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Don't pass on the right (vid: cyclist in BL right hooked)

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Don't pass on the right (vid: cyclist in BL right hooked)

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Old 03-12-18, 11:16 AM
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Ninety5rpm
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Don't pass on the right (vid: cyclist in BL right hooked)

Yeah, the motorist should have looked, should have slowed earlier and merged into the bike lane behind the cyclist, etc, etc.

But the fact of the matter is that motorists turn right like this all the time, and it's only prudent to slow down and not pass a car like this [EDIT: which is approaching a place where it might turn right] on the right. The motorist started slowing, obviously to turn right, at least as early :32. That's the moment you look back and plan to pull out into the lane in preparation to stay behind the car, or pass it on the left. This guy just kept going, however, at 20+ mph for 6 more seconds, colliding at :38.

He's lucky.

https://www.local10.com/news/bicycli...r-in-bike-lane

Last edited by Ninety5rpm; 03-14-18 at 05:25 PM. Reason: Added EDIT clarification note in []
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Old 03-12-18, 11:31 AM
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Milton Keynes
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The driver should have checked their mirrors and signaled, but I agree if you see a car slowing down, beware. You can't always tell what a driver is planning to do, especially if they forget their turn signal.
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Old 03-12-18, 12:42 PM
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Absolutely, anytime you ride past a driveway on a bike lane be aware of cars that may be turning right just like that. There's a section of a 6-lane road that I use which as a bike lane. Fortunately for me there are only a couple of parking lot driveways to contend with. But always vigilant.
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Old 03-12-18, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Milton Keynes View Post
The driver should have checked their mirrors and signaled, but I agree if you see a car slowing down, beware. You can't always tell what a driver is planning to do, especially if they forget their turn signal.
The problem is that bike lanes are similar to shoulders, you can't blame drivers for treating them the same, and shoulders are not supposed to have traffic. Legally the cyclist has the right of way if int a bike lane, but not if it's a shoulder, even though geometrically shoulders and bike lanes are often virtually identical. Expecting motorists to always do the right thing is a recipe for disaster.
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Old 03-12-18, 03:39 PM
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Milton Keynes
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The only bike lane I've ever used was at one end of a rail trail in a largish city, and the bike lanes were in the middle of the street rather than on the sides. Not sure if they thought that was safer or if it was because that's how the original RR tracks ran.
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Old 03-12-18, 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Ninety5rpm View Post
The problem is that bike lanes are similar to shoulders, you can't blame drivers for treating them the same, and shoulders are not supposed to have traffic. Legally the cyclist has the right of way if int a bike lane, but not if it's a shoulder, even though geometrically shoulders and bike lanes are often virtually identical. Expecting motorists to always do the right thing is a recipe for disaster.
Perhaps this is reasonable, but that doesn't excuse the motorist from failing to signal their turn. That's just lazy, sloppy driving, and with full video evidence, that motorist's insurer is likely to cave (otherwise, I suspect the cyclist would have a tough time getting compensation). Now the cyclist can simply state that they did not anticipate that the motorist would turn because they were expecting a turn indicator.

But I agree that to protect yourself, a cyclist should never expect drivers to always do what's predictable. This is a good video to demonstrate what to watch for when overtaking on the right and how to spot a possible right hook. Thanks for sharing.
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Old 03-12-18, 11:04 PM
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Granted the cyclist did just about everything wrong but I can't really blame him. You just don't realize that drivers will pull that until you've seen it, up close and personal.
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Old 03-13-18, 12:56 AM
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Branko D
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Originally Posted by Ninety5rpm View Post
The problem is that bike lanes are similar to shoulders, you can't blame drivers for treating them the same, and shoulders are not supposed to have traffic. Legally the cyclist has the right of way if int a bike lane, but not if it's a shoulder, even though geometrically shoulders and bike lanes are often virtually identical. Expecting motorists to always do the right thing is a recipe for disaster.
Pretty much!

After a long time of driving, when I took up cycling I was initially quite uncomfortable passing cars on the right. A few close calls later I figured out that I was rightly so, because it's something drivers simply don't expect and don't check for (and we don't have bike lanes on the roads, as a rule - when we do have bike lanes they're on the sidewalks which I generally ignore and just ride on the road).

If it's a slow city street I just pass them on the left, sprinting and impersonating a motorcycle. In some situations (large trucks, especially) I find it safest to simply ride with the traffic, keeping behind the truck and being a little patient and a little bit slower, perhaps....
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Old 03-13-18, 02:34 AM
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Old 03-13-18, 02:41 AM
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Old 03-13-18, 04:35 AM
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Driving a car you don't expect to be overtaken on the right. Biker riding ebike going too fast.
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Old 03-13-18, 08:03 AM
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Oftentimes, the driver has big blind spot to deal with. They look back and don't see a bike, because it's hiding in the blind spot. Cars nowadays have little windows and big blindspot, due to structure strength requirement. I don't think it's anybody's fault. It's just an accident. Both persons should have been more careful. Driver should have double checked. Cyclist should have slow down. I understand the urge of cyclists to maintain momentum. But it's not a race.

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Old 03-13-18, 08:43 AM
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mr_bill
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Originally Posted by mtb_addict View Post
Oftentimes, the driver has big blind spot to deal with. They look back and don't see a bike, because it's hiding in the blind spot.
Complete rubbish. They didn't look. THEY DID NOT LOOK.

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Old 03-13-18, 09:05 AM
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Sorry, didn't listen to the video. Music is *NOT* the radio edit. (NSFW, turn audio down)


-mr. bill

Last edited by mr_bill; 03-13-18 at 12:48 PM. Reason: NSFW warning
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Old 03-13-18, 10:07 AM
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An E-Bike?

So, the E-Biker is keeping up with traffic while riding in the bike lane.

If one can keep up with traffic, one should ride like one is in an imaginary box...

BikeBox.jpg

One can either ride in the lane, or to the right of the lane (which gives one a bit of an extra buffer for sudden stops).

Pass to the right approaching stop lights if one wishes, assuming cars are stopped, and not crossing across one's lane. But, for ordinary riding, maintain the box. The car to the left slows, then slow down a bit. Car speeds up, then speed up.

What if the car to the left had stopped for a pedestrian or animal or some other road obstruction, and the E-Cyclist goes flying by?

Of course, it is rare that I can keep up with traffic. The one place I do it most commonly, the bike lane ends just before I can start keeping up with traffic, so it forces me into the right side of the traffic lane.

I do catch up with cars stopped at lights while I'm in a bike lane, and watch those at the front of the line very carefully, as well as take care while passing if the line starts moving (at which point, it may be good to recreate one's imaginary bike box, and move with the cars once again).
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Old 03-13-18, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by mtb_addict View Post
Oftentimes, the driver has big blind spot to deal with. They look back and don't see a bike, because it's hiding in the blind spot. Cars nowadays have little windows and big blindspot, due to structure strength requirement. I don't think it's anybody's fault. It's just an accident. Both persons should have been more careful. Driver should have double checked. Cyclist should have slow down. I understand the urge of cyclists to maintain momentum. But it's not a race.
Are some of you people kidding? The driver didn't signal. Period. That, right there, is enough to make it 100% the driver's fault. Still would have been the driver's fault, even if they did signal, but perhaps then you could admonish the rider somewhat.

That many riders would have slowed down in that situation is fine, but this is merely being cautious in anticipation of a driver doing something improper. A lack of precaution does not equal fault.


Also, the poor visibility of newer cars is mostly down to design choices rather than structural issues. Smaller windows look cool.
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Old 03-13-18, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by robertorolfo View Post
Are some of you people kidding? The driver didn't signal. Period. That, right there, is enough to make it 100% the driver's fault. Still would have been the driver's fault, even if they did signal, but perhaps then you could admonish the rider somewhat.

That many riders would have slowed down in that situation is fine, but this is merely being cautious in anticipation of a driver doing something improper. A lack of precaution does not equal fault.

Also, the poor visibility of newer cars is mostly down to design choices rather than structural issues. Smaller windows look cool.
Yep... the driver is at fault. Crossing a lane of "traffic" without signaling and ascertaining it is clear.

Nonetheless, the driver did slow down before the turn and brake lights did turn on. A cyclist that was riding defensively should have been alerted to these changes and should have also slowed. Even if the driver wasn't turning, one should determine the reason they slowed or stopped before passing.

One thing that I was wondering about was doing a quick right turn evasive action. Many driveways have ridges at the entry way that could make such a turn dangerous if done at too shallow of an angle.

Visibility with respect to vehicle design only helps if a driver cares to look. I learned to always turn my head and look while merging lanes or changing lanes. However, I'm not sure how I would have approached turning from the right most lane across a bike lane that I believed was empty. A lot of drivers depend almost exclusively on their mirrors now.
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Old 03-13-18, 11:15 AM
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Old 03-13-18, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by mr_bill View Post
Complete rubbish. They didn't look. THEY DID NOT LOOK.

-mr. bill
Agree. They didn't look. They should've looked, but they didn't. But my point is this: wrong as it clearly is - it's typical for right-turning motorists in that situation to not look.

Same with the turn signal. Yes, they didn't use the turn signal, and they should have. They were wrong for not using the turn signal. But my point is this - it's not unusual for people to fail to use their turn signals; it's not prudent for one's safety to rely on proper use of turn signals.

The highly unusual incidents notwithstanding - like those in the videos you posted above - MOST right hooks are trivial for the cyclist to avoid. Yes, they're trivial for the motorist to avoid too, but from the perspective of a cyclist safety issue, a cyclist safety practice - don't pass cars on the right that can and might be turned right. There might be some edge case that will still get you, but odds are that won't happen to you (and other practices or just awareness might protect you from those), but simply not passing on the right in these situations will protect you from the vast majority of right hooks that do get cyclists, like the one depicted in the video I posted in the OP.

Last edited by Ninety5rpm; 03-13-18 at 11:22 AM. Reason: wording tweak
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Old 03-13-18, 12:32 PM
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MOST motorists are competent.
MOST motorists look before changing lanes.
MOST motorists look before turning left or right.

THAT is what is typical.

What is "typical" is *YOUR* response.

Imagine what your response would be if in the first two "highly unusual incidents" the victims were people on bikes.

And in the San Diego "highly unusual incident" - feel free to go to 8th Ave and C St. They've certainly had to rework that intersection in response to the "highly unusual incident" with the trolley. Which keeps happening over, and over, and over again.

Car, Van, SUV, Ambulance, even a Sherrif's Deputy, crashes into The Trolley is almost a standing headline for the evening news. The only thing unusual about these "highly unusual incidents" is that they are being caught on video.

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Old 03-13-18, 12:33 PM
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I suspect purely from a "fault" standpoint, the fault would lie with the motorist.
However...
I try to never put myself into a position on a bicycle where IF a driver does something totally boneheaded and stupid, I have no where to escape.
I always leave myself an "out". Or try to anyway.

And so, while the driver may be "at fault", this bicyclist screwed up IMO by putting himself in that position in the first place and thus the "blame" falls on him.
Again IMO.
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Old 03-13-18, 02:36 PM
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Unfortunately around here (Orange County, SoCal), I'd guess that only 30% of drivers consistently use their turn indicators - that's the drivers' bad. Also unfortunately, I see way too many cyclists pass drivers on the right even when they are signaling a right turn.
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Old 03-13-18, 05:04 PM
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It was pretty difficult to tell whether the car slowed down and had its brake lights come on much before the driver made his right turn. I couldn't notice any discernible reduction in speed or any change in the position of his wheels until the car was almost up to the driveway. It looked like the driver may have arrived at the driveway without being aware until the last minute that he needed to turn.

If we're placing blame, the driver was clearly at fault for not signaling, not merging into the bike lane before turning and not looking before he turned. This type of activity is clearly criminal. He could have killed someone. The "victim" seemed far too passive and easy-going.

As for the cyclist, it's not clear to me whether he did anything wrong at all. Most seem to blame him for passing on the right. If there was adequate notice that the car had slowed or if brake lights were visible for a reasonable period of time, clearly he shouldn't have tried to pass on the right because of the risk the driver was slowing for a turn. On the other hand, if the driver didn't slow until he was almost at his turn and there was no signal, the bike rider might not have had any reason not to pass on the right.

In Massachusetts, passing on the right while in a bike lane is permitted. Doing so where there is frequent right-turning traffic (e.g. intersections, shopping centers) is often unsafe. But choosing not to do so just because there are a bunch of residential driveways seems excessively cautious. As long as the cyclist is highly alert to what the cars are doing, passing on the right in such circumstances seems reasonable.

One other issue for discussion is the e-bike. Did the e-bike rider develop the skills he needed on the road to be traveling at 20 mph? Some of those e-bikes can get up to 28 mph or even faster. It's just possible that this technology exceeds our readiness to cope with its implications. E-bikes are great in that they enable weaker riders to keep up with their friends. It's not clear though that less experienced riders should be traveling on the roads at 20 mph or more.
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Old 03-13-18, 05:17 PM
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What's right and what is safe are two different things.
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Old 03-13-18, 05:18 PM
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Portland's bike boxes
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