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Old 02-12-18, 04:14 PM   #26
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Any condolences for the lost cyclists? Mine go out, without question.


Sometimes you get past the usual garbage and mourn.
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Old 02-12-18, 04:50 PM   #27
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Wait for it........
.
..
...

Someone will chime in and say it was the cyclists fault.
He was riding too far to the right.
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Old 02-12-18, 04:59 PM   #28
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And as I understood it from the start, local news report, it's apparent to me that this driver wasn't paying attention to the fact a bike race was in progress, probably passed barriers and was already out of control to be able to prevent it, simply from the speed involved. This guy should be forbidden to even own Matchbox and Hot Wheels. That's why I care more about their victims, they showed total recklessness and disregard for life, including their own.
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Old 02-12-18, 05:11 PM   #29
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And as I understood it from the start, local news report, it's apparent to me that this driver wasn't paying attention to the fact a bike race was in progress, probably passed barriers and was already out of control to be able to prevent it, simply from the speed involved. This guy should be forbidden to even own Matchbox and Hot Wheels. That's why I care more about their victims, they showed total recklessness and disregard for life, including their own.
As far as I can tell, it wasn't a race in most senses of the word. Simply a century ride for ordinary citizens. Thus, also being done on an open course, rather than a closed course.

If they have enough participants, however, they should consider closing all, or part of the course (start, and perhaps finish were closed, but the rest was open to traffic).
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Old 02-12-18, 06:01 PM   #30
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A lot of places simply won't close roads. You could nto pay them enough unless you were Koch brother or a Walton.

I worked with a local race, and the best that could be done was a full police escort for the peloton ... but if stuff broke up into too many groups, no way to do that. No city can throw two dozen cops at a bike race unless it is the Tour de California or something. The kinds of town where you would Want to have a road race, probably has few cops also .... and few roads, so everybody has to take those roads. That vent did a lot of private motorcycle riders who guarded the different groups because the cops could not.

That event did close off a section of downtown on Sunday ... but auto traffic downtown on Sunday was near nonexistent, the business which were isolated were mostly sponsors and had entrances for mother roads, an there are enough streets in downtown that it was easy to get anywhere with minimal disturbance.

For a road event ... cars Will share the road, unless you are AToC or some such.

But ... there is no magic Bullet. i came across this gem today:

"Verona [email protected]_PD
We've had reports of people moving barricades and driving on the closed portion of the Highway. Please don't do that. The road is closed for a reason! 11:06 AM - Feb 12, 2018."

20-car pile-up, one fatality, numerous injuries, so the road is closed, and lame-nuts are moving the barricades so they can get where they want to go. Yahoo .
Wisconsin: Multivehicle Crash Caused by Fog Claims One Life | NTD.TV
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Old 02-12-18, 06:26 PM   #31
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I disagree. The CHP is actually pretty bike friendly.

Many of its members are avid cyclists.

They put on a show every year for the AMGEN Tour of California. I have seen them first hand. France even sent reps to California to meet with the CHP and learn from them.

In years of riding and after many thousand miles I have yet to run into a “bike-hating” CHP officers.

These men and women do a great job.
Here is a video of one:
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Old 02-12-18, 11:29 PM   #32
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Here is a video of one:
So are you basing your opinion on a short clip from an isolated incident?

WOW, genius, total genius.

Bless your heart.
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Old 02-12-18, 11:32 PM   #33
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Oh, you mean the Tesla that has already killed somebody because it couldn't tell the difference between a truck and the sky? That Tesla?

And that will only be the tip of the iceberg. There will be more.

And, restitution doesn't bring back someone's life. But, it is also part of penitence.
Was Musk driving it? I must have missed that part.

Penitence? Really? Who outside the Catholic church talks in terms of penitence.
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Old 02-12-18, 11:44 PM   #34
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Was Musk driving it? I must have missed that part.

Penitence? Really? Who outside the Catholic church talks in terms of penitence.
His company wrote the software that was responsible for the driver's death. Yet, Musk apparently escaped without even a day in court. Fortunately it was only the driver that was injured, so the immediate response was "blame the (not) driver".

Yes, it did give warnings, but the software could have also pulled the car to the side of the road and shut itself off when it was pushed outside of its design parameters.

I have to think the company, and by extension, the BOSS, was at least aware that some drivers were using the "self driving" feature of the cars before the accident occurred, perhaps smiling at how well their car was performing.
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Old 02-13-18, 12:52 AM   #35
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That vehicle was NOT autonomous, it had collision avoidance features and some driver assist features, and those are in no way 'driverless' technology. This is not a warranty issue, nor is the system designed to prevent all collisions.


Let's deal with reality here and realize that there is no responsibility on the part of Tesla for misuse of the engineering of their product.


Mercedes has/had a steering assist feature that was designed to keep their cars more steady on the road, in conjunction with collision avoidance features (auto-braking).


In no way was the Tesla feature meant to continuously steer the car in place of human driving.


Not only was it negligent driving, this subject has been brought up a few times before and the answer hasn't changed.


Tesla was not responsible for the negligent operation of their vehicle(s) and posting the operating instructions in the owner's manual is sufficient responsibility on their part. You are supposed to read the manual.
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Old 02-13-18, 12:55 AM   #36
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And how did the discussion get diverted from the original car/bike fatality topic? Is the discussion over?
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Old 02-13-18, 08:57 AM   #37
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My wife & I rode the 50 mile loop. It's our 5th or 6th time (we also do the Patriot Ride in Oct.). This isn't a race, it's a charity ride for the local area. There are several routes from a 10 mile family-oriented cruise to the 100 miler. The cyclists hit were on the 100 mile loop which went south of Indio on very rural roads (Dillon Road) mostly traveled by local farmers hence the high speed of the car. Any other day of the year he would most likely have just spun off into the sand.
The ride is very well organized and most major intersections are fully or partially controlled by CHP or local Police. They also cruise the route regularly to maintain as much safety as possible. On major streets often the right lane is coned off for cyclists. Most of the route is on very wide, minimally travelled streets which often have a bike lane. We never felt unsafe or nervous during the ride.
Short of closing the entire route there was NO WAY to prevent this tragedy. Maybe if the driver was charged with 2nd degree murder and given 20 years mandatory instead of vehicular manslaughter the next idiot might think twice.
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Old 02-13-18, 11:45 AM   #38
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Yes, officer, you are supposed to pull over into the other lane to avoid hitting a bicyclist, same as you would if you were passing a car.
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Old 02-13-18, 06:24 PM   #39
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So it seems some dumb kid was speeding ridiculously (I have done it (though when much younger than him)... i am sure no one else here ever has), saw the cyclists,, tried to move over, couldn't control his car (doesn't take much to get out of shape at high speed---come over a rise, see some riders, jerk the wheel and the rest is just very imprecise general guidance.)

Once he overshot on the far side, he over-corrected, his car was sliding, he hit pavement and the tires hooked up and shot back across the road, clipped the riders, went right off the far side, and rolled
.

This reckless driver passed me within a couple feet at well over the speed limit not long before the accident. Scared the bejeesus out of me.


From fellow cyclists who I spoke to who saw what happened: Cyclists were riding on/near shoulder. A truck doing around the actual speed limit or less...moved over toward oncoming lane to give room to the riders as is polite and warranted for safe passing. The reckless driver was coming so fast by time he realized he needed to do something to avoid hitting the other vehicle, he couldn't slow enough and so he tried to go around the other vehicle in the oncoming lane but got onto shoulder and lost control, over corrected and spun toward the other side of the road where the cyclists were, hit them and then hit berm and rolled over.


He passed many cyclists at high rate of speed well before the accident. I'm saddened by what seems like low bail for murdering someone. This was no accident because he was driving at such a high speed by choice that he chose to kill.
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Old 02-13-18, 09:32 PM   #40
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So are you basing your opinion on a short clip from an isolated incident?

WOW, genius, total genius.

Bless your heart.
There are several cyclist that have experienced CHP first hand. The same is true for motorcyclist. I have personally experience CHP as both a cyclist and motorcyclist. While living in CA, it was tiresome seeing them speeding at ridicules speeds with no lights or siren. CHP has also miss treated firemen on emergency calls.

The only reason that CHP - bicyclist interactions are limited is the primary time CHP spends on highways. But there have been several bad interactions on 101.

Just scan YouTube and google, you can find other examples.

Family, witness question CHP errors in initial report on fatal bicycle crash | The Sacramento Bee
https://la.streetsblog.org/2009/03/0...ighway-patrol/
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Old 02-13-18, 10:57 PM   #41
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The only reason that CHP - bicyclist interactions are limited is the primary time CHP spends on highways. But there have been several bad interactions on 101.
Lots of individual officers in the CHP who all have their own opinions on cyclists. A number of years ago we did a ride from the SF Bay area (Tracy) to the LA area (Santa Clarita) down I-5 and had only good interactions with CHP. Most just gave a friendly wave, but there was one who took a real interest in our ride and stopped a few times to check up on how we were doing and chat a bit about the ride. Although this whole stretch of interstate shoulder was bike-legal, there are apparently very few cyclists who ride on it.
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Old 02-14-18, 12:34 AM   #42
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This reckless driver passed me within a couple feet at well over the speed limit not long before the accident. Scared the bejeesus out of me.


From fellow cyclists who I spoke to who saw what happened: Cyclists were riding on/near shoulder. A truck doing around the actual speed limit or less...moved over toward oncoming lane to give room to the riders as is polite and warranted for safe passing. The reckless driver was coming so fast by time he realized he needed to do something to avoid hitting the other vehicle, he couldn't slow enough and so he tried to go around the other vehicle in the oncoming lane but got onto shoulder and lost control, over corrected and spun toward the other side of the road where the cyclists were, hit them and then hit berm and rolled over.


He passed many cyclists at high rate of speed well before the accident. I'm saddened by what seems like low bail for murdering someone. This was no accident because he was driving at such a high speed by choice that he chose to kill.
Good explanation, thank you. You're right it's not an accident.
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Old 02-14-18, 10:59 AM   #43
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As near as I can tell they've got him easily for killing someone while speeding, reckless driving and driving on a suspended license. If that's not criminal vehicular homicide with gross negligence, nothing is. 7+ years in prison I believe.
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Old 02-14-18, 11:19 AM   #44
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This reckless driver passed me within a couple feet at well over the speed limit not long before the accident. Scared the bejeesus out of me.


From fellow cyclists who I spoke to who saw what happened: Cyclists were riding on/near shoulder. A truck doing around the actual speed limit or less...moved over toward oncoming lane to give room to the riders as is polite and warranted for safe passing. The reckless driver was coming so fast by time he realized he needed to do something to avoid hitting the other vehicle, he couldn't slow enough and so he tried to go around the other vehicle in the oncoming lane but got onto shoulder and lost control, over corrected and spun toward the other side of the road where the cyclists were, hit them and then hit berm and rolled over.


He passed many cyclists at high rate of speed well before the accident. I'm saddened by what seems like low bail for murdering someone. This was no accident because he was driving at such a high speed by choice that he chose to kill.
I hope you're in contact with the police and/or DA. Sounds like a key witness account.
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Old 02-14-18, 11:19 AM   #45
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Bet he gets no more than a suspended license and a fine. And the license suspension will allow him to drive to work.

“First offender”
“It was an accident”
“Just a cyclist”
“Driver was sober”
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Old 02-14-18, 01:10 PM   #46
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I hope you're in contact with the police and/or DA. Sounds like a key witness account.

I just recounted what two cyclists I spoke to who saw what happened told me. I can only tell them he passed me at high rate of speed as that was all I personally witnessed and I think they have plenty who can attest to that fact.
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Old 02-14-18, 01:28 PM   #47
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Bet he gets no more than a suspended license and a fine. And the license suspension will allow him to drive to work.

“First offender”
“It was an accident”
“Just a cyclist”
“Driver was sober”
Thankfully, you're wrong.

You've been understandably disappointed in many cases, but this one is very different. In most cases juries can sympathize with the motorist. Everyone has attended to a distraction while driving and drifted, for example. So when somebody does that and tragically hits an unnoticed cyclist accidentally, they can imagine doing that themselves. Cops, judges, DAs and jurors all sympathize with such a driver.

This case is entirely different.
  • Suspended license
  • Not merely speeding, 100 mph in a 50!
  • Clearly reckless - had passed many cyclists and continued at a high speed
In addition, I've seen an unconfirmed report that he threw a crack pipe out the window. Not that that would be necessary to put this dangerous animal away for years.

Most people including most potential jurors can't relate to getting their license suspended, much less driving despite the fact that it was suspended. That alone makes the biggest difference. When you put such extremely reckless speeding behavior on top of that, anyone would want to see his goose cooked, no matter how biased against cyclists they may be.
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Old 02-14-18, 02:06 PM   #48
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Thankfully, you're wrong.

You've been understandably disappointed in many cases, but this one is very different. In most cases juries can sympathize with the motorist. Everyone has attended to a distraction while driving and drifted, for example. So when somebody does that and tragically hits an unnoticed cyclist accidentally, they can imagine doing that themselves. Cops, judges, DAs and jurors all sympathize with such a driver.

This case is entirely different.
  • Suspended license
  • Not merely speeding, 100 mph in a 50!
  • Clearly reckless - had passed many cyclists and continued at a high speed
In addition, I've seen an unconfirmed report that he threw a crack pipe out the window. Not that that would be necessary to put this dangerous animal away for years.

Most people including most potential jurors can't relate to getting their license suspended, much less driving despite the fact that it was suspended. That alone makes the biggest difference. When you put such extremely reckless speeding behavior on top of that, anyone would want to see his goose cooked, no matter how biased against cyclists they may be.
Has this gone to court yet? If not... don’t hold your breath. Non-alcohol cases tend to be “forgiven” or “bargained down.”

We are both speculating... so let’s see how this rolls out.
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Old 02-14-18, 02:46 PM   #49
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Has this gone to court yet? If not... don’t hold your breath. Non-alcohol cases tend to be “forgiven” or “bargained down.”

We are both speculating... so let’s see how this rolls out.
We're sharing our reasons for predicting the way we do.

So far you seem to be predicting: they'll go easy on him because they always go easy on sober motorists who kill cyclists.

I'm predicting: they won't go easy on him because this case is very different; he wasn't drinking but he was operating with a suspended license ("being a negligent vehicle operator and failures to appear") and driving very recklessly.

He has already been charged with vehicular manslaughter with gross negligence.

How often does that happen?

He has a long record of reckless and irresponsible driving.

How often is that the case when a driver who kills is let off easy?
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Old 02-14-18, 03:26 PM   #50
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We're sharing our reasons for predicting the way we do.

So far you seem to be predicting: they'll go easy on him because they always go easy on sober motorists who kill cyclists.

I'm predicting: they won't go easy on him because this case is very different; he wasn't drinking but he was operating with a suspended license ("being a negligent vehicle operator and failures to appear") and driving very recklessly.

He has already been charged with vehicular manslaughter with gross negligence.

How often does that happen?

He has a long record of reckless and irresponsible driving.

How often is that the case when a driver who kills is let off easy?
Seems just the other day we were discussing a truck driver that killed a cyclist in NYC... had had his license suspended 9 previous times.

So on this... I have a wait and see attitude, and expect the typical “non-alcohol related” responses.

As further evidence... there is the Kalamazoo driver that killed 5 cyclists... in a drug induced fog... seems pretty cut and dried... case is still pending... while defense seeks delay after delay. Of course the offender IS locked up... and thus not driving. But who knows what might utimately be “plea-bargained” out of this.

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