the call. The only downside to self-driving cars that I can see is if there is no attempt made to force them to adopt all electric propulsion technology. An increased vehicle fleet of self-driving vehicles that can be on the road emitting CO2 even while their owners are otherwise occupied elsewhere would be a very bad development.
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Old 06-19-17, 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Leisesturm
I suspect it will be environmental things like black ice or oil slicks from an earlier accident or the structural failure of a bridge or overpass while the car is on it. Regular cars can, even now be fitted with brake lights that strobe for a couple of seconds before settling down to a steady red upon brake application. That's all the 'back off' anyone needs. I do it myself to tailgaters, just tap the brake a couple of times. They get the message. If they don't then you know exactly what you're dealing with. I don't think those kinds of drivers are a significant source of accidents.
Tailgaters are much more common than collapsing bridges or even oil slicks or black ice. Almost all of the crashes in which the Google/Waymo cars have been involved when in self-driving mode have been rear-enders, all classified as not the self-driving car's fault. I'm certain there have been zero crashes involving collapsing infrastructure, black ice or oil slicks. Tailgaters are practically the sole source of crashes with these cars.
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Old 06-19-17, 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted by coominya
No, genec, you're grasping at straws now. The computer hasn't a clue what's behind it, it could be a trash can dropped from a passing truck, but a human will know it's a cyclist and have the concept in their conscious mind long after they have looked away from the mirror. Computers can be made to do simple tasks like the one I am doing now now on my laptop because they have been programmed to. But take a computer out of it's depth even a little and it locks up or jinxes or makes any number of errors.

navigating the constantly fluid road environment is simply beyond them and they will always crash into barriers, run under trucks, and eventually be killing people as they prioritize inanimate objects above a living organism in their senseless pursuit of the lesser of two collision options.

AI is a SiFi fantasy, always has been, will probably remain so, and nothing short of AI would be safe on the roads.
Whoa, I had to check the date to make sure this wasn't posted five years ago.

Dude, where have you been? These cars are equipped with technology that recognizes and distinguishes practically anything. Will they have glitches initially? Certainly, but the technology is there. A year ago I was thinking we were 10 years away. Now it's less than five, maybe less than two.

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Old 06-19-17, 06:43 PM
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Originally Posted by tyrion
There's lots of negative aspects about modern technology. It's moving a little faster than is healthy, in my opinion.
OTOH, there is no time in recorded history when some did not hold that opinion.
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Old 06-19-17, 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted by DreamRider85
Remember about a year ago, I was obsessed about the world becoming safer for cyclists. I literally wish we had our own cycling highways. But everyday I hear more and more about safer self driving car technology. Now I don't really know how close we are till this technology is improved or perfected. I really don't know.

But if this technology did take off in say 10 years and it was proven to be 100 x safer than human driving, would that be good news for cyclists? Could we just cycle every road without any worries? Imagine what a heaven that would be for us. Just saying.
We are a very long time from autonomous cars. Neither google maps nor imaps can even find my house. When you put my address into google it takes you to a Chilli's about 15 miles away. How are we ever to expect that a car can drive us with enough precision to be safe on a crowded highway? I enjoy drining, I will never give driving up to a machine. I really don't see the advantage.
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Old 06-19-17, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by MikeOK
We are a very long time from autonomous cars. Neither google maps nor imaps can even find my house.
That doesn't mean the technology doesn't exist. There's a guy sitting in Tampa who can direct a drone to deliver a smart bomb through your bedroom window if the DoD wishes that to happen. That there are glitches in free maps on the internet says little about the true capacities of modern technology.

The reality is we are not a very long time from autonomous cars. We have autonomous cars now. It may be some time before they are universal, but we'll see them in fairly widespread commercial usage within a decade. Cost is now a greater hurdle than technology.

But I too enjoy driving and don't plan on giving it up either. Even if I do believe the autonomous vehicles are already safer and will become ever more so.
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Old 06-19-17, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by MikeOK
We are a very long time from autonomous cars. Neither google maps nor imaps can even find my house. When you put my address into google it takes you to a Chilli's about 15 miles away. How are we ever to expect that a car can drive us with enough precision to be safe on a crowded highway? I enjoy drining, I will never give driving up to a machine. I really don't see the advantage.
I think you're confusing GPS navigation accuracy with lane/roadway positioning accuracy. It's true that an autonomous car must deal with both, but they're distinct systems.

With respect to navigation, I think initially, and probably for many years, truly autonomous vehicles will be rolled out as ride-hail cars within fixed zones. The number and sizes of zones will grow, but navigation and mapping will be verified to be very accurate for all addresses within a zone before it becomes active. GPS will be used for backup, but for the most part the cars will know where they are simply by keeping track of where they are on their built-in maps, which are constantly refreshed/updated as needed.

As to lane/roadway positioning accuracy, that's the technology being developed and tested and honed as we speak.That's staying within a lane, choosing a lane, choosing safe following distance, avoiding blind spots, etc. Production cars like Teslas are already doing much of that.
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Old 06-19-17, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by jon c.
That doesn't mean the technology doesn't exist. There's a guy sitting in Tampa who can direct a drone to deliver a smart bomb through your bedroom window if the DoD wishes that to happen. That there are glitches in free maps on the internet says little about the true capacities of modern technology.

The reality is we are not a very long time from autonomous cars. We have autonomous cars now. It may be some time before they are universal, but we'll see them in fairly widespread commercial usage within a decade. Cost is now a greater hurdle than technology.

But I too enjoy driving and don't plan on giving it up either. Even if I do believe the autonomous vehicles are already safer and will become ever more so.
I know we have them. The last Tesla test car crashed and totaled itself out. We are at least 30 years away, and even then they will only be used in large metropolitan areas.
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Old 06-19-17, 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Ninety5rpm
Certainly, but the technology is there. A year ago I was thinking we were 10 years away. Now it's less than five, maybe less than two.
May it be granted unto you according to your faith.

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Old 06-19-17, 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by MikeOK
We are at least 30 years away, and even then they will only be used in large metropolitan areas.
Hope we're both still around in a decade to see who is right. Thirty years might be pressing it for me, so I'd better be correct in ten.

And metro areas won't be the only early adopters. Long haul trucks on the highway will adopt this technology early on.
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Old 06-19-17, 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by MikeOK
he last Tesla test car crashed and totaled itself out.
Do you mean the one in Florida over a year ago that was unable to "see" a while truck against the sun? A serious flaw that was fixed within a few weeks?

That's all you've got? That wasn't a test car. That was one of their "auto pilot" cars (glorified cruise control) which is still far from fully autonomous and requires the human driver to remain alert and in control.
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Old 06-19-17, 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by jon c.
Hope we're both still around in a decade to see who is right. Thirty years might be pressing it for me, so I'd better be correct in ten.

And metro areas won't be the only early adopters. Long haul trucks on the highway will adopt this technology early on.
Thirty years will be pushing it for me too. As hard headed as I am at 54 I'm sure I will be the last to give in. I've read of the 18 wheeler argument before. Will you ever feel comfortable knowing your kids or grandkids are out on the hiway with an 18 wheeler barreling down the road at 75 mph and no driver?
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Old 06-19-17, 07:36 PM
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Today on oneway one two lane road with bike lane a self driving car (Waymo) for some reason got behind me straddling the bike lane. It followed for 100m, then moved back into primary travel lane and followed behind me for another 100m when a pass would have been safe and easy. Then it passed and stopped ahead of me waiting to turn right. I passed it on its left, then it turned. No idea if driver was in active control or not.
On this same road I encounter auto auto mobiles nearly every day with nothing unusual, other than they sometimes hesitate to pass me.
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Old 06-19-17, 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by MikeOK
I know we have them. The last Tesla test car crashed and totaled itself out. We are at least 30 years away, and even then they will only be used in large metropolitan areas.
And probably by a minority, pizza delivery, cabs, subsets like the greenies that now drive electric cars. Forget basic issues like safety and legal cover, the best invention in the world will be a flop if it doesn't have public acceptance.

Here are just a few techno flops the current crop of believers conveniently forget about.

Don't Believe the Hype: The 21 Biggest Technology Flops | Computerworld

Virtual reality
The idea sounded fantastic -- put on special goggles, gloves and perhaps other connected clothing and immerse yourself fully in a 3-D game, training session or other activity. That idea made early VR proponents heroes to many technologists. One of those folk heroes was ***** Lanier, who in the mid '80s started a company called VPL Research to create virtual reality products.

Maybe VR failed in the mass market because of consumer concerns that the equipment would cost too much or make them look silly. Or maybe virtual reality worlds were less real and compelling than our own imaginations. In any case, VR never took off commercially, even though some useful niche applications, such providing surgeons with a way to practice tricky medical procedures, still exist.

The paperless office

It's not known exactly when this dream of marketers and technology vendors emerged, although the Christian Science Monitor suggested in a 2005 article that the term "was probably first coined in a 1966 article in the Harvard Business Review in reference to the emergence of digital data storage."

Just as futurists in the 1950s boldly but inaccurately predicted that computers would cut our work days in half, offices without paper have turned out to be a pipe dream. A book published by MIT Press in 2002 called The Myth of the Paperless Office found that e-mail caused a 40% increase in paper use in many organizations.
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Old 06-19-17, 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Ninety5rpm
Do you mean the one in Florida over a year ago that was unable to "see" a while truck against the sun? A serious flaw that was fixed within a few weeks?

That's all you've got? That wasn't a test car. That was one of their "auto pilot" cars (glorified cruise control) which is still far from fully autonomous and requires the human driver to remain alert and in control.
No this happened in California. And they still haven't fixed it.
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Old 06-19-17, 07:40 PM
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Originally Posted by noisebeam
Today ... a self driving car (Waymo) for some reason got behind me straddling the bike lane. It followed for 100m, then moved back into primary travel lane and followed behind me for another 100m when a pass would have been safe and easy.
Should have been breath tested, sounds like some of the engine coolant may have leaked into the wiring.
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