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Would a self driving car world make it safe for cyclists?

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Would a self driving car world make it safe for cyclists?

Old 03-21-18, 02:41 PM
  #2276  
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Originally Posted by tyrion
This is known as the Trolley Problem. Everybody working in AI is well aware of it.
I'm disturbed by why it's such an ethical choice. It assumes an inherent social hierarcy based on the mode of transportation one is using.
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Old 03-21-18, 02:43 PM
  #2277  
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Originally Posted by tyrion
"the market required it" - they satisfy market requirements in order to make money.
The market saw Linux as a way of saving money.

They moved to Linux not to make money but to avoid losing it to competitors.

They didn't move to Linux to distinguish themselves but to make them equivalent (on some level) with competitors.

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Old 03-21-18, 02:45 PM
  #2278  
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Originally Posted by jefnvk
Investigators don't speak, at least not unless it is anonymously (which, if I can't listen to the Sheriff, should I listen to an anonymous source?). PR and the brass talk to press. That is pretty much SOP.



Well, when folks give more credibility to the notion that there is some conspiracy between the Tempe PD and SF Chronicle to bolster Uber's image than there is the chance that someone just stepped in front of a vehicle, folks don't come off as much more believable than flat earthers. Especially so when I look at SF Chronicle's coverage of Uber over the last 15 months and see any number of unattractive headlines: https://www.google.com/search?q=uber...16%2F2018&tbm=

Just a couple found in that search:

Suicide of an Uber engineer: Widow blames job stress
California tells Uber itís sloppy about ditching drunken drivers
Report: Secret Uber program 'Hell' spied on Lyft drivers
SF to Uber: Provide driver info ó itís the law
Uber hacking cover-up triggers government probes
Uber, Lyft drivers earn abysmal wages, according to disputed report

Can I accept that there is some tiny possibility Uber is actually buying everyone off? Sure, it isn't impossible. Do I think there is any sort of minuscule, remote probability? De nada.



Well, we agree on this

Although, I still contend many (even if not you) would argue that Uber doctored it in some way even if it were released and showed exactly what the sheriff said
uber under previous CEO was pretty clearly willing to hide, cheat, break the law and use other companies IP and if he were still in charge anything could be possible as to doctoring and obfuscation

New CEO is saying the right things and getting rid of the right people, but how much of the culture remains is an open question.
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Old 03-21-18, 02:45 PM
  #2279  
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Originally Posted by njkayaker
The market saw Linux as a way of saving money.

They moved to Linux not to make money but to avoid losing it to competitors.
Lol.
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Old 03-21-18, 02:47 PM
  #2280  
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The human brain is an amazing organ. It can process so much information whether you are aware of it or not in an instant.

The problem is how it is transferred into action, which as we all know is wrong too many times. Otherwise the 35000 road deaths a year in the US would be much lower and due to true accidents totally beyond control.

Computers would be programmed to react correctly but the problem is for it to process the same amount of information the human brain would be able to.
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Old 03-21-18, 02:49 PM
  #2281  
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Originally Posted by njkayaker
It's weird.

They are paid to do it but the result doesn't produce income directly.

The AV companies (at the moment) are looking at the effort/cost of writing software as a competitive advantage. (Just like Boeing and Airbus do.)

It doesn't make sense for them to give away the results of that expensive effort to their competitors.

Companies pay people to contribute to open source software because the alternative (proprietary software) is considered too expensive or not a competitive advantage.
AV companies are paying to write software because it is part of the IP (intellectual property) that will let them deliver the AV product, there is no way this will be open source, ever.

Reality is the even though Linux is "open source" many if not most companies do pay companies like Red Hat for linux and support.
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Old 03-21-18, 02:52 PM
  #2282  
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Originally Posted by Daniel4
I'm disturbed by why it's such an ethical choice. It assumes an inherent social hierarcy based on the mode of transportation one is using.

It's a statistical versus ethical choice with less potential deaths = more gooder.


A driver using ethics would potentially avoid a smaller number of toddlers and children while taking out a larger number of adults and old people. And people might agree with the choice.


The key to beat the other form of transportation is to simply ride in a larger group to make the machine think of you as less of a target.
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Old 03-21-18, 02:52 PM
  #2283  
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Originally Posted by Daniel4
I'm disturbed by why it's such an ethical choice. It assumes an inherent social hierarcy based on the mode of transportation one is using.
I don't see how mode of transportation is involved in the ethics of it.
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Old 03-21-18, 02:55 PM
  #2284  
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Originally Posted by squirtdad
AV companies are paying to write software because it is part of the IP (intellectual property) that will let them deliver the AV product, there is no way this will be open source, ever.
Yes (that's what I was saying).

Originally Posted by squirtdad
Reality is the even though Linux is "open source" many if not most companies do pay companies like Red Hat for linux and support.
Yes. But they pay less for that than they used to.

The move to Linux was mostly driven by it being "free" (or much less expensive than the alternatives).

Last edited by njkayaker; 03-21-18 at 03:08 PM.
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Old 03-21-18, 02:59 PM
  #2285  
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Originally Posted by tyrion
Lol.
Clients used to pay much more for OS software and support before the move to Linux.

They pay less with Linux.

Companies moved off of MVS to Unix in the 1990's because it was cheaper.
IBM lowered the cost to keep that migration from happening (it didn't work entirely).
Companies like HP moved to Linux because clients were choosing cheaper competitors using Linux.

The market refused to pay money for something when they could have good-enough Linux for significantly less.

Companies like IBM/HP had to move to Linux or lose clients.

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Old 03-21-18, 03:02 PM
  #2286  
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Originally Posted by squirtdad
uber under previous CEO was pretty clearly willing to hide, cheat, break the law and use other companies IP and if he were still in charge anything could be possible as to doctoring and obfuscation

New CEO is saying the right things and getting rid of the right people, but how much of the culture remains is an open question.
Don't take anything from my stance on this incident as support of Uber. They are an awful company I don't particularly like, however I am as capable of separating the company from the incident as I am the fact it was a homeless lady with a history of drug use that was killed as I am it was a felon operating the car. All points are immaterial to the incident itself.

And to bring it back to open source, if Linux is the better choice, I am kinda surprised why every computer I have ever been issued in the working world is closed source Windows.
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Old 03-21-18, 03:13 PM
  #2287  
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Originally Posted by jefnvk
And to bring it back to open source, if Linux is the better choice, I am kinda surprised why every computer I have ever been issued in the working world is closed source Windows.
You likely use Linux every day without being aware of it.

A big reason people use Windows is because that's the only thing Word/Excel run on.

Linux appears much more popular for big servers (which suggests it's the "better choice" there).
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Old 03-21-18, 03:17 PM
  #2288  
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One of the thorny ethical issues related to the trolley problem is "can I get a car that would favor the lives of its passengers over non passengers?"
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Old 03-21-18, 04:00 PM
  #2289  
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Originally Posted by jefnvk
Don't take anything from my stance on this incident as support of Uber. They are an awful company I don't particularly like, however I am as capable of separating the company from the incident as I am the fact it was a homeless lady with a history of drug use that was killed as I am it was a felon operating the car. All points are immaterial to the incident itself.

And to bring it back to open source, if Linux is the better choice, I am kinda surprised why every computer I have ever been issued in the working world is closed source Windows.
to be clear I am not disagreeing.... I think the key observation is that AV is susceptible to impossible to adjust for situations just like humans are, this could very well be one of those. the laws of physics apply. as to evidence, I think legislation will be required to make AV logs, videos etc accessible without a warrant and the will be huge legal fights about this (similar to fights about black boxes in current cars)


as to open source..... most of what we are talking about is OS (operating systems for servers) Unix use to rule with proprietary version linked to hardware SunOS for Solaris/Sparc etc, HPux for HP machines. Then Linus torvald creates Linux and it works on x86 architecture....and off we go to cheaper servers, cheaper OS...Sun dieing (we have a couple of Solaris around) etc.

however the majority of end user software is not open source (oracle, Siebel, Microsoft office, adobe etc)
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Old 03-21-18, 04:54 PM
  #2290  
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Originally Posted by tyrion
I don't see how mode of transportation is involved in the ethics of it.
Originally Posted by InOmaha
It's a statistical versus ethical choice with less potential deaths = more gooder.


A driver using ethics would potentially avoid a smaller number of toddlers and children while taking out a larger number of adults and old people. And people might agree with the choice.


The key to beat the other form of transportation is to simply ride in a larger group to make the machine think of you as less of a target.
Like I posted in #211, why can't the car choose itself? No lives lost. That's the minimum number.

Having to choose only between the bus of kids and the lone pedestrian means non-car people are lower in the social hierarchy than the people in the car, who are protected by seatbelts, airbags, and the strength of the frame and chassis.
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Old 03-21-18, 05:06 PM
  #2291  
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Originally Posted by Daniel4
Like I posted in #211, why can't the car choose itself? No lives lost. That's the minimum number.

Having to choose only between the bus of kids and the lone pedestrian means non-car people are lower in the social hierarchy than the people in the car, who are protected by seatbelts, airbags, and the strength of the frame and chassis.
I don't think there will be an encoded social hierarchy that favors people simply because they're in a vehicle.

People might desire a vehicle that favors itself over the rest of the world, but I think that would be outlawed.
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Old 03-21-18, 05:42 PM
  #2292  
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She crossed from the left.

https://slate.com/technology/2018/03..._recirc_recent

Why didn't she see the car coming?

The person in the car wasn't looking at the road (it appears).

Last edited by njkayaker; 03-21-18 at 05:45 PM.
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Old 03-21-18, 05:43 PM
  #2293  
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She crossed from the left.

https://slate.com/technology/2018/03..._recirc_recent

Why didn't she see the car coming?

The person in the car wasn't looking at the road (it appears).
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Old 03-21-18, 05:45 PM
  #2294  
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To Mr. Rogers there was no Trolley Problem. Prince Tuesday and Daniel Striped Tiger always listened when told to be careful near Trolley's tracks.

Boy, A&S would give the guys at Philosophy Talk a conundrum.
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Old 03-21-18, 06:00 PM
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Originally Posted by njkayaker
She crossed from the left.

https://slate.com/technology/2018/03..._recirc_recent

Why didn't she see the car coming?

The person in the car wasn't looking at the road (it appears).
Quite surprising the vehicle didn't "see" the woman and, the back-up totally wasn't paying attention.
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Old 03-21-18, 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by njkayaker
She crossed from the left.

https://slate.com/technology/2018/03..._recirc_recent

Why didn't she see the car coming?

The person in the car wasn't looking at the road (it appears).
Why didn't the vehicle "see" her crossing the road?
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Old 03-21-18, 06:15 PM
  #2297  
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Originally Posted by CB HI View Post
So the car was speeding, but it was all the pedestrians fault?
Originally Posted by prathmann
According to both the speed limit signs as seen on Google Streetview and a local resident who frequently rides there the actual speed limit is 45 mph rather than the 35 mph cited in the article. So the car was not speeding.
Well, according to the police that found no initial fault for Uber, the Uber car was traveling at about 40 mph in a 35 mph zone.

I am quite willing to accept that the police did not know what they were talking about.
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Old 03-21-18, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by njkayaker
The photo you are displaying is missing text associated with the right arrow.

"Elaine Herzberg was struck while walking her bike across the street somewhere in this area."

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...an-killed.html

It's not clear whether the right pointing arrow is indicating the direction she was moving (it certainly suggests the direction).

There is nothing that I've seen that clearly indicates what direction she was moving.
Based on the photo of the scene, the tacoed front wheel and the huge dent in the right side of the Uber hood plus the point of contact in the roads; leads me to believe the woman stopped off the sidewalk and was traveling the opposite direction of the arrow.
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Old 03-21-18, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by CB HI
Based on the photo of the scene, the tacoed front wheel and the huge dent in the right side of the Uber hood plus the point of contact in the roads; leads me to believe the woman stopped off the sidewalk and was traveling the opposite direction of the arrow.
You are just a bit behind the info. https://slate.com/technology/2018/03..._recirc_recent
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Old 03-21-18, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by 02Giant
Quite surprising the vehicle didn't "see" the woman and, the back-up totally wasn't paying attention.
I am curious about that as well, as those cars are equipped with LIDAR, and should not be effected by shadows.

Direct sunlight into the sensor is known to blind them, but why shadows would defeat LIDAR makes me scratch my head.

She might still have been hit, depending on the math, but the car should have been in emergency brake mode.

Edit: Here is the tech it uses. How does the pedestrian get missed by both LIDAR and RADAR?

https://techcrunch.com/2018/03/19/he...t-pedestrians/
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