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1 Cyclist Killed, One Injured in Tour de Palm Springs

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Old 02-11-18, 12:40 AM
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jimincalif
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1 Cyclist Killed, One Injured in Tour de Palm Springs

100 mph speed may have been factor in crash killing Tour de Palm Springs cyclist, CHP says

https://www.desertsun.com/story/news...ity/326285002/
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Old 02-11-18, 04:16 AM
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If he gets off easy .....


Kidnapped at night by hooded fat men in spandex, found later strapped to a cactus with old inner tubes, a broken Chinese CF seat post jammed through his heart.

Not saying anyone should do that, just saying it would make a good news article.
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Old 02-11-18, 09:44 PM
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Wait for it........
.
..
...

Someone will chime in and say it was the cyclists fault.
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Old 02-11-18, 10:23 PM
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That's a heart breaking picture of the two bikes and car.

Would it be feasible to have a vehicle follow the group in subsequent events? Would it have even mattered in this case?

You have a lunatic doing 100mph in a 50mph zone, on a two lane, and there's rolling hills.

Now the taxpayers get stuck feeding and housing this louse, who will probably get released because of overcrowding.
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Old 02-11-18, 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted by CHP Sgt Kee
There were so many participants that it was easy to see that there were bicyclists coming … not like you’re traveling down the road and all of a sudden encounter a few bicyclists
Same old bike-hating CHP. This statement basically says that if it's just a few cyclists then it's understandable when a reckless driver mows them down.
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Old 02-12-18, 04:52 AM
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I'm not familiar with this event, but don't these rides usually have tons of cops along the route? At least, that's been my experience in the events I've participated in.

It seems strange that this person could travel at that speed for any length of time/distance without detection

P.S. I read that another cyclist was killed in 2014 in this same event...
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Old 02-12-18, 06:06 AM
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Originally Posted by GrainBrain View Post
Would it be feasible to have a vehicle follow the group in subsequent events? Would it have even mattered in this case?
If it was a Professional bike race (on open roads?), then perhaps.

But, this was a "century" ride. I think some of the riders arrive in pulses, but they do tend to get spread out quite a bit over time.

What might be possible would be to get, say 400 sign boards that could be dropped along the course, every quarter mile or so, indicating an event in progress. Hopefully drivers would pay more attention.
Originally Posted by GrainBrain View Post
You have a lunatic doing 100mph in a 50mph zone, on a two lane, and there's rolling hills.

Now the taxpayers get stuck feeding and housing this louse, who will probably get released because of overcrowding.
I can't disagree that he was some lunatic. But, he was also a 21 yr old kid. It sounds like mid-day driving. And, for some reason, he veered towards the cyclists. No information on intoxication or impaired driving that I can find (other than allegations of speeding).

I'm not sure long incarceration is the answer.

I'm not sure what the best "punishment" for something like this is. Mandatory permanent revoking the driver's license. Community service & restitution?
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Old 02-12-18, 06:47 AM
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
And, for some reason, he veered towards the cyclists.
According to the article he initially went into the opposite lane to pass some cyclists but went all the way onto the dirt shoulder and lost control. At that point he veered back toward the cyclists and also ended up rolling his car.
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Old 02-12-18, 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted by prathmann View Post
According to the article he initially went into the opposite lane to pass some cyclists but went all the way onto the dirt shoulder and lost control. At that point he veered back toward the cyclists and also ended up rolling his car.
So it seems some dumb kid was speeding ridiculously (I have done it (though when much younger than him)... i am sure no one else here ever has), saw the cyclists,, tried to move over, couldn't control his car (doesn't take much to get out of shape at high speed---come over a rise, see some riders, jerk the wheel and the rest is just very imprecise general guidance.)

Once he overshot on the far side, he over-corrected, his car was sliding, he hit pavement and the tires hooked up and shot back across the road, clipped the riders, went right off the far side, and rolled.

As to the long sentence ... If he had been shooting a gun out the window as he drover and shot two people, would we be talking "community service"?

If he had come over a rise and slammed into two ladies trying to change a tire, would that be worse or better?

If he just lost control and hit another car and killed two people ....

The legal standard for negligent homicide is something like is "engaging in behavior which a reasonable person would have expected might end in the death of others." Driving at 100 mph on an undivided two-lane road .... or even on a divided highway with a 70-mph speed limit .... should be at least second degree murder due to criminal negligence.

The idea is n't to teach this person a lesson ... hopefully he will learn job skills, get a college degree, and all that in prison. The idea is to teach everyone else, "Screw up like this and it Really hurts."

In all likelihood this person will only get smarter with age, no matter what ... and some other dumb kid will do the same later, no matter what the penalties ... because people smart enough to consider the consequences would stop before they started. We are dealing with a group of idiots to begin with, because only idiots do these things. (And yes, back in the day long ago when i drove recklessly, I was being an idiot.)

There is no good answer here. "Against ignorance the gods themselves contend in vain." But letting the guy off easy is misplaced compassion. You want creative sentencing? Give him ten or twenty years of indentured servitude, doing jobs for the families of the people whose members he killed. Do the first half as work -release from prison, the rest from a halfway house.
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Old 02-12-18, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by GrainBrain View Post
That's a heart breaking picture of the two bikes and car.

Would it be feasible to have a vehicle follow the group in subsequent events? Would it have even mattered in this case?

You have a lunatic doing 100mph in a 50mph zone, on a two lane, and there's rolling hills.

Now the taxpayers get stuck feeding and housing this louse, who will probably get released because of overcrowding.
He WILL get released. Even IF he is convicted of a felony and sent to state prison, he will soon be released to a community near you for what is euphemistically referred to as PROS, Post Release Offender Supervision.

Once back in the community he will be free to re-offend with little or no consequences.

You can thank Moonbean Jerry Brown and his cadre of enablers, plus the clueless California electorate, for this taxpayer funded “catch and release” program.

I know, I deal with this on a daily basis, well Monday - Friday.

This is the new reality in the once great state of California.
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Old 02-12-18, 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post

I'm not sure what the best "punishment" for something like this is. Mandatory permanent revoking the driver's license. Community service & restitution?
Nope.

Every day I prosecute individuals who commit crimes while driving with either a suspended or even revoked license.

In California you put your money down, buy a car, and no one cares if you have a license or insurance.

If you get caught driving with a suspended or revoked license, you get a slap on the wrist and are sent back out on the streets.

Community service? Really? What sort of community service will make up for killing an innocent human being whose only crime was having the temerity to ride a bike (like all of us here do) on the open road.

Restitution? Again, no dice. Unless the criminal has money, or wins El Gordo in the lottery, he will never be able to pay restitution.

For many, or most of these crimes, the only solution is to lock the criminals for as long as possible. Granted, There is rehabilitation involved here. The only objective is to keep the community as safe as possible, for as long as possible, from these individuals.

BTW, the California prison system recently changed its name from California Department of Corrections to California Department of Corrections AND Rehabilitation. I am still laughing over the last part.
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Old 02-12-18, 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by B. Carfree View Post
Same old bike-hating CHP. This statement basically says that if it's just a few cyclists then it's understandable when a reckless driver mows them down.
I disagree. The CHP is actually pretty bike friendly.

Many of its members are avid cyclists.

They put on a show every year for the AMGEN Tour of California. I have seen them first hand. France even sent reps to California to meet with the CHP and learn from them.

In years of riding and after many thousand miles I have yet to run into a “bike-hating” CHP officers.

These men and women do a great job.
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Old 02-12-18, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
If he gets off easy .....


Kidnapped at night by hooded fat men in spandex, found later strapped to a cactus with old inner tubes, a broken Chinese CF seat post jammed through his heart.

Not saying anyone should do that, just saying it would make a good news article.
Why do they have to be fat?
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Old 02-12-18, 08:26 AM
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I am Famis---Fat Man in Spandex--and I am outraged by some of the same things you are .. . possibly .... But if I throw away my life performing an anti-cyclist exorcism, I am also old, so less lost .... let the young, lean guys do the centuries .... let the old, fat guys sacrifice themselves for the greater good.

Nothing serious in either post, in case you might have missed that ....
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Old 02-12-18, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by eja_ bottecchia View Post
Why do they have to be fat?
I often ask myself ... "Why do I have to be fat?"

It's so unfair .... The laws of physics and chemistry and physiology can't be broken, but the laws about road use get broken all the time.

If i lived in California, I could start a referendum outlawing weight gain caused of eating more than I burn. (Just like your tax laws .... )
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Old 02-12-18, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
I often ask myself ... "Why do I have to be fat?"

It's so unfair .... The laws of physics and chemistry and physiology can't be broken, but the laws about road use get broken all the time.

If i lived in California, I could start a referendum outlawing weight gain caused of eating more than I burn. (Just like your tax laws .... )
In the Nanny State, aka Jerry’s Kalifornia, such a measure has a high likelihood of passing.
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Old 02-12-18, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
I am Famis---Fat Man in Spandex--and I am outraged by some of the same things you are .. . possibly .... But if I throw away my life performing an anti-cyclist exorcism, I am also old, so less lost .... let the young, lean guys do the centuries .... let the old, fat guys sacrifice themselves for the greater good.

Nothing serious in either post, in case you might have missed that ....
I got it.
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Old 02-12-18, 11:48 AM
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According to this article, the driver is already out on bail - $75K:

https://www.desertsun.com/story/news...say/327483002/
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Old 02-12-18, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by eja_ bottecchia View Post
Nope.

Every day I prosecute individuals who commit crimes while driving with either a suspended or even revoked license.

In California you put your money down, buy a car, and no one cares if you have a license or insurance.

If you get caught driving with a suspended or revoked license, you get a slap on the wrist and are sent back out on the streets.

Community service? Really? What sort of community service will make up for killing an innocent human being whose only crime was having the temerity to ride a bike (like all of us here do) on the open road.

Restitution? Again, no dice. Unless the criminal has money, or wins El Gordo in the lottery, he will never be able to pay restitution.

For many, or most of these crimes, the only solution is to lock the criminals for as long as possible. Granted, There is rehabilitation involved here. The only objective is to keep the community as safe as possible, for as long as possible, from these individuals.

BTW, the California prison system recently changed its name from California Department of Corrections to California Department of Corrections AND Rehabilitation. I am still laughing over the last part.
In many places, they slap a person's wrist harder for parole or probation violations. So, as part of parole, no guns, etc... and if you get caught, one goes right back into prison. Not driving could easily be put in as a parole or probation stipulation, with serious consequences... if they wished.

I believe the judges have some leeway on parole and probation stipulations, but it could also be written into law if the states chose to do so.

Restitution may never be enough. But, it will be nothing as long as he is behind bars costing taxpayers gobs of money.

I didn't see much info on the web about the driver other than being 21, and driving a 12 year old car too fast. One might guess that he has Latin American descent from the name. Otherwise, there is no info whether he is college educated, working, etc. Oh, add that he was able to come up with $75,000 in bail in a couple of days. Anyway, I don't think one could conclude that he has no money, and no earning potential, and never will have earning potential.
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Old 02-12-18, 12:32 PM
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That is really sad, my buddy and I have some awesome paved bike paths around here so we can stay off the road...for that exact reason.
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Old 02-12-18, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
Oh, add that he was able to come up with $75,000 in bail in a couple of days. Anyway, I don't think one could conclude that he has no money, and no earning potential, and never will have earning potential.
Experience says, parents of ne'er -do-well kids sometimes put up their houses or cars to secure a bail bond.

With our assurances of a swift and speedy trial, most defendants do over a year in jail before that swift and speedy trial .... and if the parents own Anything, they might prefer to have the kid not getting raped.

No way to know if he himself has anything or ever will ... but the reason for keeping people locked up is often more lack of judgement than lack of earning potential. If the kid is stupid enough to kill .... keep him off the streets.

The number of people who hurt or kill someone after a couple DUIs, driving drunk and without a license ..... Yeah, great that there are more charges at the next trial, not so great that a couple more people have been crippled or killed because no one wanted to "inconvenience" the guy or prevent him from getting a job.

I managed car-free for a long time ... if he can't find a job where he is now, let him move.

Remember back in the day, if you lived in a really depressed area with no jobs ... you went somewhere else, because you wanted to eat and have a roof?

That dude can take a bus to any city and spend two weeks going to every restaurant applying as a dish washer. After two weeks, at least one dishwasher will have quit and he can get started. If he is any worth at all, he can start working his way up.

I went into one restaurant as a one-night fill-in for a lazy friend who wanted to stay home and party. I was a line cook when I left---learned on the job. I went to the next restaurant as a dishwasher, and left as assistant manager. All on a bicycle.

And I didn't kill anybody. This guy gets and deserves No sympathy.

Compassion? Yeah. I understand the kind of issues people can have. I beat enough mental, emotional, and substance use issues to understand ... but "Oh, give the poor lad a break" sympathy?

And I ask you this---if your significant other was killed by some idiot, would you feel all good if you went to a restaurant a year later, the first time out since your loss .... urged out by friends saying,. "Live a little, it is time," and there, wearing a nice suit with a trim haircut and good shoes, was the guy who killed your significant other, shift manager, helping seat couples and resolve difficulties between the front and back of the house .... the guy who pleaded poverty and is sending you 23 dollars a month in restitution, all happy as can be and loving life .... and if you heard him bragging about the fast, powerful car he just got on credit .... would the restitution he was paying make everything alright with you?

Last edited by Maelochs; 02-12-18 at 01:42 PM.
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Old 02-12-18, 02:03 PM
  #22  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
Experience says, parents of ne'er -do-well kids sometimes put up their houses or cars to secure a bail bond.

With our assurances of a swift and speedy trial, most defendants do over a year in jail before that swift and speedy trial .... and if the parents own Anything, they might prefer to have the kid not getting raped.

No way to know if he himself has anything or ever will ... but the reason for keeping people locked up is often more lack of judgement than lack of earning potential. If the kid is stupid enough to kill .... keep him off the streets.

The number of people who hurt or kill someone after a couple DUIs, driving drunk and without a license ..... Yeah, great that there are more charges at the next trial, not so great that a couple more people have been crippled or killed because no one wanted to "inconvenience" the guy or prevent him from getting a job.

I managed car-free for a long time ... if he can't find a job where he is now, let him move.

Remember back in the day, if you lived in a really depressed area with no jobs ... you went somewhere else, because you wanted to eat and have a roof?

That dude can take a bus to any city and spend two weeks going to every restaurant applying as a dish washer. After two weeks, at least one dishwasher will have quit and he can get started. If he is any worth at all, he can start working his way up.

I went into one restaurant as a one-night fill-in for a lazy friend who wanted to stay home and party. I was a line cook when I left---learned on the job. I went to the next restaurant as a dishwasher, and left as assistant manager. All on a bicycle.

And I didn't kill anybody. This guy gets and deserves No sympathy.

Compassion? Yeah. I understand the kind of issues people can have. I beat enough mental, emotional, and substance use issues to understand ... but "Oh, give the poor lad a break" sympathy?

And I ask you this---if your significant other was killed by some idiot, would you feel all good if you went to a restaurant a year later, the first time out since your loss .... urged out by friends saying,. "Live a little, it is time," and there, wearing a nice suit with a trim haircut and good shoes, was the guy who killed your significant other, shift manager, helping seat couples and resolve difficulties between the front and back of the house .... the guy who pleaded poverty and is sending you 23 dollars a month in restitution, all happy as can be and loving life .... and if you heard him bragging about the fast, powerful car he just got on credit .... would the restitution he was paying make everything alright with you?
Yeah..

But, if the parents could drop $75K in bond money... then they aren't completely in the poor house. So, one shouldn't conclude the kid is, or always will be. Of course, it also depends if that money was put up by a bondsman.

He was considered a "local". Is Palm Springs now considered the California Slums?

I don't really know what I would feel to see the "kid" in a restaurant. One might actually feel positive changes were done if one sees his bicycle parked out front, and he is sending $1000 a month in restitution... Quarter of his income? Half of his income? .... for the rest of his life.

Perhaps send him off to some driver's training courses, so he can share his experiences, and tell students first hand what it is like to have half of one's income not being one's own (without considering Uncle Sam ). Perhaps losing the right to vote, the right to travel, and never driving.
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Old 02-12-18, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
In many places, they slap a person's wrist harder for parole or probation violations. So, as part of parole, no guns, etc... and if you get caught, one goes right back into prison. Not driving could easily be put in as a parole or probation stipulation, with serious consequences... if they wished.

I believe the judges have some leeway on parole and probation stipulations, but it could also be written into law if the states chose to do so.

Restitution may never be enough. But, it will be nothing as long as he is behind bars costing taxpayers gobs of money.

I didn't see much info on the web about the driver other than being 21, and driving a 12 year old car too fast. One might guess that he has Latin American descent from the name. Otherwise, there is no info whether he is college educated, working, etc. Oh, add that he was able to come up with $75,000 in bail in a couple of days. Anyway, I don't think one could conclude that he has no money, and no earning potential, and never will have earning potential.
In California, under Jerry’s catch and release plan aka Court Re-alignment a violation of probation or parole gets a slap on the wrist. And you know that prohibition against owning weapons, that’s a joke. They keep getting caught, over and over and over again, possessing weapons...even while on probation or parole.

Latin American descent? I have no idea what the heck you are trying to say.

Posting bail is not that hard in California. And it will get even easier to get out with no bail.

So earning potential should be a consideration? So if Musk kills someone while driving a Tesla he should get a pass...because he can pay up?

I always get a good laugh when I read the opinions of folks who are not directly involved with the criminal legal system. Funny, often wrong, and mostly scary.
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Old 02-12-18, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by eja_ bottecchia View Post
So earning potential should be a consideration? So if Musk kills someone while driving a Tesla he should get a pass...because he can pay up?

I always get a good laugh when I read the opinions of folks who are not directly involved with the criminal legal system. Funny, often wrong, and mostly scary.
Oh, you mean the Tesla that has already killed somebody because it couldn't tell the difference between a truck and the sky? That Tesla?

And that will only be the tip of the iceberg. There will be more.

And, restitution doesn't bring back someone's life. But, it is also part of penitence.
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Old 02-12-18, 04:08 PM
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atbman
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I'm a little surprised at the references to "21 year old kid". He's an adult (in law), not a kid. A stupid adult, not a stupid kid. And should be treated as such.
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