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Old 11-12-17, 12:02 PM   #1
unterhausen
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Semi-autonomous BMW forces close pass of cyclists

Semi-autonomous BMW will ?fight driver? to deliver close passes of cyclists | road.cc

when I first saw this story, I thought the problem was that it didn't detect cyclists. But now I realize it's just worrying about going over the lane line more than it worries about passing distance. My toyota would brake in this situation. Of course, it will not do lane following at 25mph or less, so it might not come up.
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Old 11-13-17, 02:56 PM   #2
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Semi-autonomous BMW will ?fight driver? to deliver close passes of cyclists | road.cc

when I first saw this story, I thought the problem was that it didn't detect cyclists. But now I realize it's just worrying about going over the lane line more than it worries about passing distance. My toyota would brake in this situation. Of course, it will not do lane following at 25mph or less, so it might not come up.
These Level 2 systems are awful. I wish everyone would just to do what Waymo is doing: Level 5 or manual.
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Old 11-13-17, 03:08 PM   #3
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So, identical to the majority of human drivers who consistently display more care for paint than fellow road users?
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Old 11-13-17, 03:13 PM   #4
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So who would be liable to death of a cyclists in this case? BMW the company or owner of the BMW?
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Old 11-15-17, 12:43 PM   #5
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So who would be liable to death of a cyclists in this case? BMW the company or owner of the BMW?


Death? In a close pass? How did the cyclist die? From fear? From pancreatic cancer? Old age?
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Old 11-15-17, 12:55 PM   #6
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Death? In a close pass? How did the cyclist die? From fear? From pancreatic cancer? Old age?
Sadly, some think that a cyclist hit by a side mirror is nothing more than a close pass.
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Old 11-15-17, 01:27 PM   #7
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Sadly, some think that a cyclist hit by a side mirror is nothing more than a close pass.


Who got hit by a mirror? Did we enter the Twilight Zone, and we're now in a completely different thread? The topic is "Semi-autonomous BMW forces close pass of cyclists", not "Semi-autonomous BMW smacks cyclists with side mirror, then giggles to itself". (Emphasis mine.)

The article says, "Honest John writes: “If the road ahead is clear apart from a solitary cyclist, you do need to signal to overtake him, otherwise the steering wheel will fight you and you could pass him uncomfortably close.”"


So, the solution is to use the turn signal, which, as we all know, is an optional accessory on BMW motor vehicles, and is never, ever selected by the owners, which is the real story, here.
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Old 11-15-17, 05:30 PM   #8
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This sounds like BMW forgot to consider cyclists when designing or "training" its semi-autonomous software. This is a big omission in a country like the UK with so many car-bicycle interactions
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Old 11-15-17, 05:30 PM   #9
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Death? In a close pass? How did the cyclist die? From fear? From pancreatic cancer? Old age?
Are you implying that close passes are not dangerous and cannot lead to accidents and death?
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Old 11-15-17, 06:31 PM   #10
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So, the solution is to use the turn signal, which, as we all know, is an optional accessory on BMW motor vehicles, and is never, ever selected by the owners, which is the real story, here.
This! Well played!
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Old 11-15-17, 09:58 PM   #11
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Are you implying that close passes are not dangerous and cannot lead to accidents and death?
Sounds like he demands a dead cyclist before he considers it a problem.
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Old 11-15-17, 10:02 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by unterhausen View Post
Semi-autonomous BMW will ?fight driver? to deliver close passes of cyclists | road.cc

when I first saw this story, I thought the problem was that it didn't detect cyclists. But now I realize it's just worrying about going over the lane line more than it worries about passing distance. My toyota would brake in this situation. Of course, it will not do lane following at 25mph or less, so it might not come up.
I've had this kind of thing happen with my new Toyota Rav4. The "semi-autonomous" correction is fairly subtle, but it irks me that it does this at all. There is an over-ride button, (and a turn signal, which on the open road is fine, but around blind corners there might not be enough time), but I would rather leave the lane change detection on, and have the other settings on standard. Mine cuts out under ~35mph, and on the windy narrow mountainous roads where I live, it is definitely an issue.

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Old 11-15-17, 10:04 PM   #13
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This! Well played!
In California, the use of turn signals is considered by many to be giving away information to the enemy.
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Old 11-15-17, 10:30 PM   #14
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In California, the use of turn signals is considered by many to be giving away information to the enemy.
I'm never driven in California. But I have driven in places where people don't signal because it makes it harder to switch lanes.

That is a symptom of a bad driving culture.
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Old 11-16-17, 01:50 AM   #15
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I'm never driven in California. But I have driven in places where people don't signal because it makes it harder to switch lanes.

That is a symptom of a bad driving culture.
Worrying about human drivers not signaling now, at the end of the human-driven-automobile era, is like worrying about an egg shortage on the Titanic.
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Old 11-16-17, 02:18 AM   #16
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Worrying about human drivers not signaling now, at the end of the human-driven-automobile era, is like worrying about an egg shortage on the Titanic.

That's a fair point.

I might be wrong, but I think we still have a very long time before self-driving cars take over worldwide.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnPiP9PkLAs
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Old 11-16-17, 06:57 AM   #17
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Are you implying that close passes are not dangerous and cannot lead to accidents and death?


You didn't answer any of my questions. Why should I answer yours?
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Old 11-16-17, 07:00 AM   #18
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Sounds like he demands a dead cyclist before he considers it a problem.


Certainly before I consider "who would be liable to death of a cyclists". Indeed, it's practically necessary.
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Old 11-16-17, 11:16 AM   #19
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In California, the use of turn signals is considered by many to be giving away information to the enemy.
Or a sign of weakness.
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Old 11-16-17, 12:07 PM   #20
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Certainly before I consider "who would be liable to death of a cyclists". Indeed, it's practically necessary.
No habeas corpus necessary on the Soap Opera Drama Show available on A&S 24/7.
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Old 11-16-17, 01:54 PM   #21
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You didn't answer any of my questions.
I thought the questions that you asked were rhetorical. I didn't think you were expecting an answer. I will try to answer now.

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Death? In a close pass? How did the cyclist die? From fear? From pancreatic cancer? Old age?
I suspect that sometimes cyclists die due to accidents that could be avoided if cars didn't pass cyclists that closely. The cyclist in the story has not died yet as far as I know.

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Who got hit by a mirror? Did we enter the Twilight Zone, and we're now in a completely different thread?
Nobody in the story linked was hit by a mirror. We are not in a completely different thread. It is the same thread. You can verify this by scrolling up.


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Why should I answer yours?
It sounded to see like you were trying to make a point. But the point that you were trying to make is not very clear to me. If you did want to make a point, it would be better if you made it explicitly, by answering my question. But you don't have to if you don't want to.

I'll ask again in case you do what to make the point. Are you trying to imply that close passes are not dangerous and cannot result in death?
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Old 11-16-17, 02:20 PM   #22
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I suspect that sometimes cyclists die due to accidents that could be avoided if cars didn't pass cyclists that closely. The cyclist in the story has not died yet as far as I know.

You didn't read the article. Why are you arguing, if you didn't read the article? (Note: that question is not rhetorical). How closely is "that closely"? (Note: that question is not rhetorical, either).

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Nobody in the story linked was hit by a mirror. We are not in a completely different thread. It is the same thread. You can verify this by scrolling up.

You don't know, because you didn't read the article.

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It sounded to see like you were trying to make a point. But the point that you were trying to make is not very clear to me. If you did want to make a point, it would be better if you made it explicitly, by answering my question. But you don't have to if you don't want to.

Thanks.

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I'll ask again in case you do what to make the point. Are you trying to imply that close passes are not dangerous and cannot result in death?
I'll concede that a close pass could be deemed a proximate cause of a crash that could result in death. However, since there was no close pass "in this case", and no cyclist that crashed "in this case", I still consider it a monumental leap to begin assigning liability "in this case".
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Old 11-16-17, 02:47 PM   #23
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You didn't read the article. Why are you arguing, if you didn't read the article? (Note: that question is not rhetorical). How closely is "that closely"? (Note: that question is not rhetorical, either).
Jesus, you are a feisty one. Firs of all, your question is ill posted because I did read the article, and the articles linked inside the article, and I saw the video referenced in the article of a semi-autonomous car doing a close pass during a test drive. But I'll admit that my memory of the article is a bit fuzzy and I didn't pay too much attention when answering your rhetorical questions. Because what I wanted to do is get an answer.

Why am I arguing? Again, because I wanted to understand your point, which you still seem reluctant to make clearly. I don't have a strong opinion about how dangerous are the passes that people on YT label as close passes. That is why I am asking your opinion.

How closely is "that closely"? It depends largely on context. If a compact car passes me very closely at 12mph when I'm riding 10mph, I would feel a lot safer than if a semi doing 65 passed 6 ft away.

Again, your original post was "Death? In a close pass? How did the cyclist die? From fear? From pancreatic cancer? Old age?" But, I'll take it from your new answer that was not the point you were trying to make


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I'll concede that a close pass could be deemed a proximate cause of a crash that could result in death. However, since there was no close pass "in this case", and no cyclist that crashed "in this case", I still consider it a monumental leap to begin assigning liability "in this case".
Just because a death hasn't occurred yet, doesn't mean that it is too early to speculate about how liability should be assigned. So, let me reformulate the original question.

Consider the following hypothetical scenario. A driver tries to move away from a cyclist while passing without signaling, but the cars semi-autonomous driving systems prevent the driving from allowing sufficient space. The cyclist is clipped by the mirror, falls down and is seriously injured. How should liability be assigned? Is the driver completely liable? Or does BMW share some of the liability?
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Old 11-16-17, 06:48 PM   #24
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Consider the following hypothetical scenario. A driver tries to move away from a cyclist while passing without signaling, but the cars semi-autonomous driving systems prevent the driving from allowing sufficient space. The cyclist is clipped by the mirror, falls down and is seriously injured. How should liability be assigned? Is the driver completely liable? Or does BMW share some of the liability?
I'll play.

The question is nonsensical. The car in question was a Level 2 AV. No way would a Level 2 prevent the driver from allowing sufficient space. There is no point about speculating about an impossible hypothetical. Same with Level 3.

Only with Level 4 is it possible that the car would override the driver's steering inputs. Realistically, I can't imagine anyone will release a Level 4 that will close-pass cyclists, so practically speaking this is probably an impossible hypothetical too.

But if something like that does happen (and there is actually a crash and injury) with a Level 4 or 5 car, certainly the manufacturer would be liable.


Reference: Levels of driving automation
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Old 11-16-17, 10:05 PM   #25
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Realistically, I can't imagine anyone will release a Level 4 that will close-pass cyclists, so practically speaking this is probably an impossible hypothetical too.
Got it, if YOU can't or don't imagine a specific scenario happening, than it is impossible; and as a counterpoint, if YOU do imagine a specific scenario happening, than it is a certainty and it will happen in two shakes of a lamb's tail and without any legitimate doubt of that certainty.
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