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High speed right hook - what could we have done differently?
Rode a loop around Seneca Lake in central NY with two other guys yesterday.
As we were coming south on Rt 14 (west side of the lake) we approached this turnoff onto Spur road (link below) and were right hooked by an older lady at about 40-45 mph. We were going about 20-22 at the time, slight downgrade. https://www.google.com/maps/@42.6860.../data=!3m1!1e3 I was on the wheel of the lead guy who had to hit his brakes hard. His rear wheel left the ground for a bit and he was within a foot of the car as it flew in front of us, but he managed to stay up. I hit the brakes and was just a bit to his side so was a few feet back. The third guy was a bit off of us playing catchup so was able to just pass by relatively safely. The lead guy had extended his left arm out to the left just a couple moments before it happened - either to signal to us following that we were staying on 14, or to signal to traffic. I followed suit and extended my arm briefly as well. This is a 55 mph road and traffic was relatively heavy at about 2 in the afternoon on a Friday. What are your thoughts on what we could have done differently? I know some will say take the lane, but given the speed and amount of traffic, and a very rideable shoulder otherwise, that would have been difficult. |
Sometimes I can spot this before it happens in my rear view mirror, not usually though.
If this was done out of malicious intent by the motorist, lane position would not have made any difference. There isn't much anyone can do if a motorist rolls up at more than double your speed and cuts it close or worse. I run video cameras front and rear, with the hope of possibly learning from any mistakes I might have made after an incident occurred. A few times I have noticed that someone will see the camera and change their behavior. Also, I tend to avoid Friday afternoon traffic, if possible. |
On roads like that with a lane that merges away in such a slight fashion, I'm checking my mirror well in advance (and frequently) so I can choose the best time to cross the intersection point. Simple hand signals (on their own) are not sufficient with cars moving at such high speeds.
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You experienced one of the pitfalls of a group ride. I love group rides mind you, but they make me nervous when I get into traffic. From a group ride standpoint, you need to have a chat before the ride to talk about how you are going to deal with someone approaching from the rear in a situation like that. When I ride alone, I assume they will turn and slow in preparation. You should also have a plan for what you will do when a potential left turner is oncoming. Group rides can get ugly when you have to take emergency evasive action. We get in group rides, put our heads down and grind. We don't like to slow. I have found when I ride alone I have much better situational awareness.
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That's a tough one. But, perhaps not impossible. While your group ride should have been more visible than an individual, it likely made the reactions worse as you nearly ran over each other.
Prevention: Treat this like you're changing lanes or making a left hand turn. Look back to watch for traffic. Signal a left turn for changing lanes. Even slow down slightly so that you can take a partial radius before making the turn if necessary. Reaction to the event:I've kind of made up my own signal, hopefully cars can get the gist of the idea. I'll point down at about a 45° angle to indicate (in my mind) that I'm moving left, but not planning to take the whole lane, or actually turning left (also do that around parked cars). Rather than slamming on the brake, I'd have taken a hard right hand turn and stayed with the car around the corner (and braked some). You could have even taken the full turn-off, and returned with the northbound traffic to get back on 14. I'm usually riding alone, so a dynamic course change should be easy enough, but for a group ride, it might also have been safer than doing an emergency stop. |
Originally Posted by CliffordK
(Post 19943075)
Reaction to the event:
Rather than slamming on the brake, I'd have taken a hard right hand turn and stayed with the car around the corner (and braked some). You could have even taken the full turn-off, and returned with the northbound traffic to get back on 14. |
My take: this was a near miss, not a right hook. Yes, I am splitting hairs to make a point. Yes, I agree, the lead rider also turning right would have made an already bad situation worse. Maybe catastrophic. If unweighting the rear end, but otherwise staying upright, and out from under the chassis of the offending driver was the worst that happened, I'd say y'all's got off light. Lesson learned. And (IMO) the lesson is, treat ALL cars that overtake on the left as possible right hook contenders. ALL. I do not consider myself out of danger until I have actually entered the intersection AHEAD of parallel traffic on my left. If they beat me to the corner, even by inches, I am already on the brakes. Maybe they will turn, maybe they will not, I am not trying for PB's when I am out on public roads! That was your mistake. You (your lead rider) was loath to sacrifice any forward momentum on the off chance that the driver would not turn right and he lost the gamble.
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Originally Posted by Leisesturm
(Post 19943654)
My take: this was a near miss, not a right hook.
See on the map I linked where the white line starts to curve with the turn to the right? We were already past that and off the line, sort of partway into the right turn lane, before we became aware that the car was right there. Maybe we weren't too far into that lane, but we were in it...if you look close you can see how far back it starts to veer off. We were not hammering. In fact we were sort of just cruising along waiting for rider 3 - who was struggling on hills but riding a tri-bike so catching up on flats / downgrades - to catch up. Don't get me wrong - I'm considering all the points being made and will take them to heart. I didn't really see the nature of the turn off too early since I was on the wheel of the lead rider. In the future I think all of us will be more wary of that kind of turn off, especially during high-traffic time. The shores of Seneca Lake - as well as the other finger lakes - are littered with wineries, breweries, and even a couple distilleries. Might not make for the safest riding, but besides that one woman drivers seemed to be very aware and courteous of us yesterday. |
My guess is that the woman anticipated you would stay in the shoulder, going the same direction as her. If I read your account correctly, it sounds like you meant to stay on 14 (not head onto Spur Road) by crossing the off-ramp in front of her. She may not have anticipated this.
What I have found to work well in those situations is to move slightly out of the shoulder WELL in advance of the off-ramp, and watch for a gap. It is really hard for a driver to anticipate which way you will go, and few will slow down to bicycle speed behind you to find out. Those gaps in traffic are critical. And if one doesn't appear, stay in the shoulder until you are just in the off-ramp (where it starts to split off the highway), then stop and wait to cross at a 90-degree angle to the roadway (i.e., the shortest distance possible to cross the off-ramp). |
Originally Posted by billyymc
(Post 19942999)
What are your thoughts on what we could have done differently?
. . . |
Originally Posted by JoeyBike
(Post 19947635)
Do? Consider not playing in traffic?? Just a thought. It worked for me 100%. Or just consider right hooks the price of admission..
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Originally Posted by CliffordK
(Post 19943075)
I've kind of made up my own signal, hopefully cars can get the gist of the idea. I'll point down at about a 45° angle to indicate (in my mind) that I'm moving left, but not planning to take the whole lane, or actually turning left (also do that around parked cars).
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Originally Posted by dh024
(Post 19943939)
My guess is that the woman anticipated you would stay in the shoulder, going the same direction as her. If I read your account correctly, it sounds like you meant to stay on 14 (not head onto Spur Road) by crossing the off-ramp in front of her. She may not have anticipated this.
What I have found to work well in those situations is to move slightly out of the shoulder WELL in advance of the off-ramp, and watch for a gap. It is really hard for a driver to anticipate which way you will go, and few will slow down to bicycle speed behind you to find out. Those gaps in traffic are critical. And if one doesn't appear, stay in the shoulder until you are just in the off-ramp (where it starts to split off the highway), then stop and wait to cross at a 90-degree angle to the roadway (i.e., the shortest distance possible to cross the off-ramp). A helmet or eyeglass mirror makes looking for gaps a lot easier. (And it's much easier to keep track of the other group riders.) The front rider would need to consider how to handle this intersection pretty far in advance. I can see how that might not be obvious if the area was unfamiliar. I'd stop and wait if the merge was at all sketchy. |
Since you noted it was an older woman, and my experience has been that is one demographic that, if anything, seem to be overly cautious around cyclists... I'm gonna go with she thought you were going in the same direction, merging onto the spur road.
Or else, she never saw you at all. Regardless, as others have said, that type of intersection is one I would be very, very careful assuming any car knows you plan to go straight across. I have ONE route I ride that I cross an on-ramp entrance to a 4 lane highway. I always watch what is coming up behind me. Thankfully, it is a very light traffic area. |
Originally Posted by rm -rf
(Post 19947986)
Yes, merge into the middle of the lane, or stop and cross over. Just like when passing a freeway on-ramp.
A helmet or eyeglass mirror makes looking for gaps a lot easier. (And it's much easier to keep track of the other group riders.) The front rider would need to consider how to handle this intersection pretty far in advance. I can see how that might not be obvious if the area was unfamiliar. I'd stop and wait if the merge was at all sketchy. By staying on the shoulder it is not unreasonable for drivers to assume you're taking the right leg. If you're not taking the right leg you need to be absolutely clear you're continuing on the highway across the mouth of the right leg. The best way to be clear about this: 200 feet before "Y" look back. Let any traffic there pass, then signal and take the lane. It's tricky because you want to accommodate traffic taking either leg, but taking the lane not only grabs their attention, it requires them to slow down to your speed. If you're not comfortable with that then you have to at least clearly signal your intent to remain on the main road, because, again, from your roadway position your intent is not obvious. The lead guy doing some last second vague signal does not cut it. All three of you should be clearly signaling at least 100 feet prior to the diverge, ideally 200 feet, and looking back to see what's going on (as others have noted a mirror is very helpful for this). Being surprised by the car suggests you're not really paying attention to traffic that is highly relevant to you. You need to be not only paying attention to it, but also communicating with them! |
Originally Posted by Ninety5rpm
(Post 19948180)
... The best way to be clear about this: 200 feet before "Y" look back. Let any traffic there pass, then signal and take the lane. It's tricky because you want to accommodate traffic taking either leg, but taking the lane not only grabs their attention, it requires them to slow down to your speed.
I would also suggest that when traffic volume is significant, the best approach is almost always to stop and cross at the 'mouth' of the off-ramp/diverging lane. Harder to do as a group, I know, but the length of time it takes a group to cross the gap without stopping is also working against you. |
Originally Posted by billyymc
(Post 19943168)
The speed at which this unfolded prevented that kind of turn off. The driver appeared to either do this on purpose or made a last minute decision to turn off. Either way she was next to us and then just sped up a bit and whipped a right turn without warning....she didn't just veer from a position in front where we could react in that way. She was well past where a driver would normally move over to make that turn off.
However, that does look like a tricky intersection, and in a group, you're following so close it's easy to bump. Plus everyone has his own idea as to how to avoid crashing as the event unfolds, so it's pretty chaotic. I just have a hard time imagining why the lead guy had to brake so suddenly, but I wasn't there (fortunately). Glad no one was hurt. |
Originally Posted by Colnago Mixte
(Post 19948250)
It's pretty rare that a car does something so suddenly that I need to lock up my brakes.
Originally Posted by Colnago Mixte
(Post 19948250)
If I ever need to lock up my brakes in response to something a car does, it's tantamount to a serious misjudgment on my part of the situation as it unfolded, or just generally not paying attention. It takes a car a pretty long time to maneuver most of the time, at least at relatively low speeds.
I do think there was misjudgement on our part in that we didn't adequately recognize the situation where someone could overtake us and turn in front of us at that speed, because I don't think we realized the nature of the turnoff until we were almost in it. The driver made a serious aggressive error, and we didn't see the potential for it. |
Was her turn at signal at least on? I guess there wasn't a lot you could do, since the incident happened so fast. Other than not riding in a group.
Reminds me of the situation when you're riding along, and someone traveling in the opposite direction suddenly decides to pass, and so they gun the engine, move into your lane, and start barreling straight at you. Your fate is entirely in that idiot's hands, and there's not much you can do short of swerving off the road into the dirt. Might makes right in these kinds of situations, and it can be pretty humbling. :( |
It's impossible to fairly analyze a situation like this without being there.
However, given the gentle sweeping curve there, it's possible that you would have been OK if your friend hadn't reached at all. The car was moving faster than you, as evidenced by the fact that passed, and shouldn't have need to slow for the turn, so even if it only cleared by inches, the gap would have been opening, not closing. Otherwise, knowing I had a pace line behind me, I would have made the turn with the car, rather than braking hard. For the record, I have sent bias against pace line riding on open roads. It's fine on closed courses, and even OK on long stretches free of intersections, but there are too many surprises otherwise. So maybe the right answer is to increase separation approaching intersections, and tighten back afterward. BTW sometimes there is no solution that would avoid a crash, other than not being there at the time. |
Originally Posted by dh024
(Post 19948203)
I don't necessarily disagree, but I will add that you only want to do this if there is a big gap in traffic, and the volume is relatively light. It can be dangerous to 'take the lane' when the speed differential between you and moving traffic is greater than 20 or 30 mph. The problem is that some drivers change lanes at the very last second, and if there are cars behind them, they may not have sufficient time to react to a cyclist in their path.
I would also suggest that when traffic volume is significant, the best approach is almost always to stop and cross at the 'mouth' of the off-ramp/diverging lane. Harder to do as a group, I know, but the length of time it takes a group to cross the gap without stopping is also working against you. About 200 feet before the intersection, while still on the shoulder, stick out your left arm and look back. Someone will slow down to let you in. If your arm signal is assertive it should be the first or second car. Once they do slow, you move into the lane and they are "running interference" for you behind you. After you pass the diverge point, move back to the shoulder to allow traffic to pass. I haven't had to stop to allow traffic to pass as you describe since I learned to reliably negotiate for right of way more than 15 years ago. |
Originally Posted by billyymc
(Post 19949011)
I agree. In this case though this happened so suddenly. In most of the right hooks I've experienced the car is slightly ahead of me and I can see it slow and I know what's going to happen. In this instance she never got into my forward field of view until she was already in the turn across our path...she literally just whipped a high speed veer and almost cut into us, and even went slightly off the road in the process. We were partially into the turn area - which due to the off-ramp nature of the turn was quite long. As soon as I became aware of the car in my peripheral vision she was turning in front of us - or at least that's what I remember feeling.
My guess is she whipped her turn in front of us at about 40-45mph, and had probably approached us from behind at 55-60 mph (the normal speed for the road we were on). If that turn has been a 90 degree turn it couldn't have unfolded at the speed that it did. I do think there was misjudgement on our part in that we didn't adequately recognize the situation where someone could overtake us and turn in front of us at that speed, because I don't think we realized the nature of the turnoff until we were almost in it. The driver made a serious aggressive error, and we didn't see the potential for it. |
Originally Posted by FBinNY
(Post 19949411)
It's impossible to fairly analyze a situation like this without being there.
However, given the gentle sweeping curve there, it's possible that you would have been OK if your friend hadn't reached at all.
Originally Posted by FBinNY
(Post 19949411)
So maybe the right answer is to increase separation approaching intersections, and tighten back afterward.
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Originally Posted by Ninety5rpm
(Post 19949433)
As a bare minimum you have to look back and assess potential right hook situations as you approach each place where right turns may be made. In the Google street view it looks like a pretty standard diverge off the roadway. What was it about the nature of the turnoff that you didn't realize until you were almost on it? Sounds like you were just not paying attention, or you just don't have good safety practices ingrained in your habits. I suggest you take a CyclingSavvy class.
The road at that spot was banked slightly left, and the turnoff was obscured a bit by that as well I think - although from overhead that's not obvious. I do appreciate all the feedback. I wish I had this on camera so I could see it better instead of relying on my perception and recollection of the event which happened quickly. One last thought - relating to what FB said and also relating to 95's comment about safety habits - is that if I was not so close on the wheel of the lead rider I most likely would have checked my mirror more frequently. Being on his wheel took some of the attention I'd normally devote to situational awareness. That might be the best lesson for me in this personally. |
Originally Posted by Ninety5rpm
(Post 19949418)
When volume is high and traffic speed is high, you have to negotitate for right of way to obtain it safely.
About 200 feet before the intersection, while still on the shoulder, stick out your left arm and look back. Someone will slow down to let you in. If your arm signal is assertive it should be the first or second car. Once they do slow, you move into the lane and they are "running interference" for you behind you. After you pass the diverge point, move back to the shoulder to allow traffic to pass. I haven't had to stop to allow traffic to pass as you describe since I learned to reliably negotiate for right of way more than 15 years ago. |
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