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Originally Posted by Doohickie
(Post 19888943)
I've been doing it for years, no problems yet. In fact, that's never happened to me in a car either.
(If you're that afraid of cars, you should probably just stick with the sidewalks or maybe the track at your local middle school.) I'll bet you're still trying to get clipped in when the driver behind you sees the green, goes, and has to slam on the brakes to "give you a moment". Then, they all proceed around the corner at 5mph, behind you. |
The only motor traffic lanes I am aware of are on limited access freeways which don't have traffic lights.
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Originally Posted by 1989Pre
(Post 19889214)
Just by policy, I try to stay out of motor traffic lanes. Go ahead and pretend you are "part of traffic". What a joke.
I'll bet you're still trying to get clipped in when the driver behind you sees the green, goes, and has to slam on the brakes to "give you a moment". Then, they all proceed around the corner at 5mph, behind you. |
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Originally Posted by WNCGoater
(Post 19889082)
This. When I approach any intersection, I take my spot in the center of the lane. As I proceed or after I proceed through, depending on the intersection and circumstances, I'll move back to the right. No way am I pulling up alongside a car waiting on a light. Can't imagine why OP is up beside the car.
if I were going left, I would have to get in that left only lane. (blue arrow) if I was first, I would take that lane at the front, then while crossing the intersection move right to let following cars pass. if there were cars in front of me, I would not filter up, I don't think, but not sure cuz I never got left here https://i.imgur.com/jZscp6f.jpg |
Originally Posted by rumrunn6
(Post 19890271)
reminded me of this intersection near me. when going straight I continue until the light turns red. cars are continually passing me. it wouldn't make sense to stop anywhere else but the stop line at the head of the line & place 1 foot on the curb. (red arrow) when the light turns green, I wait for the lead car to start, then I start. makes no sense to start first cuz they'll be passing me immediately anyway. sometimes, I'll look back & there are only 3 cars, I'll wait until they all pass me before I start.
if I were going left, I would have to get in that left only lane. (blue arrow) if I was first, I would take that lane at the front, then while crossing the intersection move right to let following cars pass. if there were cars in front of my I would not filter up, I don't think, but not sure cuz I never got left here https://i.imgur.com/jZscp6f.jpg But there is a qualifier there in that any right turns would be made before the stop light. I would maybe handle if differently if they were turning right up at the head of the line. Left turn I would handle as you stated. And all that is particular to this intersection. Each intersection is different so I approach things according to the intersection, traffic, etc. I try to handle any intersection in a way for motorists to accurately understand my intentions and at the same time, being respectful of them and moving right asap. |
Originally Posted by 1989Pre
(Post 19889214)
Just by policy, I try to stay out of motor traffic lanes. Go ahead and pretend you are "part of traffic". What a joke.
I'll bet you're still trying to get clipped in when the driver behind you sees the green, goes, and has to slam on the brakes to "give you a moment". Then, they all proceed around the corner at 5mph, behind you. You have to take a moment to get clipped in? Keep one foot clipped and when the light changes start pedaling. Clip in at some point. You can't pedal without both feet clipped in? Not sure how you clip in both feet before proceeding. :foo: In NC you ARE classified as a vehicle and thus by default, you ARE a part of traffic and subject to all the same laws. No pretending about it & not a joke. Riding on the road, in traffic, through intersections...all takes a willingness to give and take, some attentiveness, some courtesy, and a lot of common sense. YMMV |
Originally Posted by 1989Pre
(Post 19889214)
Just by policy, I try to stay out of motor traffic lanes. Go ahead and pretend you are "part of traffic". What a joke.
I'll bet you're still trying to get clipped in when the driver behind you sees the green, goes, and has to slam on the brakes to "give you a moment". Then, they all proceed around the corner at 5mph, behind you. The joke would be me following some roundabout path on sidewalks to avoid using the left turn lane. |
Originally Posted by rumrunn6
(Post 19890271)
so many variables, but you reminded me of this intersection near me. when going straight I continue until the light turns red. cars are continually passing me. it wouldn't make sense to stop anywhere else but the stop line at the head of the line & place 1 foot on the curb. (red arrow) when the light turns green, I wait for the lead car to start, then I start. makes no sense to start first cuz they'll be passing me immediately anyway. sometimes, I'll look back & if there are only 3 cars, I'll wait until they all pass me before I start.
if I were going left, I would have to get in that left only lane. (blue arrow) if I was first, I would take that lane at the front, then while crossing the intersection move right to let following cars pass. if there were cars in front of me, I would not filter up, I don't think, but not sure cuz I never got left here https://i.imgur.com/jZscp6f.jpg |
Originally Posted by noisebeam
(Post 19890874)
I would drive approx on top of the "Parker St.' imposed lettering so as to reduce right hook. Whether I allow vehicle adjacent to me when traveling thru would depend on road condition after the intersection as well as opportunity to proactively prevent right turns which would not be expected due to earlier right merge. Neither of these can be known until one has experience with intersection so I'd line up at first until I learned the patterns & conditions.
FWIW, it's fantasy to think that your lane position will reduce a right hook there. If you ride on "Parker St." when (not if) you hear a car going over the cobbles it means that they are turning left or going straight or turning right. My first job in MA. -mr. bill |
Originally Posted by mr_bill
(Post 19890888)
Well, I have ridden through that intersection, and I've gone straight, right and left there.
FWIW, it's fantasy to think that your lane position will reduce a right hook there. If you ride on "Parker St." when (not if) you hear a car going over the cobbles it means that they are turning left or going straight or turning right. -mr. bill i know you disagree and can suggest the audacity of me suggesting otherwise to someone who had actually driven thru this specific place, but this intersection design is quite common as are motorist behaviors. |
Originally Posted by noisebeam
(Post 19890929)
i know you disagree and can suggest the audacity of me suggesting otherwise to someone who had actually driven thru this specific place, but this intersection design is quite common as are motorist behaviors.
The only predictable motorist behavior we have is unpredictable behavior. There is no such thing as "allow." (BTW, what is the hand signal for I'm going straight?) But there actually is a lane position that will reduce the right hook - salmon. Won't recommend it. -mr. bill |
I have cycled thousands of miles in MA. I grew up there and was in HS cycling club.
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So you should know that a right turning car driver would never have another car driver going straight to the right, unless they are driving in Massachusetts and making a right turn from the left hand lane.
I almost got right hooked the other day. I was driving a car. My lane position - THE LANE! -mr. bill |
Yikes, holy ****, that sounds crazy dangerous. Get in the turn lane if you're turning.
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Your bike is a vehicle on the road. You should be in line behind the lead car, not next to it.
If you were driving a car you wouldn't be next to the lead car. So you shouldn't be on a bike. That's a good general rule. If you wouldn't do it in a car, you shouldn't do it on a bike. (Applies to traffic rules only, like running red lights and bumping pedestrians) I do this exact scenario when I commute. It's scary as hell every time. I make a left turn onto a busy road. I don't actually ride on the busy road. I bail out at the end of the left turn onto a multi purpose path to the right of the street. But while making that left I'm in the middle of the lane waiting for green like every other car. I also find that I can accelerate faster than the cars do. (Not faster than the cars CAN. Faster than they DO. Drivers act like grandmas when a light turns green) So while I can't keep pace with 40 mph traffic on the road I'm turning onto, I can stay at speed with the cars after the green light long enough to get through the intersection and onto the much safer path. |
Another tip: When stopping behind the vehicle in front of you leave a bike length or more between which allows you to start rolling and clip in before traffic gets moving much.
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For me, each intersection is a little different. And, I suppose it depends on my mood.
Basic Left turn into a right side bike path: I usually line up to the right side of the left turn lane, usually behind the last car in the lane. Short duration Left Turn Signals (Low traffic):I often hit the intersection at a sprint, trying to keep up with traffic. Now, it depends a bit on the expected light duration. If I expect the light to give me a full duration crossing, then I aim my bike directly towards the center of the righthand oncoming traffic lane. Then cut left as I get across the intersection. This allows passing cars to clear me at any time they choose, and also makes myself visible to oncoming traffic should they get a chance to move. I will occasionally lane split between the turn lane and the straight lane, but generally only if there is a really long line of turning traffic, and not a lot of straight traffic. Note, for two lanes of turning traffic, I'll generally be on the right side of the right turning lane. This does put me more or less in the middle of the road, but gets me best lined up for my destination. The one place I most commonly hit this situation, I believe both lanes originate from a single left traffic lane, so the positioning is easy. I plan ahead for the maneuver a couple of blocks in advance. These are a little tricky.I generally cut left as quick as possible, sometimes following the crosswalk across. This gets me out of the oncoming traffic that may get the green when I'm in the middle of the intersection. I'm usually across the first cross travel lane, and in the middle of the second cross travel lane. In this case, being further to my left creates a longer buffer before cross traffic may arrive. Perhaps also improves my visibility. Left turn onto a center strip (left hand) bike lane:Of course, this also depends on not having a lot of turning traffic behind me, but they can also wait. The lights may also stay green better if there is traffic behind me. And, there is the expectation that cross traffic will respect the intersection more if there are cars around me. Perhaps a really special case. But this is also a sign of the importance of lane positioning. In this case, I'll position myself behind the last car, but to the left side of the turn lane. Left turn lane, mostly T intersection with a minimal business road going straight:Once the light has changed, and oncoming traffic has cleared, I'll generally cut into the middle of the oncoming traffic lane and head towards the bike lane island. Note, the one road I hit this also has turning cross traffic going around another small island, so turning cross traffic doesn't cross my path. The place I'm most likely to hit this splits into 3 lanes. Two left turn lanes, one straight/right lane, and a bike path to the right side of the road. Basic Square Turn:I find it most convenient to lane-split just to the right of the two left turning lanes. I position myself as far to the left as possible, but still in the STRAIGHT lane, and allow right turning cars to go around me (right on red). I'd prefer not to be stuck in the bike path in this situation. As above, I usually go straight towards the oncoming lane, then swing left. Always keep this in my repertoire. If for some reason I deem it not possible or practical to go to the left turn lane, or perhaps I'm late in the light cycle and can get across easier when going straight, then I'll stay to the right, go straight across, stop at the opposite side, flip the rear end of my bike around and be ready for the new light going straight in the desired direction. |
I always take the lane, directly in the center, not just when in a turning lane, regardless if right or left, but also when at any stop - I do this so I'm clear of cars turning.
I have no problem being in the front, because I'm so much faster than cars starting off, but I don't automatically go to the front, I just take my natural position in the line. Stay in the lane until the car in front starts gaining distance, but always be ready for the car(s) in front to make a 90-degree turn into a driveway (i.e. a gas station or whatever...), that's why you want to be in the center lane, so you can prevent a Righthook and that the driver in front of you can see that you are clear, so he can turn. As someone already said, a lot of drivers are not use to seeing this, because we are a minority on the roads and many of the cyclists out there don't follow rules of the roads, but the cycling laws support doing this 100%. |
Originally Posted by work4bike
(Post 19895228)
I always take the lane, directly in the center, not just when in a turning lane, regardless if right or left, but also when at any stop - I do this so I'm clear of cars turning.
I have no problem being in the front, because I'm so much faster than cars starting off, but I don't automatically go to the front, I just take my natural position in the line. Stay in the lane until the car in front starts gaining distance, but always be ready for the car(s) in front to make a 90-degree turn into a driveway (i.e. a gas station or whatever...), that's why you want to be in the center lane, so you can prevent a Righthook and that the driver in front of you can see that you are clear, so he can turn. As someone already said, a lot of drivers are not use to seeing this, because we are a minority on the roads and many of the cyclists out there don't follow rules of the roads, but the cycling laws support doing this 100%. |
Why wouldn't you simply take the left turn lane like any other vehicle operator?
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A video I made ~10yr ago which may show the two versions of left turn: The OP-type and using the LTOL lane.
Note the cyclist who turned left from the right got ahead, but this was as the left turning vehicles were waiting for a pedestrian to cross. The lead driver could have turned quickly as the ped hadn't reached centerline yet, but they were appropriately polite/safe and waited. |
Originally Posted by bbbean
(Post 19895928)
Why wouldn't you simply take the left turn lane like any other vehicle operator?
Continue straight the intersection in the rightmost thru lane, and then queue up in FRONT of all the queue of cars on the intersecting road. It can not only be faster than a left turn only lane, it can also be safer. Example, a particular intersection with a Left Turn/U-Turn lane with a sensor that will NEVER be triggered by a person on a bicycle, and where very few cars/taxis/ubers/lyfts are likely to make the left turn to the hotel. At rush hours "any other vehicle operator" have mostly self-corked the intersection because of bridge construction nearby. There is no way to safely "dead-red" the intersection during these times, but we don't have the dead-red law - yet - anyway. It is currently making it's way through the legislature though, it's an "omnibus" road safety bill that may or may not make it through this year. (Yes, the sensor problem has been reported. Yes, it's scheduled to be fixed at the next major reconstruction of the road. That reconstruction is not in the current five year plan.) What would YOU do? -mr. bill |
Originally Posted by WNCGoater
(Post 19890312)
On the right, if I were in the front, like you I would probably be on the right, allowing the lead car to pull up beside me. When the light changed, I would proceed through keeping toward the right and most of the cars would pass as we proceeded through the intersection.
Since I keep my maneuver slow, steady and even, I almost never hear a toot from a horn. This was the first time. The only time I feel any concern when turning beside the lead car is when the opposite direction is also getting their "left turn only" green arrow. Then, I have to squeeze between these opposing, curving channels. Even then, it is no real problem. I do not consider cuing with cars to be advisable, either from a practical standpoint or in regards to manners. Motorists are still unused to seeing bicycles in their lane, and could be confused about it. It seems to me that there should be little fluidity or flexibility in regards to traffic laws: Develop a system and stick with it, so that everybody knows what to expect. Any driver who suspects that I may dart crazily in front of them during the left turn will be reassured once they see how smoothly it is going. |
Originally Posted by mr_bill
(Post 19896200)
What would YOU do?
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