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Old 01-12-18, 04:31 PM   #76
Ninety5rpm
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It's illegal for cyclists too.
Certainly illegal for solo cyclists or the front of a group to enter on red. But the illegality of the latter part of a peloton running a red light is not as clear. However, that that behavior is inconsequential is crystal clear. That is, whenever it happens, there are no consequences, as far as I know (and I've been doing it for 40 years).


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What law allows you to run into things?
Laws don't allow anything; they only disallow. If it's not disallowed by law, then it's allowed.

My question stands: What law requires you to not put yourself in a position where you can't stop?

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You don't think there's some general "in control of your vehicle" or "careless driving" law that would apply?
No, I don't. If careless or reckless driving (or similar) applied to drafting cyclists, then they would be cited accordingly. But they're not. And this is not like speeding - even though countless speeders get away with it every day, thousands are cited. But no cyclists are cited for reckless driving simply for riding in a peloton where they are unable to safely unilaterally decide to stop.

The fact is, the very common practices of drafting and cyclists mid-peloton not stopping for reds are not problematic. They don't cause crashes with others, and they don't cause law enforcement to issue citations.

It's time to ask: why do YOU have such a big problem with these practices?
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Old 01-12-18, 05:59 PM   #77
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Certainly illegal for solo cyclists or the front of a group to enter on red. But the illegality of the latter part of a peloton running a red light is not as clear.
No.

Legally, each rider has the same duties and rights as a driver of a vehicle. It doesn't magically become legal because you are following another vehicle.

It's illegal. Very clearly.

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It's time to ask: why do YOU have such a big problem with these practices?
I have a problem with your magical thinking.

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Old 01-12-18, 06:16 PM   #78
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No.

Legally, each rider has the same duties and rights as a driver of a vehicle. It doesn't magically become legal because you are following another vehicle.

It's illegal. Very clearly.
Given a literal interpretation of the law, sure. But that's not how the law always works. A literal interpretation must be balanced against the particulars of the situation, and safety considerations are paramount. How such a case would be interpreted in a higher court is unknown. What is known is that running reds in this particular situation is so inconsequential that it doesn't cause crashes and it doesn't end up in court. So, who cares? Oh, right. You do.
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Old 01-12-18, 06:26 PM   #79
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It's really just about attitude. If people would simply accept a fast/tight group of cyclists as a unit, like a long truck or trolley, then they wouldn't be bothered by having to wait a few extra seconds for them to go by.
They do. I don't know what you guys are arguing about. Seems like a complete non-issue.
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Old 01-12-18, 06:28 PM   #80
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Given a literal interpretation of the law, sure. But that's not how the law always works. A literal interpretation must be balanced against the particulars of the situation, and safety considerations are paramount. How such a case would be interpreted in a higher court is unknown.
More magical thinking.

So, it's illegal.

Cyclists get tickets all the time going through red lights.

The illegality of that is well-established.

It would never get to a "higher court".

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..., and they don't cause law enforcement to issue citations.
It may be rare, but it happens.

https://www.almanacnews.com/news/201...ing-stop-sign-

Last edited by njkayaker; 01-12-18 at 06:48 PM.
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Old 01-12-18, 06:57 PM   #81
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It's really just about attitude. If people would simply accept a fast/tight group of cyclists as a unit, like a long truck or trolley, then they wouldn't be bothered by having to wait a few extra seconds for them to go by. In fact, I think most people are like that anyway. The aholes who get all bent out of shape by having to wait those few seconds are relatively rare. Many people nod their heads or wave back when we wave to them.

When I'm in my car and I have to wait a few seconds for some group of cyclists to go by, it's a non-event. But if some ahole has to wait, OMG, it's a travesty of justice!
They do. I don't know what you guys are arguing about. Seems like a complete non-issue.
I know. When I said "people" I meant njkayaker and the occasional impatient driver, but, yeah, they're pretty rare.
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Old 01-12-18, 07:00 PM   #82
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In
More magical thinking.

So, it's illegal.

Cyclists get tickets all the time going through red lights.

The illegality of that is well-established.

It would never get to a "higher court".


It may be rare, but it happens.

https://www.almanacnews.com/news/201...ing-stop-sign-
When the whole group blows a stop sign, including those at the front, then the group taken as a unit is breaking the law. Yes, that kind of behavior does get LE attention, and rightfully so. But thanks for digging back to 2010 to find a non-example of what we're talking about. It makes me wonder if you even understand what we're talking about.

Last edited by Ninety5rpm; 01-12-18 at 07:07 PM. Reason: added last sentence
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Old 01-12-18, 07:59 PM   #83
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Imagine being a driver behind 40 riders single file, each one coming to a full and complete stop at the intersection. I'm guessing you'd see the value in having riders cross as a group. It's the most efficient method of moving traffic.
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Old 01-12-18, 08:10 PM   #84
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Imagine being a driver behind 40 riders single file, each one coming to a full and complete stop at the intersection. I'm guessing you'd see the value in having riders cross as a group. It's the most efficient method of moving traffic.
The few people who get upset by cycling groups behaving as single whole vehicular units don't seem to consider the alternatives.

We all know the law does not explicitly recognize groups as units. But many of us also understand how it's practical, but difficult to codify. The biggest problem is that the vehicle code makes a driver responsible. Who is the driver in a typical pack? It's often a fluid answer (and if it's not, it's not a very fast group, LOL).
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Old 01-12-18, 09:39 PM   #85
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Old 01-13-18, 10:32 AM   #86
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It makes me wonder if you even understand what we're talking about.
You don't know what you are talking about.

A big reason people are impatient with it is because they see it as illegal.

It took way too many posts for you to admit (grudgingly) that it was illegal (which it obviously is).

Your notion that a "higher court" will give it a pass is wildly unrealistic.

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The biggest problem is that the vehicle code makes a driver responsible. Who is the driver in a typical pack? It's often a fluid answer (and if it's not, it's not a very fast group, LOL).
This is dumb. You say one correct thing and then magically wish it away.

The responsible driver is the individual rider. Riding in a pack is a choice.

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Old 01-13-18, 10:43 AM   #87
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Imagine being a driver behind 40 riders single file, each one coming to a full and complete stop at the intersection.
??? The law doesn't require cyclists to do this.

The problem with crossing as a group is riders entering the intersection when it's illegal to do so.

If the group can't manage riding in a way that is legal, then the group is too big.

Or, you just have to deal with it as being illegal (but mostly ignored, like speeding).

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Old 01-13-18, 10:55 AM   #88
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A big reason people are impatient with it is because they see it as illegal.
The illegality is irrelevant and not the primary reason motorists are aggravated by cyclists.

Most motorists turn off a portion of their brain when they get behind the wheel of a car and become irrationally irritated by anything that impedes their progress in any way. Whether it's another vehicle driving 5mph too slowly or a cyclist riding at 15mph.

Driving becomes a competitive activity and their blood pressure has been shown to rise 20 pts if another vehicle manages to get 15 ft in front of them in rush hour traffic. Seeing a cyclist ride through a stop sign at 10mph when they slow to 3mph increases their blood pressure by 30pts due to the perceived unfairness.

On an average commute every driver participates in an witnesses countless illegal activities. As long as these activities don't impede progress they have no problems.
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Old 01-13-18, 11:12 AM   #89
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The illegality is irrelevant...
No, the illegality is not irrelevant.

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...and not the primary reason motorists are aggravated by cyclists.
Cyclists in general?

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On an average commute every driver participates in an witnesses countless illegal activities. As long as these activities don't impede progress they have no problems.
Drivers tend to be irritated when drivers run red lights. And not irritated by moderate speeding. The "optics" are very different.

We aren't talking about all illegal activities.

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Old 01-13-18, 08:11 PM   #90
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??? The law doesn't require cyclists to do this.
If the law doesn't require cyclists to proceed one at a time as cars do, how many cyclists does the law specify may go through the intersection together?

In any case, I wasn't intending to suggest the law requires that. But it would be legal.
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Old 01-14-18, 10:32 AM   #91
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If the law doesn't require cyclists to proceed one at a time as cars do, how many cyclists does the law specify may go through the intersection together?
The only requirement is that individual cyclists don't enter the intersection that has a red.

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In any case, I wasn't intending to suggest the law requires that. But it would be legal.
Since no one would chose to do that, it seems irrelevant.
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Old 01-14-18, 10:58 AM   #92
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The only requirement is that individual cyclists don't enter the intersection that has a red.
I was speaking of 4 way stops. Where a group should of course cede right of way as appropriate on reaching the intersection, but IMO should then proceed as a group because that method is to the advantage of all road users.

If you believe in such case the law does not allow the group to proceed as one, but does not require each rider to cross the intersection individually, how many riders are legally allowed to go through the intersection as a group?
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Old 01-14-18, 11:20 AM   #93
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I was speaking of 4 way stops. Where a group should of course cede right of way as appropriate on reaching the intersection, but IMO should then proceed as a group because that method is to the advantage of all road users.
You didn't make that clear.

Still, even in that case, the cyclists wouldn't stop serially one-at-a-time. So, your example isn't realistic.

If the group is proceeding, the cross traffic is forced to wait anyway.

4 way stops are an interesting case. I suspect it is expected that people using them put some thought and care into crossing.

"Advocates" here are expecting other people (not in the group) to have to maintain/accommodate the integrity of a group (allowing the group to do illegal things).

That's kind of one sided. It's kind of selfish.

There is another option (one that some people seem to think is not even possible): keep groups to a "manageable" size where they aren't forced to do illegal things.

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If you believe in such case the law does not allow the group to proceed as one, but does not require each rider to cross the intersection individually, how many riders are legally allowed to go through the intersection as a group?
Do you know?

What's a group?

How big a group is reasonable?

Riders that are pacelining?

How big a gap is allowed before the group is no longer one group?

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Old 01-14-18, 06:52 PM   #94
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Laws don't allow anything; they only disallow. If it's not disallowed by law, then it's allowed.
There are laws to strike previously prohibited things or conditionally permit them.

I'm not a lawyer but I used to wait for the Criminal Justice classes to end to find refundable cans and our former police chief graduated with that class so effectively I've stayed at a Holiday Inn Express.

There are arguments, and then there are just whatevers.
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Old 01-14-18, 07:23 PM   #95
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But the illegality of the latter part of a peloton running a red light is not as clear.
It’s perfectly clear that a platoon of vehicles is not permitted to run red lights. No matter if they are motorized or human powered.

But, tons, carnage, efficiency, whatever other rationalizations you may invoke, bottom line, the laws apply to you too.

The exception that proves the rule - funeral processions.

But that’s ok, cat-6 trumps all laws, because?

-mr. bill

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Old 01-14-18, 08:55 PM   #96
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I take it on a case by case basis -- when approaching a traffic light in a group, I ask myself, "what choice can I make at this point that will cause greatest offense to the feminannies over in A&S?" Then, I do that.

Nobody cares.
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Old 01-15-18, 10:28 AM   #97
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It’s perfectly clear that a platoon of vehicles is not permitted to run red lights. No matter if they are motorized or human powered.
Pretty-much.

"Vehicle platoons" aren't mentioned in the law (except for funeral processions). As far as the traffic law is concerned, they don't exist. They certainly don't exist as an excuse to break the law.
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Old 01-16-18, 10:59 AM   #98
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You don't know what you are talking about.

A big reason people are impatient with it is because they see it as illegal.
We're talking about groups of cyclists dealing with STOP signs in one of two different ways:
  1. The front of the group stops at the stop sign, and then, when it's their turn, the whole group proceeds.
  2. The whole group blows the stop sign.
Both approaches are obviously illegal, but the way others, including LE, react to and accept them are radically different. I'm defending #1; not #2. The illegality is irrelevant. People don't mind #1; they even encourage it. Nobody wants every cyclist in the group to come to a complete stop independent of the group when they get to the limit line. What gets everyone upset is #2, and understandably so. Of course, you gave me an example of #2, which is what made we wonder if you even knew what we were talking about.

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It took way too many posts for you to admit (grudgingly) that it was illegal (which it obviously is).
Like you say, it's obvious. What is there to "admit"?

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The responsible driver is the individual rider. Riding in a pack is a choice.
Again, you're not understanding. It's a thought experiment: draft a law that treats groups of cyclists as a single vehicular unit. Say one that allows #1 above. It's very difficult if not impossible. That's my point. But that doesn't mean it's unreasonable for cyclists to do this. In fact, they've been doing it all over the world since the beginning of the last century. And yet the evidence that it's problematic in terms of crashes with cars isn't there. Indeed, your biggest argument against it is, "it's selfish". In other words, "we don't get to drive our cars in groups, so you shouldn't get to do it on bikes (never mind all the enormous physical and logistical differences)".
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Old 01-16-18, 11:06 AM   #99
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We're talking about groups of cyclists dealing with STOP signs in one of two different ways:
No. Read the original post.

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I went on my first tweed ride over the weekend, and the leader issued a directive that I had not heard before and was not prepared to comply with; it was to cross the intersection as a group. This effectively means that if the light turns red, do not stop, but continue, as part of an imaginary "whole".
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Like you say, it's obvious. What is there to "admit"?
You said it "not as clear". It's obvious but "not as clear"?

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Certainly illegal for solo cyclists or the front of a group to enter on red. But the illegality of the latter part of a peloton running a red light is not as clear.
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It's a thought experiment: draft a law that treats groups of cyclists as a single vehicular unit. Say one that allows #1 above. It's very difficult if not impossible.
This is an example of your magical thinking.

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