Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Advocacy & Safety
Reload this Page >

It had to happen eventually.

Notices
Advocacy & Safety Cyclists should expect and demand safe accommodation on every public road, just as do all other users. Discuss your bicycle advocacy and safety concerns here.

It had to happen eventually.

Old 11-14-17, 07:36 PM
  #1  
FBinNY
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Posts: 35,964

Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter

Mentioned: 125 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4368 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 40 Times in 35 Posts
It had to happen eventually.

Cyclist killed by car with self driving capability

Actually a better way of saying this is "cyclist killed by driver of car with self-driving capability"

Offered without comment since the facts aren't in, and we don't even know if the self drive was engaged. But we knew it was only a question of time.
FBinNY is offline  
Old 11-15-17, 04:51 AM
  #2  
work4bike
Senior Member
 
work4bike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlantic Beach Florida
Posts: 1,464
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2197 Post(s)
Liked 335 Times in 253 Posts
Yeah, still need more information before saying much about this accident; however, this story did make me wonder...

If a car that automatically parallel parks itself accidentally hits another person/object (parked car or otherwise) who is at fault? I wonder if this has happened yet?
work4bike is online now  
Old 11-15-17, 07:48 AM
  #3  
mr_bill
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 4,345
Mentioned: 33 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1991 Post(s)
Liked 501 Times in 347 Posts
Originally Posted by Manual
Warning: During the parking sequence, continually check your surroundings. Be prepared to apply the brakes to avoid vehicles, pedestrians, or objects.
-mr. bill
mr_bill is offline  
Old 11-15-17, 08:19 AM
  #4  
genec
genec
 
genec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 26,733

Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2

Mentioned: 57 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10715 Post(s)
Liked 2,737 Times in 1,879 Posts
More information... the car is a Tesla, and does NOT have real self drive abilities, merely intelligent cruise control.

While not a fully self-driving vehicle, the Model S has an autopilot feature that allows the car to steer itself in certain circumstances.
IE, not a self driving car.


Tesla says it encourages Model S drivers to stay alert and keep their hands near the steering wheel, even when in autopilot, the availability of (quasi) self-driving cars raises all kinds of questions about any dangers the vehicles may pose to cyclists.
Indeed, if motorists don't use the features correctly, those features can be a hazard to the driver as well as to to others... witness the Tesla that ran into a truck, killing the Tesla owner
genec is offline  
Old 11-15-17, 01:01 PM
  #5  
genec
genec
 
genec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 26,733

Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2

Mentioned: 57 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10715 Post(s)
Liked 2,737 Times in 1,879 Posts
Originally Posted by mtb_addict View Post
Not just a cruise control. Autopilot steers the car, acelerate, decelerate, brake, without any human input... under ideal conditions, on limited access roads.

Autopilot is indeed self-driving...but it sucks at it...so a human has to be ready to take over at any time.
fixed it for you
genec is offline  
Old 11-15-17, 07:56 PM
  #6  
Daniel4
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Toronto
Posts: 2,598

Bikes: Sekine 1979 ten speed racer

Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1008 Post(s)
Liked 208 Times in 147 Posts
Either the driver put it in manual override and ran over the cyclist or the driver wasn't paying attention by taking over to avoid the collision. That's why the authorities want drivers to take control. So in both situations, it would be the motorist at fault.
Daniel4 is offline  
Old 11-16-17, 04:45 AM
  #7  
scott967
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Oahu, HI
Posts: 1,310

Bikes: 89 Paramount OS 84 Fuji Touring Series III New! 2013 Focus Izalco Ergoride

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 258 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 47 Times in 37 Posts
Soon we will see an NHTSA mandate for event data recorders (EDR) for these cars. Tesla does have its own data recording, but it is in proprietary format and Tesla has to read it out for NTSB / investigators in the 2016 fatal crash.

scott s.
.
scott967 is offline  
Old 11-16-17, 12:18 PM
  #8  
I-Like-To-Bike
Been Around Awhile
 
I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 28,552

Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked 595 Times in 385 Posts
Originally Posted by scott967 View Post
Soon we will see an NHTSA mandate for event data recorders (EDR) for these cars.
Good idea. Perhaps these recorders might not be programmed to discount or ignore the possibility that negative events maybe the fault of the vehicle's software or hardware, and not the driver.
I-Like-To-Bike is offline  
Old 11-17-17, 05:37 AM
  #9  
Cyclist0084
Senior Member
 
Cyclist0084's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,812
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 184 Post(s)
Liked 353 Times in 90 Posts
Originally Posted by mtb_addict View Post
How can that be? Then, Tesla can read out whatever it wants.

They gonna say the Autopilot was disabled...to push the blame on the driver.
If they say Autopilot is defective...it could be the end of the company, which is struggling to make it as a mainstream car company...because of lawsuits will be flying and it's a small fry...cannot absorb lawsuits like giants like GM.
It would then be in the NTSB's best interests to have a representative on hand as the data is being printed out / read.
Cyclist0084 is offline  
Old 11-17-17, 03:38 PM
  #10  
Chris0516
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Washington Grove, Maryland
Posts: 1,466

Bikes: 2003 (24)20-Speed Specialized Allez'

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 396 Post(s)
Liked 6 Times in 6 Posts
Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
Cyclist killed by car with self driving capability

Actually a better way of saying this is "cyclist killed by driver of car with self-driving capability"

Offered without comment since the facts aren't in, and we don't even know if the self drive was engaged. But we knew it was only a question of time.
I saw this in my e-mail. This is sad.
Chris0516 is offline  
Old 11-17-17, 04:18 PM
  #11  
Ninety5rpm
Banned
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,341
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 959 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by mtb_addict View Post
Not just a cruise control. Autopilot steers the car, acelerate, decelerate, brake, without any human input.

Autopilot is indeed self-driving...but it sucks at it...so a human has to be ready to take over at any time.
Calling Autopilot self-driving is using the term far too loosely, IMHO.

It's Level 2 bull excrement.
Ninety5rpm is offline  
Old 11-22-17, 06:29 PM
  #12  
Canuk1w1
Senior Member
 
Canuk1w1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 77

Bikes: Miele Laser (Suntour Superbe Pro groupo)

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 16 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by IndianaRecRider View Post
It would then be in the NTSB's best interests to have a representative on hand as the data is being printed out / read.
Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
Good idea. Perhaps these recorders might not be programmed to discount or ignore the possibility that negative events maybe the fault of the vehicle's software or hardware, and not the driver.
Both spot on. So they (NTSB) also need to review the source code. The best would be to mandate a standard format for all manufacturers else they can pull the same trick VW tried with emissions testing.
Canuk1w1 is offline  
Old 12-24-17, 11:00 AM
  #13  
phoebeisis
New Orleans
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,793
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 157 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
A driver is always responsible for controlling the vehicle.
Of course owners of self driving auto-pilot vehicles are going to use that capability to spend time fooling with their electronic devices.
Heck Not Self Driving vehicle drivers regularly fool with their electronics while driving.
I KNOW THIS because I watch drivers while I'm riding.
Crude guess 1/3 of drivers who are stopped-light or stop sign or getting ready to pull onto street Immediately start peering into their LAPS
They are fooling with "some equipment" guessing it is electronics and not "something else"

This accident will be human error-like 99.9% of car accidents.
(And train accidents-80mph in a 30mph zone-DUH!)
phoebeisis is offline  
Old 01-01-18, 01:35 PM
  #14  
Bluechip
Senior Member
 
Bluechip's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Cypress TX
Posts: 1,167

Bikes: Salsa Fargo Ti, Cannondale CAAD9, Carbonello Fixed Gear, Specialized Epic Disc

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 34 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 12 Times in 7 Posts
The Tesla autopilot is not meant for roads a cyclist would be riding on. It is meant for highway use only at the moment but it can be engaged on many roads. It is technically in beta and your hands must be on the wheel at all times or you will get a warning after around 15 seconds. After three warnings it (autopilot) will shut down and can't be started again until the car is restarted. At the moment AP really is just a glorified cruise control. It can't follow a route or make turns. It won't avoid potholes or road debris. The driver is 100% responsible for the car until full autonomy is reached.

I've never come upon a cyclist while using autopilot so I can't say as to how it reacts. If I use the summon feature (backs itself out of the garage at 2 mph) it will stop if the dog runs behind it.

We are eagerly waiting for the fully autonomous update to AP which was shown in the well publicized video released last year. It was on slow speed local roads and it did pass cyclist and joggers safely. We are not there yet.
Bluechip is offline  
Old 01-01-18, 03:27 PM
  #15  
MikeyMK
Cycleway town
 
MikeyMK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Milton Keynes, England
Posts: 1,402

Bikes: 2.6kw GT LTS e-tandem, 250w Voodoo, 250w solar recumbent trike, 3-speed shopper, Merlin ol/skl mtb, 80cc Ellswick

Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 568 Post(s)
Liked 169 Times in 117 Posts
The driver is solely responsible for their vehicle. End of story.

Power steering wasn't an excuse to shirk responsibility. Neither was ABS brakes. Neither was stability control. And neither is self braking, auto pilot, or any other feature.

In my opinion, someone who detaches themselves from the full aspects of driving is irresponsible. And manufacturers are irresponsible for perservering with the technology. No automotive electronics were ever 100 percent reliable, they fail. Auto braking and child detection will fail, and people will get killed, so anyone supporting the technology is reckless.

That's my opinion, but the responsibility is fact, must remain so, and every driver must be aware of this and treated accordingly by the justice system if their vehicle causes harm in their care.
MikeyMK is offline  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
sw20
Advocacy & Safety
68
02-17-16 11:38 AM
FarHorizon
Advocacy & Safety
50
12-24-14 05:46 AM
eofelis
Advocacy & Safety
25
03-16-14 09:29 AM
richardmasoner
Singlespeed & Fixed Gear
79
05-23-13 07:10 PM
acidfast7
Commuting
5
09-21-12 09:29 AM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.