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Old 10-09-17, 12:00 AM   #1
Hapsmo911
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Driver intentionally hits 4 cyclists @Jens grand fondo

The world has gone mad. I hope this wont be another light sentence..

Four Marin bicyclists injured when hit by vehicle; driver flees

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Old 10-09-17, 05:12 AM   #2
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Cyclists recall hit-and-run crash that injured 4 south of Petaluma | The Press Democrat -
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Old 10-09-17, 05:44 AM   #3
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Glad they were able to identify and arrest the driver, and that they got footage from a motorcycle helmet was great. That's exactly why I wear on. It's not going to keep me from any incident but may help identify drivers and vehicles after the fact if it is a hit and run situation.
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Old 10-09-17, 07:06 AM   #4
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Old 10-09-17, 07:10 AM   #5
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Glad they were able to identify and arrest the driver, and that they got footage from a motorcycle helmet was great. That's exactly why I wear on. It's not going to keep me from any incident but may help identify drivers and vehicles after the fact if it is a hit and run situation.
Me too. And there are a lot of hit and runs these days, both bikes and peds. Without any kind of visual proof, the cops will probably believe and go on it was the cyclists fault as usual letting a killer go free.

I hope all four Marin injured sues and makes this killer pay the rest of his life in settlements.
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Old 10-09-17, 07:34 AM   #6
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It's getting much easier for me to justify the cost of cameras like the Fly6/12. It's hard to put a price on piece of mind that someone could do something like this and not get away with it.
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Old 10-09-17, 07:44 AM   #7
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It's getting much easier for me to justify the cost of cameras like the Fly6/12. It's hard to put a price on piece of mind that someone could do something like this and not get away with it.
And having a camera visible might make a errant driver think twice before doing something rash.
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Old 10-09-17, 08:42 AM   #8
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...they got footage from a motorcycle helmet was great. That's exactly why I wear one. It's not going to keep me from any incident...
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Me too. And there are a lot of hit and runs these days...
Nearly every day you guys reinforce my decision to quit recreational cycling. I am SO much happier now without all the worry and drama. Every now and then I get the urge to go out for a long ride, so I come here first and get over it. You folks probably, LITERALLY, are saving my life.
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Old 10-09-17, 09:27 AM   #9
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Nearly every day you guys reinforce my decision to quit recreational cycling. I am SO much happier now without all the worry and drama. Every now and then I get the urge to go out for a long ride, so I come here first and get over it. You folks probably, LITERALLY, are saving my life.
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Your profile pic looks very safe.
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Old 10-09-17, 09:45 AM   #10
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Nearly every day you guys reinforce my decision to quit recreational cycling. I am SO much happier now without all the worry and drama. Every now and then I get the urge to go out for a long ride, so I come here first and get over it. You folks probably, LITERALLY, are saving my life.
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Well, good for you!
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Old 10-09-17, 10:13 AM   #11
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Your profile pic looks very safe.
Ancient history. Fond memories.
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Old 10-09-17, 10:19 AM   #12
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What I wonder is were not four witnesses enough to bring this guy to justice? How is it that one motorist can say "I didn't do that" when there are four cyclists saying "he did that."

Sure, I see the advantage of the various helmet cams, but really, I wonder about the word of 4 verses 1... shouldn't that be enough for police to act?
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Old 10-09-17, 10:39 AM   #13
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What I wonder is were not four witnesses enough to bring this guy to justice? How is it that one motorist can say "I didn't do that" when there are four cyclists saying "he did that."

Sure, I see the advantage of the various helmet cams, but really, I wonder about the word of 4 verses 1... shouldn't that be enough for police to act?
The camera is what got the details the police used to find the guy. Maybe there was a legible license plate. None of those cyclists would be able to say anything more than it was a blue pickup truck, maybe a a model so-and-so, year roughly 20xx. The California database would show 2,386 pickups with that description. (Made up number.) And if that video shows an askew bumper or even just a dent for some other incident, the police now have hard evidence that this particular truck was the one and a prosecutor has a solid case. (The police really don't like bringing people in, only to see them walk with "you cannot prove it was me".)

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Old 10-09-17, 10:51 AM   #14
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The camera is what got the details the police used to find the guy. Maybe there was a legible license plate. None of those cyclists would be able to say anything more than it was a blue pickup truck, maybe a a model so-and-so, year roughly 20xx. The California database would show 2,386 pickups with that description. (Made up number.) And if that video shows an askew bumper or even just a dent for some other incident, the police now have hard evidence that this particular truck was the one and a prosecutor has a solid case. (The police really don't like bringing people in, only to see them walk with "you cannot prove it was me".)

Ben
I understand the advantage of the camera... clearly shown here.

I just question whether 4 cyclists as witnesses would be enough to bring this case to justice.

Think of the Doctor involved in the Mandeville Canyon Road incident in 2008. The cyclists had a GPS to prove their case... but was not the testimony of 2 cyclists enough?

And then we have the situation of the Kalamazoo cyclists killed by a drugged driver (has not gone to court yet)... will the testimony of the survivors be enough?

Also pending is the Natchez Trace Parkway case, caught with a gopro... would there be a case without the camera... in spite of the two cycling witnesses?

Sure in a 1:1 situation there is that he said/she said issue... but any time there are more witness/victims, is there any reason to not to go with their word?
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Old 10-09-17, 11:57 AM   #15
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I understand the advantage of the camera... clearly shown here.

I just question whether 4 cyclists as witnesses would be enough to bring this case to justice.
One person on a bicycle "could not remember anything," according to Jim Elias, the executive director who arrived shortly after the incident. One was taken by helicopter to the hospital. The three others were taken by ambulance. How much did *any* of them see of the driver who intentionally hit them FROM BEHIND?

Do you really believe that *any* of those witnesses could give a description of the vehicle as anything other than a "dark pickup truck," let alone a slightly lifted midnight blue, circa 2007 Dodge Ram crew cab with black rims that protrude past the bodywork and missing a front license plate? How about a description of the driver?

-mr. bill

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Old 10-09-17, 12:03 PM   #16
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Ah, sounds like a great person. 21 years old and potentially hitting four cyclists on purpose and fleeing the scene. Oh jeez.
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Old 10-09-17, 12:32 PM   #17
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One person on a bicycle "could not remember anything," according to Jim Elias, the executive director who arrived shortly after the incident. One was taken by helicopter to the hospital. The three others were taken by ambulance. How much did *any* of them see of the driver who intentionally hit them FROM BEHIND?

Do you really believe that *any* of those witnesses could give a description of the vehicle as anything other than a "dark pickup truck," let alone a slightly lifted midnight blue, circa 2007 Dodge Ram crew cab with black rims that protrude past the bodywork and missing a front license plate? How about a description of the driver?

-mr. bill
No.

And again I acknowledge the camera as "the ultimate witness..."

But to a more open ended question... without cameras, do groups of cyclists still fall below the single driver as credible witnesses? This is probably best as a new thread...

I am just wondering... we've seen a number of situations here that were "resolved" thanks to video... perhaps the most classic was that of the cyclist accused of running a light, then being hit by a motorist. The cyclist held that the light was in his favor... the PD held that the cyclist was wrong, in spite of the video they had... the cyclist was ultimately able to retrieve the video and prove that the PD were not only wrong but lied.

https://ggwash.org/view/31600/it-mus...ou-are-a-biker

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In the ambulance, Carlos Carter, a DC police officer, asked me what happened, and I told him.

Officer Carter entered the room. He asked me to sign a ticket for running a red light. I asked him to take a look at footage since I was certain I hadn’t. He wasn’t interested and asked me to sign the ticket and admit fault. I didn’t. He left.

I returned to the Third District police station, where a supervisor told me that only the officer who wrote the report and the ticket could change it. He asked me to tell my story again.
"Wait, you mean, you were biking and you want a ticket canceled?” he said, incredulous. “We all know how bikers behave. It must have been your fault. C’mon. You are a biker.”

Without the video, it would’ve been nearly impossible to prove that I did everything right.

I learned that if you get hit by someone while bicycling, check for cameras. Without them, you’ll have to fight against the assumption that you were operating in an unsafe way, no matter what the driver did.
Sure in the case of the OP... the testimony of the cyclists would not be enough... they were clearly disabled by the collision... but I just wonder, how often are cyclists pleas of innocence ignored... Because "the man" does not consider them credible witnesses against a driver.

I will start a new thread.
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Old 10-09-17, 12:35 PM   #18
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One person on a bicycle "could not remember anything," according to Jim Elias, the executive director who arrived shortly after the incident. One was taken by helicopter to the hospital. The three others were taken by ambulance. How much did *any* of them see of the driver who intentionally hit them FROM BEHIND?

Do you really believe that *any* of those witnesses could give a description of the vehicle as anything other than a "dark pickup truck," let alone a slightly lifted midnight blue, circa 2007 Dodge Ram crew cab with black rims that protrude past the bodywork and missing a front license plate? How about a description of the driver?
Agreed. We had a hit-and-run crash on one of our club rides awhile back. Two riders were a little ahead of the rest of the group when one of them was hit from behind by an SUV that came over the fog line. But the only description anyone could give was that it was a silverish SUV. We were later able to determine the make/model/year from the mirror that was left behind but the driver was never identified. The incident led to several camera sales in our group. Fortunately the rider made a full recovery but it was a lengthy process due to the severity of his injuries.
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Think of the Doctor involved in the Mandeville Canyon Road incident in 2008. The cyclists had a GPS to prove their case... but was not the testimony of 2 cyclists enough?

And then we have the situation of the Kalamazoo cyclists killed by a drugged driver (has not gone to court yet)... will the testimony of the survivors be enough?

Also pending is the Natchez Trace Parkway case, caught with a gopro... would there be a case without the camera... in spite of the two cycling witnesses?

Sure in a 1:1 situation there is that he said/she said issue... but any time there are more witness/victims, is there any reason to not to go with their word?
I doubt that the testimony of multiple cyclists riding together would have been sufficient in any of these cases. The doctor in Mandeville Cyn. was convicted mainly on the basis of his own statements at the time as well as the pattern shown by previous independent reports. The Kalamazoo case also has multiple independent witnesses besides the cyclists as well as toxicology and other physical evidence.

Testimony by multiple cyclists riding together is a little better than just a single witness, but is likely to be viewed by at least some jurors as not really independent - i.e. they're riding together so they might be friends backing each other up. If it's just their word vs. the driver's without any clear physical evidence then the 'beyond reasonable doubt' bar is a hard one to overcome. Without the video I doubt the Natchez Trace case would have even merited much of an investigation.
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Old 10-09-17, 12:40 PM   #19
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Do you really believe that *any* of those witnesses could give a description of the vehicle as anything other than a "dark pickup truck," let alone a slightly lifted midnight blue, circa 2007 Dodge Ram crew cab with black rims that protrude past the bodywork and missing a front license plate? How about a description of the driver?
Why not? One of our BF comrades was even able to provide a psychological profile, see https://www.bikeforums.net/19917708-post8.html
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Old 10-09-17, 12:46 PM   #20
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Agreed. We had a hit-and-run crash on one of our club rides awhile back. Two riders were a little ahead of the rest of the group when one of them was hit from behind by an SUV that came over the fog line. But the only description anyone could give was that it was a silverish SUV. We were later able to determine the make/model/year from the mirror that was left behind but the driver was never identified. The incident led to several camera sales in our group. Fortunately the rider made a full recovery but it was a lengthy process due to the severity of his injuries.

I doubt that the testimony of multiple cyclists riding together would have been sufficient in any of these cases. The doctor in Mandeville Cyn. was convicted mainly on the basis of his own statements at the time as well as the pattern shown by previous independent reports. The Kalamazoo case also has multiple independent witnesses besides the cyclists as well as toxicology and other physical evidence.

Testimony by multiple cyclists riding together is a little better than just a single witness, but is likely to be viewed by at least some jurors as not really independent - i.e. they're riding together so they might be friends backing each other up. If it's just their word vs. the driver's without any clear physical evidence then the 'beyond reasonable doubt' bar is a hard one to overcome. Without the video I doubt the Natchez Trace case would have even merited much of an investigation.
I borrowed some of your response... and moved the thread to here...
https://www.bikeforums.net/advocacy-...-motorist.html
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Old 10-09-17, 04:53 PM   #21
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Here's another article on catching the driver.
GoPro video helps California police catch driver who injured four | VeloNews.com
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Old 10-09-17, 05:09 PM   #22
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Why not? One of our BF comrades was even able to provide a psychological profile, see https://www.bikeforums.net/19917708-post8.html
Then reply to them. Buh-bye!

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Old 10-10-17, 07:19 AM   #23
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RE: some of the talk about cyclist testimony not being enough to convict a driver. There maybe some other forensic evidence too. Damage to the vehicle. Paint or blood from the cyclist left behind on the vehicle. Also cops can be pretty good at interrogating people and getting them to incriminate themselves once they start lying and contradicting their stories.
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Old 10-10-17, 08:30 AM   #24
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If it is proven to be intentional, I hope something in the state laws allows the drivers license to be revoked for life, along with actually serving a hefty prison sentence.

While I am not as up on imprisonment as some, I have a hard time understanding why we can't create better legislation to take licenses and highly incentivise not allowing unlicensed drivers access to vehicles.
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Old 10-10-17, 09:51 AM   #25
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so... a guy is accused if attempting to run four people down with his vehicle (evidence: 4 injured people, video of the incident) and is released on $50,000 bail (paying only $5,000, of course.) And remember, this is a guy who, apparently, only a week or two ago was issued a DUI after he was accused of attempting to run over a woman in a parking lot and, failing to strike her, struck a CVS drug store instead (using this very same blue truck in the incident!)

So, to recap, an unhinged, dangerous-to-himself-and-society individual is on a multi-week murderous rampage and he's just going to be released to continue it?
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