How to bike on a stroad (awesome article!)
#26
Been Around Awhile
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 29,959
Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked 1,528 Times
in
1,041 Posts
The question would not come up as often if the promoters of vehicular cycling (by whatever name is currently in vogue) would limit their unsubstantiated claims about VC-type lane positioning reducing cycling risk to the subsection in A&S set aside for vehicular cycling
#27
Banned
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,341
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 959 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Right. I know of one poster who fully "took the lane" with a light tower mounted on back, on a 50+ mph roadway daily for years because it was the safest way to ride it. He had no "credible evidence" it was safer, and apparently didn't need any. Yet he questions what evidence others have when they say VC style techniques work for them.
It's not like a distracted driver looks away from the road for even 10 seconds. It's practically impossible to maintain course for more than 3 or 4 seconds without looking up and making any necessary adjustments (try it, with someone else covering for you, of course).
So that's what distracted drivers do - they look up from their distraction (usually texting or whatever) for at least a glance every few seconds. And during each one of those glances where do they look? STRAIGHT AHEAD WHERE THEY ARE GOING. Are they going to bother looking off to the side where (they believe) they are not going? Highly unlikely. A cyclist on a shoulder or in a bike lane is relatively irrelevant to them, and likely to go completely unnoticed. But a cyclist straight ahead in their lane? THAT is going to grab their attention. Believe me, I see this confirmed in my mirror all the time.
And it's not rocket science. John Franklin described the driver's "zone of maximum surveillance" decades ago:
"Motorists primarily give their attention to that part of the highway
where there is risk to themselves: they are not nearly so good at
noticing anything outside their path. This zone of maximum
surveillance is often very narrow, especially at higher speeds -- it
does not extend to much more than the moving traffic lane that the
driver is following, plus the moving traffic lanes are most likely to
conflict with the driver's own movement. For you to be safest as a
cyclist, you should ride within this zone of maximum surveillance, not
outside it." (Cyclecraft, p. 58)
And of course Keri Caffrey presented the concept graphically:
Why so many cyclists are resistant to recognizing this is how human drivers behave and how that should affect where cyclists position themselves is beyond me.
Many seem to think, "why do I care whether they notice me or not? - I just want them to pass me in their lane while I'm in mine". And there's the rub. The driver looks up, sees nothing of relevance (the cyclist up ahead is "out of the way", and, so, goes unnoticed), and they go back to attending to their distraction. But this time, they drift a bit further off course before they look up again...
#28
20+mph Commuter
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Greenville. SC USA
Posts: 7,512
Bikes: Surly LHT, Surly Lowside, a folding bike, and a beater.
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1430 Post(s)
Liked 330 Times
in
218 Posts
Have you read the article? The approach taken by CyclingSavvy is not to tell people what to do or how to ride, but to present the various options and pros and cons of each. Ultimately, each cyclist has to make his or her own decisions, of course.
Do you think the article is referring to any "rigid cycling dogma"? If so, what? (please quote). If not, why are you talking about that here?
Plenty of folks all over the country use the full lane in narrow lanes at sub-10 mph, whether climbing, pulling a kid or a lot of gear, or just a newbie slow cyclist who is a recent CyclingSavvy graduate; and generally they report much better treatment from motorists when doing that than when edge riding.
Yes, the statistics would be very difficult to collect, if not impossible.
Do you think the article is referring to any "rigid cycling dogma"? If so, what? (please quote). If not, why are you talking about that here?
Plenty of folks all over the country use the full lane in narrow lanes at sub-10 mph, whether climbing, pulling a kid or a lot of gear, or just a newbie slow cyclist who is a recent CyclingSavvy graduate; and generally they report much better treatment from motorists when doing that than when edge riding.
Yes, the statistics would be very difficult to collect, if not impossible.
#29
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Memphis TN area
Posts: 7,391
Bikes: 2011 Felt Z85 (road/commuter), 2006 Marin Pine Mountain (utility/commuter E-bike), 1995 KHS Alite 1000 (gravel grinder)
Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 676 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 13 Times
in
13 Posts
This is a study of motorist passing behavior as it relates to cyclist lane position, on a multi-lane roadway with narrow outside lanes. The results:
Riding near the gutter: multiple close in-lane passes, multiple straddle-lane passes, and multiple full lane change passes.
Riding in the right tire track: Fewer in-lane and straddle passes, more lane change passes.
Riding centered in the lane: ALL lane-change passes, and ZERO close or straddle passes.
This mirrors my long-term experience almost exactly. I think I'll keep doing what I'm doing, because I want more lane change passes, and fewer (or none is preferred) close passes.
https://www.iamtraffic.org/wp-content...ngDistance.pdf
Riding near the gutter: multiple close in-lane passes, multiple straddle-lane passes, and multiple full lane change passes.
Riding in the right tire track: Fewer in-lane and straddle passes, more lane change passes.
Riding centered in the lane: ALL lane-change passes, and ZERO close or straddle passes.
This mirrors my long-term experience almost exactly. I think I'll keep doing what I'm doing, because I want more lane change passes, and fewer (or none is preferred) close passes.
https://www.iamtraffic.org/wp-content...ngDistance.pdf
#30
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 4,530
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2112 Post(s)
Liked 663 Times
in
443 Posts
Full disclosure starts with the “independent” researchers who aren’t. Shame.
Even if they self-identified as instructors, the data doesn’t support their conclusions.
-mr. bill
Even if they self-identified as instructors, the data doesn’t support their conclusions.
-mr. bill
Last edited by mr_bill; 10-09-17 at 05:06 PM.
#31
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Memphis TN area
Posts: 7,391
Bikes: 2011 Felt Z85 (road/commuter), 2006 Marin Pine Mountain (utility/commuter E-bike), 1995 KHS Alite 1000 (gravel grinder)
Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 676 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 13 Times
in
13 Posts
#32
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Memphis TN area
Posts: 7,391
Bikes: 2011 Felt Z85 (road/commuter), 2006 Marin Pine Mountain (utility/commuter E-bike), 1995 KHS Alite 1000 (gravel grinder)
Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 676 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 13 Times
in
13 Posts
Perhaps I should conduct an independent study myself, and quantify passing car quantities and distance for a particular stretch of my afternoon commute. I could do the study for a long time, a year perhaps, and gather hundreds and hundreds of data points. And if my results were consistent with the findings of this study I linked here, would you STILL dispute it?
#33
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 4,530
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2112 Post(s)
Liked 663 Times
in
443 Posts
"...the data seem to indicate that bicyclist lateral position has a significant influence on motorist overtaking distance."
The plural of anecdote is not data. The "data" show no such thing, even if we ignore statistical significance.
Another retelling of their conclusion:
"...the fewest unsafe close passes occurred when the bicyclists were positioned between the center of the lane and the left tire track. The closest passes occurred while riding near the right tire track."
In fact, there was ONE unsafe close pass. Singular. It occurred when the cyclists rode 3 feet from the gutter pan, 4 feet from the curb.
Other than that, the "data" was collected in 2006, while the paper was completed three years later in 2009. This may or may not explain the reference to a non-existent traffic signal at Lakewood and Rose. It was apparently finally published on CyclingSavvy in 2015. I'm unable to find anywhere else where the paper was published.
-mr. bill
The plural of anecdote is not data. The "data" show no such thing, even if we ignore statistical significance.
Another retelling of their conclusion:
"...the fewest unsafe close passes occurred when the bicyclists were positioned between the center of the lane and the left tire track. The closest passes occurred while riding near the right tire track."
In fact, there was ONE unsafe close pass. Singular. It occurred when the cyclists rode 3 feet from the gutter pan, 4 feet from the curb.
Other than that, the "data" was collected in 2006, while the paper was completed three years later in 2009. This may or may not explain the reference to a non-existent traffic signal at Lakewood and Rose. It was apparently finally published on CyclingSavvy in 2015. I'm unable to find anywhere else where the paper was published.
-mr. bill
#34
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Memphis TN area
Posts: 7,391
Bikes: 2011 Felt Z85 (road/commuter), 2006 Marin Pine Mountain (utility/commuter E-bike), 1995 KHS Alite 1000 (gravel grinder)
Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 676 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 13 Times
in
13 Posts
You appear to be confused about the definitions of "data" and "anecdotes". Data is the collection of measurements or other observations. The researchers didn't just say things like "oh well this pass felt close but this one didn't". They used video devices to QUANTIFY passing occurrences and distances.
da·ta
ˈdadə,ˈdādə/
noun
noun: data
facts and statistics collected together for reference or analysis.
an·ec·dote
ˈanəkˌdōt/
noun
noun: anecdote; plural noun: anecdotes
a short and amusing or interesting story about a real incident or person.
Sure seems to me like the first one is true of the measurements and observations made by Mr. DeSousa and Mr. Gutierrez. Perhaps you should study the scientific method a little further before tossing aside facts and data as mere "anecdotes".
da·ta
ˈdadə,ˈdādə/
noun
noun: data
facts and statistics collected together for reference or analysis.
an·ec·dote
ˈanəkˌdōt/
noun
noun: anecdote; plural noun: anecdotes
a short and amusing or interesting story about a real incident or person.
Sure seems to me like the first one is true of the measurements and observations made by Mr. DeSousa and Mr. Gutierrez. Perhaps you should study the scientific method a little further before tossing aside facts and data as mere "anecdotes".
#35
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 4,530
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2112 Post(s)
Liked 663 Times
in
443 Posts
When all "data" is collected by two people on bicycles riding in a line along a 2/10 of a mile road segment, that is an anecdote.
"The two bicyclists waited at eastbound Ashworth in preparation for a right turn onto southbound Lakewood, a movement controlled by a stop sign."
In fact, the intersection is controlled by a traffic signal.
ps. The "data" has gone missing.
-mr. bill
"The two bicyclists waited at eastbound Ashworth in preparation for a right turn onto southbound Lakewood, a movement controlled by a stop sign."
In fact, the intersection is controlled by a traffic signal.
ps. The "data" has gone missing.
-mr. bill
#36
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Memphis TN area
Posts: 7,391
Bikes: 2011 Felt Z85 (road/commuter), 2006 Marin Pine Mountain (utility/commuter E-bike), 1995 KHS Alite 1000 (gravel grinder)
Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 676 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 13 Times
in
13 Posts
So 2 people are incapable of collecting data? At what point is a group of people considered viable for collecting data, according to mr bill? It's data because they REPEATED the same segment multiple times and collected at least 50 data points. Yes it was a short section, because that provided them the best place to repeat the same test over and over, removing as many variables as possible. That, my friend, is data collection.
It seems to me that you're stuck in a state of denialism. Presented with the data results of the testing, you continue to just blow it off as anecdotal.
It seems to me that you're stuck in a state of denialism. Presented with the data results of the testing, you continue to just blow it off as anecdotal.
Last edited by PatrickGSR94; 10-10-17 at 11:14 AM.
#37
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 4,530
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2112 Post(s)
Liked 663 Times
in
443 Posts
So 2 people are incapable of collecting data? At what point is a group of people considered viable for collecting data, according to mr bill? It's data because they REPEATED the same segment at least 50 times. Yes it was a short section, because that provided them the best place to repeat the same test over and over, removing as many variables as possible. That, my friend, is data collection.
It seems to me that you're stuck in a state of denialism.
It seems to me that you're stuck in a state of denialism.
We start with two "independent researchers” who publish on a website and fail to disclose their conflict of interest ties with that very website.
First, the test is not reproducible because of their flawed methodology section. There is no traffic signal at Lakewood and Rose and there is no stop sign at Ashworth and Lakewood.
They did not collect a statistically significant data set.
Further, out of fifty data points they collected one outlier data point and attempted to make meaning of it. Their conclusions do *NOT* match their measurements.
Finally, there's an obvious hole in the data right in the center of their whole data set, literally.
-mr. bill
Last edited by mr_bill; 10-11-17 at 05:33 AM.
#38
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Memphis TN area
Posts: 7,391
Bikes: 2011 Felt Z85 (road/commuter), 2006 Marin Pine Mountain (utility/commuter E-bike), 1995 KHS Alite 1000 (gravel grinder)
Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 676 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 13 Times
in
13 Posts
Alright, how about I conduct a similar test along a 1-mile section of multilane roadway on my afternoon commute (same time of day each time), over the course of an entire year. I estimate that I would ride the 1-mile stretch of road around 150 to 200 times in that year, and I would likely collect 3,000 to 4,000 data points.
Would that suit you as a valid study and data collection methodology?
Would that suit you as a valid study and data collection methodology?
#39
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 4,530
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2112 Post(s)
Liked 663 Times
in
443 Posts
You could do worse than the “independent researchers.” Or is it you couldn’t do worse?
Wow. Riding on a mutlilane strode where a person on a bicycle passes a car or gets passed by a car about once every 10 seconds during rush hour(s). Such a level of motor traffic is nearly unimaginable.
-mr. bill
Wow. Riding on a mutlilane strode where a person on a bicycle passes a car or gets passed by a car about once every 10 seconds during rush hour(s). Such a level of motor traffic is nearly unimaginable.
-mr. bill
Last edited by mr_bill; 10-10-17 at 05:21 PM.
#40
Been Around Awhile
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 29,959
Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked 1,528 Times
in
1,041 Posts
A person interested in similar "research" could always visit the Chainguard list at https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Chainguard/info to find a few more similar "independent researchers" who are figuratively joined at the hip with the author of Effective Cycling in the use of "research" methodology and data manipulation to reach predetermined preferred conclusions about this subject. The "independent researchers" in question have been posting and advocating such "researched" conclusions on that list for at least the last 17 years.
#41
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 4,530
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2112 Post(s)
Liked 663 Times
in
443 Posts
Just to make it clear, I believe in science.
If this paper is your best science, it’s junk....
-mr. bill
If this paper is your best science, it’s junk....
-mr. bill
Last edited by mr_bill; 10-10-17 at 06:15 PM.
#42
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Memphis TN area
Posts: 7,391
Bikes: 2011 Felt Z85 (road/commuter), 2006 Marin Pine Mountain (utility/commuter E-bike), 1995 KHS Alite 1000 (gravel grinder)
Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 676 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 13 Times
in
13 Posts
You could do worse than the “independent researchers.” Or is it you couldn’t do worse?
Wow. Riding on a mutlilane strode where a person on a bicycle passes a car or gets passed by a car about once every 10 seconds during rush hour(s). Such a level of motor traffic is nearly unimaginable.
-mr. bill
Wow. Riding on a mutlilane strode where a person on a bicycle passes a car or gets passed by a car about once every 10 seconds during rush hour(s). Such a level of motor traffic is nearly unimaginable.
-mr. bill
#43
Banned
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,341
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 959 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I don't need a study to learn how people react when I'm rude to them. I can see it.
Similarly, I don't need a study to learn how people driving cars react to my lane positioning. I can see that too.
So can you. So can anybody.
Just get a bike, a mirror and experiment with positioning. Everyone I know who has seriously experimented with lane positioning and a mirror to observe motorists' reactions makes the same discovery: motorists slow down or change lanes sooner and are far more likely to pass safely if you're positioned conspicuously in the lane than if you're riding at the road edge, in a bike lane or on a shoulder.
Similarly, I don't need a study to learn how people driving cars react to my lane positioning. I can see that too.
So can you. So can anybody.
Just get a bike, a mirror and experiment with positioning. Everyone I know who has seriously experimented with lane positioning and a mirror to observe motorists' reactions makes the same discovery: motorists slow down or change lanes sooner and are far more likely to pass safely if you're positioned conspicuously in the lane than if you're riding at the road edge, in a bike lane or on a shoulder.
#44
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 4,530
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2112 Post(s)
Liked 663 Times
in
443 Posts
Work In Progress.
Part Two - Boston/Brookline/Alston:
...
The "sharrows on steroids" - green - are fading:
And so are the "sharrows on steroids" - no green. But otherwise would love to see these spread. One note - Boston Drivers wait until the last seconds to change lanes, even on a quiet sunny Sunday morning:
-mr. bill
Part Two - Boston/Brookline/Alston:
...
The "sharrows on steroids" - green - are fading:
And so are the "sharrows on steroids" - no green. But otherwise would love to see these spread. One note - Boston Drivers wait until the last seconds to change lanes, even on a quiet sunny Sunday morning:
-mr. bill
ps. See this sign?
See this sign?
Boston drivers don't.
-mr. bill
Last edited by mr_bill; 10-11-17 at 01:05 PM.
#45
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Memphis TN area
Posts: 7,391
Bikes: 2011 Felt Z85 (road/commuter), 2006 Marin Pine Mountain (utility/commuter E-bike), 1995 KHS Alite 1000 (gravel grinder)
Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 676 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 13 Times
in
13 Posts
Those signs are non-standard and hard to read at a glance. Why don't they just put up the standard BMUFL signs with "Change Lanes To Pass" underneath?
#46
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Memphis TN area
Posts: 7,391
Bikes: 2011 Felt Z85 (road/commuter), 2006 Marin Pine Mountain (utility/commuter E-bike), 1995 KHS Alite 1000 (gravel grinder)
Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 676 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 13 Times
in
13 Posts
So I did my first test on that section of road on my commute this afternoon. I don't like my current camera placement and need to work on that. The shape of my handlebars prevents the camera from pointing straight ahead. But in that 1 mile stretch, which I covered in 3.5 minutes while riding centered in the right lane, 12 cars passed me in the left thru lane. 10 of those cars passed me in the first 1/2 mile. The other 2 passed near the end of the 1-mile section. There was a long stretch where no cars passed (large gap between traffic platoons).
Last edited by PatrickGSR94; 10-11-17 at 10:56 PM.
#48
What happened?
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Around here somewhere
Posts: 7,927
Bikes: 3 Rollfasts, 3 Schwinns, a Shelby and a Higgins Flightliner in a pear tree!
Mentioned: 57 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1835 Post(s)
Liked 292 Times
in
255 Posts
You can no longer say "everyone you know" agrees with you.
ps. See this sign?
See this sign?
Boston drivers don't.
-mr. bill
ps. See this sign?
See this sign?
Boston drivers don't.
-mr. bill
Our bike lanes are everything between yours and the parking lane and maybe a smidge.
__________________
I don't know nothing, and I memorized it in school and got this here paper I'm proud of to show it.
#49
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 4,530
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2112 Post(s)
Liked 663 Times
in
443 Posts
If they worked, why do you think there are five of them? On a quarter mile long stretch of road.
Anyhow, the "sharrows on steroids" are actually a "bicycle priority lane." Part of an experiment to see if they would work better than standard sharrows. Including to see if a different graphic sign would work better. (The sign is actually intentionally non-standard, and was given explicit waiver.) They lanes actually do work better, the signs no so much, but that doesn't mean that Boston drivers don't *STILL* close pass and lane split, no matter where in the lane you ride, EVEN WITH THE VISUAL HINT THAT PEOPLE ON BIKES BELONG IN THE MIDDLE OF THE LANE. Which is why if you actually ride on that street you'll find quite a few people on bicycles who are *still* bullied into the door zone.
ps. The *ONLY* way to keep the box unblocked is to station a police detail there. But even then.... And since there are no police, no street markings, and no signs at the next two intersections, those are self-corked for rush hour(s), and sometimes just at random times during the day, and sometimes on weekends.
-mr. bill
Last edited by mr_bill; 10-12-17 at 06:39 AM.
#50
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Posts: 4,810
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1591 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1,017 Times
in
571 Posts
I'm not sure what your point is. Drivers ignore or pay scant attention to a lot of signs and traffic control measures, but we don't therefore abandon all attempts to control traffic.