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Would a self driving car world make it safe for cyclists?

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Would a self driving car world make it safe for cyclists?

Old 03-21-18, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by KD5NRH
Magic.
Or ambiguous/incomplete information.

Originally Posted by KD5NRH
Especially considering that this middle-aged woman, walking a bicycle, would have had to cross roughly 40' of road (two turn lanes, the left through lane and part of the right through lane) with no view obstructions to even get to the left side of the car. That's about 6-8 seconds at a normal walking pace. To do it in under two seconds would be Olympic level sprinting, and that's still an eternity for a computer to react.
Look at the photo on the website.

What it appears to be saying is much more ambiguous.

There is nothing that I've seen that clearly indicates what direction she was moving.

Last edited by njkayaker; 03-21-18 at 09:19 AM.
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Old 03-21-18, 09:16 AM
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Depends on the individual, not everyone is motivated by financial incentives, especially when they have all their basic needs taken care of.

Last I checked, the labor cost for developers is quite high, lots of burned out employees that are tired of being a soldier.

On the other hand I'm sure that there are developers that would love to be involved in AV technology, yet because of all the non-disclosure agreements that most are forced to agree to, they often feel under-appreciated.

High salary, but no life, or worse, you can't talk about work.

Sounds healthy eh?
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Old 03-21-18, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by njkayaker
Or ambiguous/incomplete information.



Look at the photo on the website.

What it appears to be saying is much more ambiguous.

There is nothing that I've seen that clearly indicates what direction she was moving.
Ambiguous/incomplete information hasn't hindered several posters on A&S from declaring this a virtual case closed/done deal that the victim was to blame since there was no possibility for any human or any AV software/hardware combination that would have prevented the vehicle from hitting her because she came out of nowhere or from the shadows or some other location that prevented anyone or anything from taking any evasive action prior to the collision.
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Old 03-21-18, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by SHBR
Depends on the individual, not everyone is motivated by financial incentives, especially when they have all their basic needs taken care of.
One problem with open source is that it devalues programming as a career.

AV requires much more investment than a cheap computer and lots of free time.

It probably wouldn't happen if it was open source.

Originally Posted by SHBR
On the other hand I'm sure that there are developers that would love to be involved in AV technology, yet because of all the non-disclosure agreements that most are forced to agree to, they often feel under-appreciated.

High salary, but no life, or worse, you can't talk about work.

Sounds healthy eh?
In some cases, developers under NDAs are being paid very good salaries. And the developers are smart enough to understand the point of the NDAs and realize that they would have the high-salary job without them.

It's voluntary too.

It might not be "unhealthy" at all.

Last edited by njkayaker; 03-21-18 at 09:34 AM.
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Old 03-21-18, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
Ambiguous/incomplete information hasn't hindered several posters on A&S from declaring this a virtual case closed/done deal that the victim was to blame since there was no possibility for any human or any AV software/hardware combination that would have prevented the vehicle from hitting her because she came out of nowhere or from the shadows or some other location that prevented anyone or anything from taking any evasive action prior to the collision.
You should quote those posters. I haven't read anything like that.
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Old 03-21-18, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
Ambiguous/incomplete information hasn't hindered several posters on A&S from declaring this a virtual case closed/done deal that the victim was to blame since there was no possibility for any human or any AV software/hardware combination that would have prevented the vehicle from hitting her because she came out of nowhere or from the shadows or some other location that prevented anyone or anything from taking any evasive action prior to the collision.
"Ambiguous/incomplete information hasn't hindered" you!

Yet you complain about other people.

You are being hypocritical.

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Old 03-21-18, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by njkayaker
The photo you are displaying is missing text associated with the right arrow.
The displayed photo is what is the URL for the NYT graphic displays and the URL is provided by the NYT website. The URL for the article with the complete graphic was furnished in my post, as well as the caveat - "Assuming that this photo from the NYT accurately represents the path/locations of AV and the victim at the time of the accident".
The graphic displayed on the article on the website includes text overlayed onto the photo but doesn't materially change anything other than describe the red circle as the approximate location of the victim's body after the crash.
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Old 03-21-18, 09:42 AM
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I'm sure there are developers that sleep well at night knowing their code isn't perfect.

Protected by the very agreement they signed, also means that the general public won't know who was responsible when there is an accident.

Its all too similar to the military, and the public will suffer the consequences.
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Old 03-21-18, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Kontact
I am not a NHTSA professional, so I used the non-professional false terminology.
FIFY

Yeah the term lots of folks use to absolve themselves of responsibility...
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Old 03-21-18, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by genec
FIFY

Yeah the term lots of folks use to absolve themselves of responsibility...
If I had used the word "bike" you would complain that professionals call them bicycles.

I used a normal word. Get over it.
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Old 03-21-18, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by njkayaker
"Ambiguous/incomplete information hasn't hindered" you!

Yet you complain about other people.

You are being hypocritical.

It is not hypocritical to raise questions based on the available ambiguous/incomplete information, nor to be skeptical about statements/claims and conclusions, made before the official investigation has even begun, from posters and the police chief (in a peculiar exclusive delivered to one out of town newspaper) that attempt to exonerate the entire AV operation as being blameless because the victim allegedly came from nowhere and there was nothing that could have been done by any human/AV operator of the vehicle to prevent this tragedy.
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Old 03-21-18, 09:53 AM
  #2237  
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Originally Posted by njkayaker
One problem with open source is that it devalues programming as a career.

AV requires much more investment than a cheap computer and lots of free time.

It probably wouldn't happen if it was open source.



In some cases, developers under NDAs are being paid very good salaries. And the developers are smart enough to understand the point of the NDAs and realize that they would have the high-salary job without them.

It's voluntary too.

It might not be "unhealthy" at all.
Oh, it probably is... long days, working weekends, trying to meet impossible deadlines, eating lunch during intense design review meetings... all the stuff that leads to stress related health issues. One can only "flourish" in such an environment for so long.
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Old 03-21-18, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
It is not hypocritical to raise questions based on the available ambiguous/incomplete information, nor to be skeptical about statements/claims and conclusions, made before the official investigation has even begun, from posters and the police chief (in a peculiar exclusive delivered to one out of town newspaper) that attempt to exonerate the entire AV operation as being blameless because the victim allegedly came from nowhere and there was nothing that could have been done by any human/AV operator of the vehicle to prevent this tragedy.
But that isn't what you did. You should use the quote feature to make a specific point-by-point rebuttal of claims you disagree with so other's can follow your logic.

I am a fan boi of that process.
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Old 03-21-18, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Kontact
You should quote those posters. I haven't read anything like that.
See Would a self driving car world make it safe for cyclists?
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Old 03-21-18, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
It is not hypocritical to raise questions based on the available ambiguous/incomplete information,...


No, what is hypocritical is you doing what you complaining about other people doing.
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Old 03-21-18, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by SHBR
I'm sure there are developers that sleep well at night knowing their code isn't perfect.

Protected by the very agreement they signed, also means that the general public won't know who was responsible when there is an accident.

Its all too similar to the military, and the public will suffer the consequences.
Money to pay for the work will just appear by magic.
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Old 03-21-18, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by genec
Oh, it probably is... long days, working weekends, trying to meet impossible deadlines, eating lunch during intense design review meetings... all the stuff that leads to stress related health issues. One can only "flourish" in such an environment for so long.
It's voluntary.

Some people doing this might be able to retire at 45...

Working on open source for free isn't really a solution for this.
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Old 03-21-18, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
It is not hypocritical to raise questions based on the available ambiguous/incomplete information, nor to be skeptical about statements/claims and conclusions, made before the official investigation has even begun, from posters and the police chief (in a peculiar exclusive delivered to one out of town newspaper) that attempt to exonerate the entire AV operation as being blameless because the victim allegedly came from nowhere and there was nothing that could have been done by any human/AV operator of the vehicle to prevent this tragedy.
Keep in mind the police chief saw the scene, the crash victim and the video... and likely knows a lot more than anyone here about the situation.

Anything beyond that IS speculation.
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Old 03-21-18, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by njkayaker


No, what is hypocritical is you doing what you complaining about other people doing.
Other posters are declaring that the blame/cause is 100% on the victim or making excuses for Uber because the victim came from nowhere or was impossible to avoid prior to any real facts being released to the public. For reference see the following posts (note posts from one frequent poster of such declarations omitted).

Would a self driving car world make it safe for cyclists?
"So... lady steps off of a center median nowhere near an intersection, at 10 o'clock at night, and gets hit by a car. Doesn't matter if it was being driven by a person or a computer, she was gonna get hit. "

Would a self driving car world make it safe for cyclists? "... but whatever happened it had to have happened fast enough that the human driver could not react."

Would a self driving car world make it safe for cyclists?
"Read about what Actually happened.
The lady was hidden in shadow, probably under the overpass, and pushed a bike laden with plastic bags right in front of the car."

Would a self driving car world make it safe for cyclists?
"Apparently even if the car (or any car, with any kind of driver) had gone into panic-braking mode, there was no way to avoid the collision.

No point in speculating about situations which don't obtain. And as you yourself admit, in some situations there is simply no way to avoid the collision .... if one party is completely reckless and irresponsible, the other cannot make up for that."

Would a self driving car world make it safe for cyclists?
"The reality of the matter? You step out in front of a vehicle, there is a physical limit where nothing will stop you from being run over."

Would a self driving car world make it safe for cyclists?
"Really sucks that this lady got hit and died. Really does. But ... it has nothing to do with AV operation, and everything to do with humans' inability to maneuver safely and sensibly through the world."

Would a self driving car world make it safe for cyclists?
"Fault... Ok, chalk that one up to the woman stepping in front of the car. Or, perhaps the city for the "do not use sidewalk"

Ironically one of these posters alternates in his posts between declaring with 100% certainty it was the victim's fault, and declaring that nobody should be speculating about the cause or fault before the facts are in.
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Old 03-21-18, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by SHBR
Open source is more than just code.

Like I said before, videos, logs, all of the people working on this project.

If this technology is as great as some claim it to be, there should be nothing to hide.
Nonsense. People and companies often hide trade secrets as a matter of routine, for basic business reasons, without any nefarious motives.
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Old 03-21-18, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by njkayaker
The open source world is weird.

Programming is hard and expensive.

Open source means that there is little point in expending that effort.
Nonsense. People write open source software because they're paid to do it. Open source doesn't mean not paid.
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Old 03-21-18, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
Other posters are declaring that the blame/cause is 100% on the victim or making excuses for Uber because the victim came from nowhere or was impossible to avoid prior to any real facts being released to the public. For reference see the following posts (note posts from one frequent poster of such declarations omitted).
Actually, it was because the person in charge of the investigation, who had looked at the crime scene, interviewed those involved, and watched videos of the accident, released that preliminary finding.

As I mentioned in the other thread, I don't count on seeing the video, or at least enough of it to make my own determination. Police don't release videos of fatalities, for good reason. As much as some posters want to claim this is a big conspiracy between the Tempe PD and the SF Chronicle to bolster Uber's image, the simple fact is that it is FAR more likely someone stepped out in an unavoidable manner. Big fan of Occam's Razor and such.
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Old 03-21-18, 11:08 AM
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Yeah ... how stupid to accept the published statement of the city's top law enforcement official as "evidence" of anything.

That kind of evidence sure wouldn't hold up in court ... oh, wait .......
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Old 03-21-18, 11:10 AM
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did any one hear about the first death from AV car.. ???
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Old 03-21-18, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by tyrion
Nonsense. People write open source software because they're paid to do it. Open source doesn't mean not paid.
No, not all of them nor for all of it.
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