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The resentment of bicycle riders by drivers.

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The resentment of bicycle riders by drivers.

Old 07-24-17, 05:14 PM
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The resentment of bicycle riders by drivers.

In my city there are many drivers who resent bike riders, they resent any tax money being spent on anything that benefits bicyclists, including the paint needed for a bike lane. My city does try to accommodate bicycle riders with designated bike lanes, MUPs, and here it is legal to ride your bike at a safe speed on the sidewalks (which are wide) except in a designated area of the downtown. The city is about 8 miles long and 3 miles wide so the busiest streets are 3 that go the length of the city and the problem is that to ride a bike on these streets is akin to a death wish since there are no bike lanes and the car lanes are not wide and close to the curb. Currently one of these streets is being widened and an attempt is being made to accommodate bicyclists but there is again the resentment by motorists about tax money being spent on bike riders who they will always cry about how we pay no road taxes because we buy no gas no have our bikes titled.

In my over 50 years of riding here I've learned to ride smart, not demand the right of way even if it is mine because I must win every close encounter with a motor vehicle, obey the rules of the road, and not go out of my way to antagonize the drivers of cars and trucks. Since I can legally ride on most sidewalks here I do that as much as possible if I need to go along the busy arterial streets (I've often ridden the 7 miles from my house to the other end of the city, much of it on the sidewalks, and usually only encounter a few people and then it's just like on a MUP), I ride side streets that parallel the busy ones, and I use the bike paths and trails. I've never been hit while riding but I have been knocked over by a car at night and had a dump truck pull away from a stop sign when I was walking in front of it.

I do admire the Dutch method of having a street, a curb, a bike path, another curb, and then a sidewalk. But then I think that drivers in the Netherlands have more respect for bicyclists than drivers do here in the U.S.
But then bike riders there get more actual training on how to properly and safely ride from a young age and so I would guess they probably obey the rules of the road more than they do here. I know that nothing makes drivers as mad as seeing someone on a bike routinely run a stop sign or a red light when the motorist would be at a higher risk of being ticketed. But ultimately I feel the most safe when I am physically separated from motor vehicles, but that costs money and there are still too many drivers who resent that money being spent.
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Old 07-24-17, 05:57 PM
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Originally Posted by AlexanderLS
Maybe you should point out that you also contribute to the roads. Don't let their ignorant cager arguments sway city council decisions.

People have the inaccurate delusion that vehicle registration and gas tax is enough for the roads, it's not. The remainder comes from general tax revenues. Every time you shop, you are paying for the roads/schools/city buildings.
Who Pays for Roads? | Frontier Group
They believe what they believe and what contradicts what they believe they simply unbelievably don't believe.
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Old 07-24-17, 06:10 PM
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Tell the next motorist who complains to thank a cyclist for subsidizing the road he is driving on. If cyclists were to pay their fair share, cyclists would get a rebate for the little space they are allotted.
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Old 07-24-17, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by AlexanderLS
Maybe you should point out that you also contribute to the roads. Don't let their ignorant cager arguments sway city council decisions.

People have the inaccurate delusion that vehicle registration and gas tax is enough for the roads, it's not. The remainder comes from general tax revenues. Every time you shop, you are paying for the roads/schools/city buildings.

Who Pays for Roads? | Frontier Group
And like I said in a different thread, if you also drive, you're paying just like them (but less gas) and you're not damaging the road like they are in their car/truck/SUV.
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Old 07-24-17, 06:26 PM
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If anyone asks, I remind them that when I ride from my house (on which I pay property tax), on my bike (on which I paid sales tax), to my job (from which I pay income tax), that revenue goes into the general fund, which pays the lion's share of the cost to build and maintain the streets I use.
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Old 07-24-17, 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by elocs
In my city there are many drivers who resent bike riders, they resent any tax money being spent on anything that benefits bicyclists, including the paint needed for a bike lane. My city does try to accommodate bicycle riders with designated bike lanes, MUPs, and here it is legal to ride your bike at a safe speed on the sidewalks (which are wide) except in a designated area of the downtown. The city is about 8 miles long and 3 miles wide so the busiest streets are 3 that go the length of the city and the problem is that to ride a bike on these streets is akin to a death wish since there are no bike lanes and the car lanes are not wide and close to the curb. Currently one of these streets is being widened and an attempt is being made to accommodate bicyclists but there is again the resentment by motorists about tax money being spent on bike riders who they will always cry about how we pay no road taxes because we buy no gas no have our bikes titled.

In my over 50 years of riding here I've learned to ride smart, not demand the right of way even if it is mine because I must win every close encounter with a motor vehicle, obey the rules of the road, and not go out of my way to antagonize the drivers of cars and trucks. Since I can legally ride on most sidewalks here I do that as much as possible if I need to go along the busy arterial streets (I've often ridden the 7 miles from my house to the other end of the city, much of it on the sidewalks, and usually only encounter a few people and then it's just like on a MUP), I ride side streets that parallel the busy ones, and I use the bike paths and trails. I've never been hit while riding but I have been knocked over by a car at night and had a dump truck pull away from a stop sign when I was walking in front of it.

I do admire the Dutch method of having a street, a curb, a bike path, another curb, and then a sidewalk. But then I think that drivers in the Netherlands have more respect for bicyclists than drivers do here in the U.S.
But then bike riders there get more actual training on how to properly and safely ride from a young age and so I would guess they probably obey the rules of the road more than they do here. I know that nothing makes drivers as mad as seeing someone on a bike routinely run a stop sign or a red light when the motorist would be at a higher risk of being ticketed. But ultimately I feel the most safe when I am physically separated from motor vehicles, but that costs money and there are still too many drivers who resent that money being spent.
What city? Your personal information does not say where you are. If you want useful information, local forum members might be able to help you. You will notice from my reply that people can tell where I live
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Old 07-25-17, 03:51 AM
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Originally Posted by alcjphil
What city? Your personal information does not say where you are. If you want useful information, local forum members might be able to help you. You will notice from my reply that people can tell where I live
I'm not asking for "help", I'm just stating my opinion. Others are free to express their own opinions and it doesn't matter to me if I don't know where they live--that's their choice to say or not.
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Old 07-26-17, 04:58 AM
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Originally Posted by elocs
I do admire the Dutch method of having a street, a curb, a bike path, another curb, and then a sidewalk. But then I think that drivers in the Netherlands have more respect for bicyclists than drivers do here in the U.S.
But then bike riders there get more actual training on how to properly and safely ride from a young age and so I would guess they probably obey the rules of the road more than they do here. I know that nothing makes drivers as mad as seeing someone on a bike routinely run a stop sign or a red light when the motorist would be at a higher risk of being ticketed. But ultimately I feel the most safe when I am physically separated from motor vehicles, but that costs money and there are still too many drivers who resent that money being spent.
You guessed wrong, the rules of the road become much less relevant with mass cycling and get broken a lot. I think people tend to underestimate the extend to which mass cycling is a game changer, I don't know what the critical mass is, but a lot of Dutch cities have been beyond that for years. Basically it's the motorists who need the rules of the road and for whom they are written down, cyclists go by other rules. Motorists can't negotiate, can't improvise, can't take evasive action and can't get close and have to avoid any chance of physical contact. So they need an authoritarian rule, top down, of all kind of general do's and don'ts that applie everywhere and always. It's the nature of a motor vehicle that requires such a rigid system of rules. It's not the road or any other space that makes the need for written down rigid rules, it's the means of transport. Thousands of pedestrians in an airport terminal don't need rules of the road to avoid injuries for example.

Cyclists are more like pedestrians than like motorists. Cyclist can communicate what way they want to go with their limbs and their bike, they can negotiate, they can make eye contact to get confirmation, they don't need more than a couple of inches space between them and can touch elbows. That allows for much more improvised and flexible behaviour. They need rules, more than pedestrians, but they go by unwritten and often subconscious rules. In Dutch cities it's usually not the cyclists that break the rules of the road who get in trouble, but tourists on rental bikes and freshly arrived expats who made sure they know the rules of the road but don't get the informal rules yet. Of course the formal rules get more important and the informal rules get less important where there are more motorists and less cyclists, but the transition is quite smooth.

It's not that there has never been resentment, mutual resentment that is, but that was in the days of conflict when motorists and cyclists looked at eachother as rivals for the same space. That has ended, cycling has won, now there's peaceful coexistence, it's not like motorists have been defeated and humiliated, they just have been forced to take a step back and most are okay with that and know it's for the better. That doesn't mean they enjoy it while in the car in a city, but they enjoy nicer cities too.
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Old 07-26-17, 05:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Stadjer
It's not that there has never been resentment, mutual resentment that is, but that was in the days of conflict when motorists and cyclists looked at eachother as rivals for the same space. That has ended, cycling has won, now there's peaceful coexistence
Well I guess not all of the motorists in my city have got the word yet that cycling has won. There's not peaceful coexistence here, and I'm sure in many other places as well--it's more like it's not worth the paperwork and hassle a driver must go through for hitting a bicyclist. I clearly understand my peril if while riding on a street I exercise my right to have my portion of the road. What I like about much of the Dutch system is how the bike paths are physically separated from the street by a curb because there are drivers, and they are the ones who would concern me while riding, who are more concerned about damaging their vehicles by hitting a curb than hitting a bike or giving the rider a heart attack.
I think that a lot of the resentment by motorists for bike riders is how so many bicyclists opt out of obeying the rules of the road. The bicyclists who routinely do that give us all a bad name.

Last edited by elocs; 07-26-17 at 06:12 AM.
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Old 07-26-17, 07:07 AM
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If you get to have a conversation with any of these drivers, remind the for every bike commuter they see, there is one more parking place down town.
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Old 07-26-17, 07:12 AM
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Originally Posted by elocs
Well I guess not all of the motorists in my city have got the word yet that cycling has won. There's not peaceful coexistence here, and I'm sure in many other places as well--it's more like it's not worth the paperwork and hassle a driver must go through for hitting a bicyclist. I clearly understand my peril if while riding on a street I exercise my right to have my portion of the road. What I like about much of the Dutch system is how the bike paths are physically separated from the street by a curb because there are drivers, and they are the ones who would concern me while riding, who are more concerned about damaging their vehicles by hitting a curb than hitting a bike or giving the rider a heart attack.
I like those roads with curbed bike paths to, but particularly when I'm driving a car. With mass cycling here seperate cycle paths serve the motorists more than the cyclists, because on the roads without curbed cycle pathes or even cycle lanes, the you've often got to adapt your speed to the slowest road user and there's a lot going on to pay attention to, driving on a road with a painted cycling lane or are curbed path is much more relaxed and much faster. As a cyclist I don't really mind having a car behind me.

Probably a much more important development that shaped Dutch cycling the way as it is now were a couple of supreme court decisions and a change in law. In case of a collision between a bike and car the cyclist can be liabel for the damage, but the burden of proof is on the driver, he will have to proof that the cyclist rode extremely dangerous or erratic because as a trained driver in control of a dangerous vehicle he should expect cyclists to break rules because that's what they do. And if the cyclist is fully to blame, he still got to pay half of the damages or his own damage because his choice of vehicle is what increased the damage done by a collision. That's mainly a matter of insurance companies, but it often will cost the driver in raised insurance premium. More importantly, it send out a message to drivers about there responsability and allthough not seen as fair by many motorists, it has changed the behaviour of drivers and they tend to at least accept that message and act accordingly.

I think that a lot of the resentment by motorists for bike riders is how so many bicyclists opt out of obeying the rules of the road. The bicyclists who routinely do that give us all a bad name.
No one likes surprises in traffic. I think beeing predictable, an unwritten rule in mass cycling, is more important but if everyone expects cyclists to obey the rules of the road, it helps the coexistence if they do. But in the past when there was still conflict, I did challenge that expectation because those rules are there for motorized traffic.

Nowadays I often break the rules, but also often in favour of motorists. I'm on a bike, I'm agile, I can improvise, and often a car is stuck in a narrow street or at a crossing he can only partly see, I'm happy to wave them through or ride around the rear over the sidewalk instead of claiming my formal right of way. I don't see why motorists shouldn't benefit from the freedom a bike offers, as they have to deal with the disadvantages too.
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Old 07-26-17, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by elocs
In my city
which city?
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Old 07-26-17, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by rumrunn6
which city?
Why the city where I have lived for 60 years of course.
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Old 07-26-17, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Stadjer
Cyclists are more like pedestrians than like motorists. Cyclist can communicate what way they want to go with their limbs and their bike, they can negotiate, they can make eye contact to get confirmation, they don't need more than a couple of inches space between them and can touch elbows. That allows for much more improvised and flexible behaviour. They need rules, more than pedestrians, but they go by unwritten and often subconscious rules. In Dutch cities it's usually not the cyclists that break the rules of the road who get in trouble, but tourists on rental bikes and freshly arrived expats who made sure they know the rules of the road but don't get the informal rules yet. Of course the formal rules get more important and the informal rules get less important where there are more motorists and less cyclists, but the transition is quite smooth.
Huh. The only crash I saw during my week in heaven was between two locals, one on a bike and the other on foot. More of an oof crash. But then again, I stayed out of the tourist mob as much as possible.

Also, on behavior, I found the locals quite rule obeying. If there was a bike signal, people obeyed the signal. If there was a queue waiting for the signal to change, people queued and waited. If you needed to push a beg button, people pushed the beg button (placed such that you could use the beg button stand to rest for a bit without dismounting). Less than a handful of red light runners all week.

Salmoning on one-way roads? Uitgezonderd.

Salmoning on one-way bicycle lanes. Drawing a blank.

As far as running stop signs, or treating stop signs as yield signs, the Dutch seem to have a trivial solution. I'm trying to remember a stop sign. Still trying to remember a stop sign. Even one stop sign. Coming up blank.

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Old 07-26-17, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by alcjphil
What city? Your personal information does not say where you are. If you want useful information, local forum members might be able to help you. You will notice from my reply that people can tell where I live
I'm not sure. Is that Montreal, Wisconsin, Montreal, Arkansas, Montreal, Georgia, or Montreal, Missouri?
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Old 07-26-17, 10:56 AM
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" But then I think that drivers in the Netherlands have more respect for bicyclists than drivers do here in the U.S."

they dont, thats why we have a to separate them from cyclists.

the whole dutch liability issue for cars is solved really easy nowadays; hit and run, just drive off and let the person bleed out is a lot safer for your license and cheaper than sticking around, its an obvious trend

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Old 07-26-17, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Stadjer
Thousands of pedestrians in an airport terminal don't need rules of the road to avoid injuries for example.
i always use that example (and amsterdam cs) to explain why rules arnt needed if no cars are around
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Old 07-26-17, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by kevindsingleton
I'm not sure. Is that Montreal, Wisconsin, Montreal, Arkansas, Montreal, Georgia, or Montreal, Missouri?
Yes.
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Old 07-26-17, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by AlexanderLS
I've never done it and I'm sure nobody here has.
That said, some cyclists have ran into pedestrians.
It does happen and we should obey the rules of the road for the safety of all.
Exercising extreme caution when pedestrians are in the area, especially children who are wildly unpredictable.
Yes, like bikes coming up like a bat out of hell from behind on people walking on a MUP.
In my city it is legal to ride on the sidewalks except for a specified area of the downtown but that comes with the requirement to approach pedestrians carefully and to give warning if coming up from behind. I have an ice cream truck bell which little kids like but also a loud battery horn which kids also like but is great for getting attention.
By riding on the sidewalks which are wide enough for passing safely I also get the same protection in the crosswalks as the pedestrians. This has worked well for me for decades of riding and I've never hit anyone walking or even come close.
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Old 07-26-17, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by mr_bill
Huh. The only crash I saw during my week in heaven was between two locals, one on a bike and the other on foot. More of an oof crash. But then again, I stayed out of the tourist mob as much as possible.

Also, on behavior, I found the locals quite rule obeying. If there was a bike signal, people obeyed the signal. If there was a queue waiting for the signal to change, people queued and waited. If you needed to push a beg button, people pushed the beg button (placed such that you could use the beg button stand to rest for a bit without dismounting). Less than a handful of red light runners all week.

Salmoning on one-way roads? Uitgezonderd.

Salmoning on one-way bicycle lanes. Drawing a blank.

As far as running stop signs, or treating stop signs as yield signs, the Dutch seem to have a trivial solution. I'm trying to remember a stop sign. Still trying to remember a stop sign. Even one stop sign. Coming up blank.

-mr. bill
Don't know which part of 'heaven' you've been to but in Amsterdam for example it's very busy up to midnight and there aren't many red lights worth running. And where there's a lot of cars the rules of the road force themselves upon the cyclists. It's also not that the Dutch don't care about an 'orderly' flow of traffic and most cyclists aren't angry young men in a competitive stat of mind, it's just that the rules of the road are only a small part of the 'rules' they go by and are subject to a decision to obey or not to obey.

A lot of the rules get broken. Every turn should be preceeded by a stretched arm signal, only 2 cyclists next to eachother are allowed, not 3, and only if it's no hinderance to traffic at all. One hand must always be on the handlebar so taking a turn while texting is not allowed, nor is riding with an umbrella for the same reason. And there are lot more en where there are hardly any cars or trams almost all of them get ignored when that's easier. Also salmoning one way streets used to be not allowed, but 'uitgezonderd' is the codification of regular rule breaking that went all right. Salmoning on a one way cycle path is much more dangerous and annoying, so most will choose to cross the road for the cycle path in the right direction. Taking a right turn at red light is also allowed after cyclists judged it to be safe enough in great numbers.

What causes crashes it cyclists who are unpredictable and who don't negotiate and don't look what others are about to do. Cyclist don't need to make the hand sign to show that they want to take a turn, their leg movement and posture usually is a give away.

The octangular stop sign is hardly used anymore, it's usually replaced by a traffic light, a roundabout or the regular priority sign.
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Old 07-26-17, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Stadjer
Don't know which part of 'heaven' you've been to but in Amsterdam for example it's very busy up to midnight and there aren't many red lights worth running. And where there's a lot of cars the rules of the road force themselves upon the cyclists. It's also not that the Dutch don't care about an 'orderly' flow of traffic and most cyclists aren't angry young men in a competitive stat of mind, it's just that the rules of the road are only a small part of the 'rules' they go by and are subject to a decision to obey or not to obey.

A lot of the rules get broken. Every turn should be preceeded by a stretched arm signal, only 2 cyclists next to eachother are allowed, not 3, and only if it's no hinderance to traffic at all. One hand must always be on the handlebar so taking a turn while texting is not allowed, nor is riding with an umbrella for the same reason. And there are lot more en where there are hardly any cars or trams almost all of them get ignored when that's easier. Also salmoning one way streets used to be not allowed, but 'uitgezonderd' is the codification of regular rule breaking that went all right. Salmoning on a one way cycle path is much more dangerous and annoying, so most will choose to cross the road for the cycle path in the right direction. Taking a right turn at red light is also allowed after cyclists judged it to be safe enough in great numbers.

What causes crashes it cyclists who are unpredictable and who don't negotiate and don't look what others are about to do. Cyclist don't need to make the hand sign to show that they want to take a turn, their leg movement and posture usually is a give away.

The octangular stop sign is hardly used anymore, it's usually replaced by a traffic light, a roundabout or the regular priority sign.
What I like about the Dutch system is where they have bike lanes that are physically separated from the streets by a curb. Here it is usually just a painted line on the street which doesn't do much to stop cars when they are going around another one turning left. They even have here some wide bike lanes to accommodate parking and post signs that would have bikes ride in the lane closest to traffic where I routinely see cars and trucks driving over that line. I'd prefer a bike lane physically separated from the road anytime.
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Old 07-26-17, 08:43 PM
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Originally Posted by elocs
In my city there are many drivers who resent bike riders, they resent any tax money being spent on anything that benefits bicyclists, including the paint needed for a bike lane. My city does try to accommodate bicycle riders with designated bike lanes, MUPs, and here it is legal to ride your bike at a safe speed on the sidewalks (which are wide) except in a designated area of the downtown. The city is about 8 miles long and 3 miles wide so the busiest streets are 3 that go the length of the city and the problem is that to ride a bike on these streets is akin to a death wish since there are no bike lanes and the car lanes are not wide and close to the curb. Currently one of these streets is being widened and an attempt is being made to accommodate bicyclists but there is again the resentment by motorists about tax money being spent on bike riders who they will always cry about how we pay no road taxes because we buy no gas no have our bikes titled.

In my over 50 years of riding here I've learned to ride smart, not demand the right of way even if it is mine because I must win every close encounter with a motor vehicle, obey the rules of the road, and not go out of my way to antagonize the drivers of cars and trucks. Since I can legally ride on most sidewalks here I do that as much as possible if I need to go along the busy arterial streets (I've often ridden the 7 miles from my house to the other end of the city, much of it on the sidewalks, and usually only encounter a few people and then it's just like on a MUP), I ride side streets that parallel the busy ones, and I use the bike paths and trails. I've never been hit while riding but I have been knocked over by a car at night and had a dump truck pull away from a stop sign when I was walking in front of it.

I do admire the Dutch method of having a street, a curb, a bike path, another curb, and then a sidewalk. But then I think that drivers in the Netherlands have more respect for bicyclists than drivers do here in the U.S.
But then bike riders there get more actual training on how to properly and safely ride from a young age and so I would guess they probably obey the rules of the road more than they do here. I know that nothing makes drivers as mad as seeing someone on a bike routinely run a stop sign or a red light when the motorist would be at a higher risk of being ticketed. But ultimately I feel the most safe when I am physically separated from motor vehicles, but that costs money and there are still too many drivers who resent that money being spent.
Hmmmm.....I wonder what city you live in, the speed limits of the streets in question, and the width of the streets before they are being widened.

I am glad you can ride a bike on a sidewalk, or a MUP.

Yes, The Dutch have it right.
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Old 07-26-17, 10:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris0516
Hmmmm.....I wonder what city you live in, the speed limits of the streets in question, and the width of the streets before they are being widened.
I am glad you can ride a bike on a sidewalk, or a MUP.
Yes, The Dutch have it right.
Since you wonder nicely and are not demanding I will tell you that I live in La Crosse, Wisconsin. It's a city of around 50,000 that is located on a prairie of a Mississippi River valley so it is flat but surrounded by rolling bluffs. It is in a unique area of the world called the Driftless Area because the glaciers went around it.
We have a good number of bike lanes that were created by painting a line on the road and on busy streets that's not much protection since vehicles routinely will drive on the white line. I like our MUPs because I don't need to worry about encountering cars on them. I like being able to legally ride on the sidewalks for the same reason, but if I encounter a car there I know I am in trouble. I know the city well enough that I just cobble together a route to ride that is on the sidewalks by busy streets, and then using side streets with little traffic as well as the MUPs. The side streets have a speed limit of 25 mph and they are not narrow since there is street parking on both sides. The arterial streets are not really narrow either and have a speed limit of 30 so traffic routinely moves at 40 or faster. These streets were originally just 1 lane in each direction and then widened by taking out boulevard trees to make 2 lanes but they still leave little room on the right for a bike and you only rarely see bicyclists trying to ride there.
Our state DOT is about to set to work to widen a portion of one of these busy streets and try to accommodate bikes but in order to create a protected bike lane they would need to acquire more property and businesses and that is not popular at all. And nobody wants their kids riding in a bike lane that is nothing more than a painted line on the streets in close proximity to fast moving cars. That is a section of road where I always ride of the sidewalk and it is over a mile long and I have rarely encountered any pedestrians. But it is the only way to get to the far south end of the city and there are no good side streets that parallel it.
But the long and short of what I've seen riding here for decades is that there are still too many motorists who resent bikes either being on the road or seeing their tax dollars spent for bike trails. I have to admit though that my riding a long wheel based recumbent tends to get me noticed more and gathers more attention from drivers. But there is also a lot of bike tourism in this area because we are not far from the famous Sparta-Elroy bike trail. Wisconsin had the first rails to trails bikeways but they are gravel and not paved so I don't care that much for them, but my kids loved going through the mile long train tunnel when they were little.

As an aside, I have a Dutch friend and we email each other and he very often uses "hmmmmm" when he writes and he has even used that as an online name.
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Old 07-27-17, 02:58 AM
  #24  
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Originally Posted by elocs
Since you wonder nicely and are not demanding I will tell you that I live in La Crosse, Wisconsin. It's a city of around 50,000 that is located on a prairie of a Mississippi River valley so it is flat but surrounded by rolling bluffs. It is in a unique area of the world called the Driftless Area because the glaciers went around it.
Ah, I lived in Duluth(Minn.) for four years(Nov.'02-Jan.'07), across from Superior(Wis.), right at the shores of Lake Superior. So, I lived in hilly terrain.
Originally Posted by elocs
We have a good number of bike lanes that were created by painting a line on the road and on busy streets that's not much protection since vehicles routinely will drive on the white line. I like our MUPs because I don't need to worry about encountering cars on them. I like being able to legally ride on the sidewalks for the same reason, but if I encounter a car there I know I am in trouble. I know the city well enough that I just cobble together a route to ride that is on the sidewalks by busy streets, and then using side streets with little traffic as well as the MUPs. The side streets have a speed limit of 25 mph and they are not narrow since there is street parking on both sides. The arterial streets are not really narrow either and have a speed limit of 30 so traffic routinely moves at 40 or faster. These streets were originally just 1 lane in each direction and then widened by taking out boulevard trees to make 2 lanes but they still leave little room on the right for a bike and you only rarely see bicyclists trying to ride there.
I don't use bike lanes for the same reason. I stay off MUPs', but my reason is because of my physical health. If I were to have a shunt failure, or a seizure. The probability that someone would notice me soon, is next to nothing. So I ride on the road. So I am noticed. I encounter cars all the time. I 'take the lane' on the road, and go 25-30mph. The speed limits on surface streets, are 15-50mph. I don't ride where it is 45-50mph, and I live in suburbia. Where there is a lot of traffic congestion, and traffic lights. I 'cobble' my routes together, too. I recently changed locations of my pharmacy. From a location, only a few miles away. To another location further away. The old location, I could meander on 30mph two-lane roads with very little traffic, to get to it. The new location means I have to take a four-lane divided arterial to get there. It isn't great traffic-wise. But they don't mess with my life-saving prescribed meds., like the other location did. I could take the bus over there, but it would take twice as long.
Originally Posted by elocs
Our state DOT is about to set to work to widen a portion of one of these busy streets and try to accommodate bikes but in order to create a protected bike lane they would need to acquire more property and businesses and that is not popular at all. And nobody wants their kids riding in a bike lane that is nothing more than a painted line on the streets in close proximity to fast moving cars. That is a section of road where I always ride of the sidewalk and it is over a mile long and I have rarely encountered any pedestrians. But it is the only way to get to the far south end of the city and there are no good side streets that parallel it.
There has been a lot of road-widening around here, the past five years. I see kids riding on the roads around here. Who aren't skilled enough to be riding on a busy road.
Originally Posted by elocs
But the long and short of what I've seen riding here for decades is that there are still too many motorists who resent bikes either being on the road or seeing their tax dollars spent for bike trails. I have to admit though that my riding a long wheel based recumbent tends to get me noticed more and gathers more attention from drivers. But there is also a lot of bike tourism in this area because we are not far from the famous Sparta-Elroy bike trail. Wisconsin had the first rails to trails bikeways but they are gravel and not paved so I don't care that much for them, but my kids loved going through the mile long train tunnel when they were little.
There are a lot of motorists' in the Washington, DC Metro region who still resent bikes being on the road. That is despite all the improvements to the bike laws in the region.

I was on a two-lane 30mph blacktop this afternoon, going 20mph. There were four or five vehicles behind me. One of them, near the back of the 'line' couldn't resist the urge to honk at me, from that far back. I ignored them and kept going. I didn't have far to go, to get to my destination.
Originally Posted by elocs
As an aside, I have a Dutch friend and we email each other and he very often uses "hmmmmm" when he writes and he has even used that as an online name.
Has hmmm visited whosiwhatsit, whatchamacallit, or thigamajig, also forgetmenot? LOL

Last edited by Chris0516; 07-27-17 at 03:05 AM.
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Old 07-27-17, 11:28 AM
  #25  
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Originally Posted by Chris0516
Ah, I lived in Duluth(Minn.) for four years(Nov.'02-Jan.'07), across from Superior(Wis.), right at the shores of Lake Superior. So, I lived in hilly terrain.

I don't use bike lanes for the same reason. I stay off MUPs', but my reason is because of my physical health. If I were to have a shunt failure, or a seizure. The probability that someone would notice me soon, is next to nothing. So I ride on the road. So I am noticed. I encounter cars all the time. I 'take the lane' on the road, and go 25-30mph. The speed limits on surface streets, are 15-50mph. I don't ride where it is 45-50mph, and I live in suburbia. Where there is a lot of traffic congestion, and traffic lights. I 'cobble' my routes together, too. I recently changed locations of my pharmacy. From a location, only a few miles away. To another location further away. The old location, I could meander on 30mph two-lane roads with very little traffic, to get to it. The new location means I have to take a four-lane divided arterial to get there. It isn't great traffic-wise. But they don't mess with my life-saving prescribed meds., like the other location did. I could take the bus over there, but it would take twice as long.

I was on a two-lane 30mph blacktop this afternoon, going 20mph. There were four or five vehicles behind me. One of them, near the back of the 'line' couldn't resist the urge to honk at me, from that far back. I ignored them and kept going. I didn't have far to go, to get to my destination.
I can appreciate why you would avoid MUPs. Here most of them are on the edges of the city or through the large marsh in the center of town and except for in the middle of the day you do not see many people on them at one time because they are more spread out. I have not seen a bicyclist "take the lane" here in years because the law says you must ride as far to the right as safely possible and the police not only frown upon bicyclists riding in the middle of a lane of traffic with cars backed up behind them, the cops will ticket them for obstruction of traffic.
Myself, I ride to enjoy the journey and seldom go faster than 10 mph unless I'm going downhill and especially when I am pulling a loaded cargo trailer that could have hundreds of pounds in it.

But we all must choose to ride the best we can for each of us and the riding situation in every place is different.
I feel the most safe riding where I know I won't encounter a motor vehicle, especially to day with drivers even more distracted by talking on cellphone or texting. I even see people texting while riding their bikes. Unbelievable.
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