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What Not To Do With Close Passers

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What Not To Do With Close Passers

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Old 05-13-18, 06:38 PM
  #51  
CB HI
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Originally Posted by AlexanderLS View Post
Ultimately that depends on if the motorist is stupid enough to stick around and then talk to the police.
In the successful case you had, the motorist likely incriminated him/herself.
Wrong and wrong. They did not stick around, I got plate numbers and IDed from photo line ups. I was a credible witness while they were not. So in a couple cases their lawyer got them to agree to the full charge (I pushed hard to the prosecutor for all or nothing - no plea) with a request of deferred sentence. But the somewhat mentally ill guy went to trial (prosecutor said it was unlikely he would be convicted), my testimony convinced the judge and he was convicted.

What gets these guys spun up the most is a request that they attend anger management classes.



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Old 05-13-18, 11:45 PM
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Originally Posted by AlexanderLS View Post
That is a travesty of justice. In a court of law the individual should be proven guilty beyond a reasonable shadow of doubt. If the evidence consisted of only your testimony and the defendant never admitted to anything, the defendant shouldn't have been convicted. A single individuals testimony is not equal to evidence.

I'm glad I don't live wherever you live. It sounds like a terrible place to live. Where any person can make up any ridiculous thing about me and I'd end up convicted. What a terrible place to live.
Is it reasonable to expect a person to hunt some stranger down and make a false accusation with zero motive, when the defendant can't supply anything more than "uh uh" in response? Not really.
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Old 05-14-18, 12:16 AM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by AlexanderLS View Post
That is a travesty of justice. In a court of law the individual should be proven guilty beyond a reasonable shadow of doubt. If the evidence consisted of only your testimony and the defendant never admitted to anything, the defendant shouldn't have been convicted. A single individuals testimony is not equal to evidence.

I'm glad I don't live wherever you live. It sounds like a terrible place to live. Where any person can make up any ridiculous thing about me and I'd end up convicted. What a terrible place to live.
If I'm not mistake it depends on the type of case, as the aforementioned may apply in criminal cases. However, in non criminal/civil cases judgements can be made based solely on other factors such as credibility, and burden of truth. CB HI's testimony likely satisfied that requirement.
Originally Posted by Oneder View Post
Is it reasonable to expect a person to hunt some stranger down and make a false accusation with zero motive, when the defendant can't supply anything more than "uh uh" in response? Not really.
Enter counsel.
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Old 05-14-18, 01:28 AM
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There are so many times I wanted to do what that cyclist did. But I know better and never acted on my urges.

Becoming a road rager on a bike doesn't make me any better than those other road ragers in cars.
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Old 05-14-18, 08:39 AM
  #55  
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Sure are a lot of people on this thread re-inventing the flash flag.
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Old 05-14-18, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by AlexanderLS View Post
That is a travesty of justice. In a court of law the individual should be proven guilty beyond a reasonable shadow of doubt. If the evidence consisted of only your testimony and the defendant never admitted to anything, the defendant shouldn't have been convicted. A single individuals testimony is not equal to evidence.

I'm glad I don't live wherever you live. It sounds like a terrible place to live. Where any person can make up any ridiculous thing about me and I'd end up convicted. What a terrible place to live.
Sounds like your parents sat you in front of the TV watching NCIS and Bones your entire childhood and you believed it all.

Believe it or not, judges have gotten pretty good at telling who is lying and who is telling the truth. In a vindictive move, my Hit&Run driver filed for a protection order to get back at me and to try and force me to pay for most of Mr. Hit&Run's legal fees. I proved Mr. Hit&Run committed perjury in his criminal case, destroying his credibility in his protection order request. So he ended up paying even more legal fees.

So I have had false accusations made against me and I watched the legal system work properly.
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Old 05-14-18, 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by AlexanderLS View Post
An insult, how mature. Ignored.
Individuals who resort to insults do so because their counterpoints lack potency. It is an act of the desperate. My ignore list is getting larger, I feel no loss. The individuals like you, have nothing worthwhile to contribute.

Proving a person is guilty beyond a reasonable shadow of a doubt is how the legal system is supposed to work. If a judge is forced to make arbitrary judgements on the integrity of witnesses for a conviction, the burden of proof never was met. People make up things and get people convicted every day. I've no respect for the guilty until proven innocent joke of a judicial system we now have. It doesn't change the fact that your courts down there are clearly far worse off. If it takes only one witness for proof, your area is just bad.
Most convicted murderers get convicted without any eyewitnesses. If there is a witness to a crime and there is no reason to think that person is lying then that person is going to get convicted. Otherwise there simply would not be any convictions, ever.

Now if your ex wife claims you beat her every day, but there are not even any bruises and you are going through a divorce that case is not likely to get a conviction.

It's like in other thread when someone said life in prison for murder is cruel and unusual. Those terms don't mean whatever people think they do, they have specific meaning within the law. If people did not get punishment they didn't like it wouldn't be punishment, and unusual means that it falls out side of established guidelines. So a judge can't decide to have someone beaten to death for defamation charges, but he can definitely sentence a murderer to the death penalty so long as his state's sentencing guidelines allow for this.
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Old 05-14-18, 07:27 PM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by AlexanderLS View Post
Most convictions are drug convictions. So yea, but there is actual evidence. Most murders go unsolved. Murder convictions do rely heavily on actual evidence. Given enough time, many murders do incriminate themselves. The guilt gets to them.

One witness should never be enough. In most areas, one witness is not enough. Petty people can lie and make up stuff for the most insane reasons. There have been guys accused of **** because they didn't want to date said victim. The reasoning of a liar is unfathomable, but they exist, in multitudes.
Sure but it is situational, too, what is reasonable and what is not. If some girl comes out and says her bf did something 10 years after the fact that case is kind of bogus and ridiculous. Especially if that person has a bone to pick for some reason, such as a personal reason, political, or as a way to get at someone with deep pockets. A lot of people don't like to hear it but I think of Cosby, suddenly now there is a big girl power movement that goes way beyond feminine issues and Cosby just so happens to be one of the most conservative celebrities left alive. Kind of suspicious that this guy is suddenly a target all these years later. Since there is zero proof to say he made any assault of any kind and plenty of reason to make it up, it is alarming that the guy got convicted. He basically got convicted by twitter, and since it was conducted in a sort of mob fashion we have no idea how to determine if the #metoo people are just jumping on the bandwagon for a political agenda, to get money out of the guy, or simply because they have a personal grudge.

OTOH an out of the blue assault accusation by a complete stranger leading to pointing the finger at the assaulter is an open and shut case. You can tell fairly well immediately after an assault of that kind if there has been an assault or not as well. It is not reasonable at all to think this is a false accusation, but if the person is famous or has some past history with the accuser or there is no evidence of any assault in the first place then it is another story.

As for needing multiple witnesses, sure in places like Turkey. In Turkey things like that are virtually decriminalized and even if they got convicted they won't have any punishment worth mentioning. You basically can never get that kind of evidence of a crime like murder or assault or even just robbery.

As for 'evidence' that is much less reliable than an eye witness (assuming they identify the right person in the first place and really know who it was). You are implicitly trusting not just that the evidence finder is being honest and doing his job properly, but that every single person who ever touched or came into contact with it was both honest and did not make any kind of mistake, and that the evidence was not really planted by someone else in the car or household so they themselves would not get implicated or something like that.
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Old 05-15-18, 08:03 AM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by Daniel4 View Post
There are so many times I wanted to do what that cyclist did. But I know better and never acted on my urges.

Becoming a road rager on a bike doesn't make me any better than those other road ragers in cars.
^This^ It's very simple really.
Unfortunately "reason" and "common sense" isn't that common any longer and we are willing to justify OUR actions no matter how unjustifiable. Wrong is wrong, simple as that.
However, all reason is lost on the vengeance is mine and justified crowd, and all the Perry Mason wannabees.
This thread makes me laugh...though it is a sad laugh at what we have become.
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Old 05-15-18, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Daniel4 View Post
There are so many times I wanted to do what that cyclist did. But I know better and never acted on my urges.

Becoming a road rager on a bike doesn't make me any better than those other road ragers in cars.
Yeah. It's called being a "grown up". There's no excuse for acting this way. Two wrongs don't make a right.

People here don't seem to realize we're the minority. When someone, who is a member of your "group" (your religion, race, culture, nationality etc.), does something bad, the tendency is to excuse it as that person being a bad apple, or having some issues. When someone, who isn't a member of your "group", does something bad, the tendency is to assume that person is representative of all members of that particular demographic. It's not right or fair at all, but that's the way the world tends to be.

As a result of this, any time a cyclist does something wrong, in the eyes of the majority (i.e. the people who's votes will determine what laws get passed and what infrastructure gets built) cyclists look bad. Again, not fair, but that's the way it is. This guy didn't do his fellow cyclists any favours.
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Old 05-15-18, 02:16 PM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by AlexanderLS View Post
Yes, all the laws that are left to a public vote

Actual lawmakers have a bit more common sense than to judge a whole group based off a minority few. I'd venture to guess the overwhelming majority of people older than 30 have enough sense to know that mess ups like this are not representative of cyclists as a whole. Most probably even realize this event is not really representative of that cyclist as a whole, he is likely very respectful 99.99% of the time.
I take it you've been in a coma for the last few years and haven't been paying attention to the politics in your country.
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Old 05-15-18, 08:42 PM
  #62  
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Originally Posted by AlexanderLS View Post
Actual lawmakers have a bit more common sense than to judge a whole group based off a minority few.
Not from my experience.
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Old 05-15-18, 09:57 PM
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Originally Posted by AlexanderLS View Post
An insult, how mature. Ignored.
Not an insult, just a valid observation of today's society and your post that you think eyewitness testimony is worthless and only those cases with NCIS type evidence should be prosecuted.

Originally Posted by AlexanderLS View Post
Proving a person is guilty beyond a reasonable shadow of a doubt is how the legal system is supposed to work. If a judge is forced to make arbitrary judgements on the integrity of witnesses for a conviction, the burden of proof never was met. People make up things and get people convicted every day. I've no respect for the guilty until proven innocent joke of a judicial system we now have. It doesn't change the fact that your courts down there are clearly far worse off. If it takes only one witness for proof, your area is just bad. Enjoy the volcanoes
Your post continues to show how off base you are by your intentional misstatement - it is "beyond a reasonable doubt" and NOT "beyond a reasonable shadow of a doubt" as you falsely claim.

I am sad for the subsequent victims of your judicial system that ignores reasonable eyewitness testimony and lets criminals off to offend again.
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Old 05-15-18, 11:07 PM
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The driver said: "I came close to him but in a controlled manner close enough to pass by and keep going". Many times this type of "controlled close passing" is very rude and careless no matter how "controlled" the driver was. I prefer loud honking to warn me without actually squeezing past me and knocking my handlebar mirror out of place or giving me a start.

Sounds like worse punishment than many drivers got for killing cyclists
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Old 05-15-18, 11:09 PM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by dedhed View Post
Not from my experience.
Sadly, despite all there education and experience, they can be as myopic and judgemental as the rest of society. Besides, our criminal justice system is a travesty, and in desperate need of a overhauled from the top down.
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Old 05-16-18, 04:27 AM
  #66  
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Originally Posted by vol View Post
The driver said: "I came close to him but in a controlled manner close enough to pass by and keep going". Many times this type of "controlled close passing" is very rude and careless no matter how "controlled" the driver was

I prefer loud honking to warn me without actually squeezing past me and knocking my handlebar mirror out of place or giving me a start.
Sounds like worse punishment than many drivers got for killing cyclists
I participated in this discussion in the thread, “PR to shame those who menace weaker users?”
Originally Posted by JeffOYB View Post
The USA sense of macho has perhaps had some good aspects -- that advertisers appeal to -- but it has also always included "cowardly victimizing of the weaker."

It would be an easy national PR campaign to expose the cowardly evil of startling, squeezing, buzzing, honking, hassling road-users who are weaker. Maybe a bit like the old 'crying indian.'

Could that have a helpful effect? We're not used to that kind of embarrassing exposure of our values here in the USA. It would embarrass many. Could it change any? Or would there be a backlash to protect our "right to assault the weaker"?
See this long-running current thread on A&S, “Hit and Run caught on GoPro - Driver Charged
Originally Posted by wphamilton View Post
My knee jerk reaction was no, but I do think it would help...

Secondly there is a small but real population who have no sense of empathy, no concern for the well-being of others, and who are only held in check by the known consequences of violating social constraints.

I don't know if you can artificially create such a thing, or bring it to the surface of public awareness by analogy, but it's worth a try.
Originally Posted by Jim from Boston View Post
I have those exact thoughts whenever I am passed, even when not too close by motorist who does not slow down or move over slightly, just as an indication that they notice me.

I always think those self-absorbed cagers are only restrained by the thought of scratching their cars, or the hassle of filing police reports.

My only satisfactory retribution is to give them my previously-described Bicyclist Curse. (I repeatedly jab my pointed right index finger in their direction, while shouting an accusatory, ”You, you, you…”). The possibility of metaphysical retribution is more satisfying than the middle finger.

I do also bestow Bicyclist Blessings on drivers who show even a modicum of respect, with a wave of the hand. ….
Otherwise,
Originally Posted by Jim from Boston View Post
…How to get the message out? I find threads about what to say to a driver futile, since these are brief, often emotion laden encounters, and often the cyclist makes a bad impression.

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Old 05-16-18, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by AlexanderLS View Post
Actual lawmakers have a bit more common sense than to judge a whole group based off a minority few.
Wut? You been under a rock lately or in some other dimension?
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Old 05-16-18, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by AlexanderLS View Post
Actual lawmakers have a bit more common sense than to judge a whole group based off a minority few.
WHAT? A TON of laws get made strictly for a minority few. The key is that the minority has to be either A) noisy and without noisy opposition, or B) rich.
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Old 05-16-18, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by AlexanderLS View Post
You deliberately took my quote out of context. I was saying that the lawmakers are not going to make restrictive laws just because of some video about one persons mess up. They are not going to take away bicycle rights just because of this video.
No, they're going to make laws that make voters happy. Voters whose opinions are swayed by things like this video. The former mayor of my city campaigned on ending the "war on cars" in order to appeal to this very demographic. Needless to say, there wasn't much cycling infrastructure built while he was in power.
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Old 05-16-18, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by AlexanderLS View Post
Actual lawmakers have a bit more common sense
What planet are you from?
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Old 05-16-18, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by AlexanderLS View Post
You deliberately took my quote out of context. I was saying that the lawmakers are not going to make restrictive laws just because of some video about one persons mess up. They are not going to take away bicycle rights just because of this video.
With all the comments on your post, it is more like your post was poorly written, but you choose to ignore that.
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Old 05-17-18, 02:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Milton Keynes View Post
What planet are you from?
Let not exaggerate. They at least start off with good intentions. Even if they don't stay that way for long.
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Old 05-17-18, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by KraneXL View Post
Let not exaggerate. They at least start off with good intentions. Even if they don't stay that way for long.
I don't want to get into politics here, but of course they don't stay that way for long, not once they learn how the good ol' boy network operates.
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Old 05-17-18, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Shimagnolo View Post
I believe he probably had a good reason to get upset, but he has totally screwed himself by committing assault and property damage.
Wear a camera, get it on video, and file a police report.
Exactly. He let the road raging fire rush to his head, and will likely be caught and charged. So dumb.

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Old 05-17-18, 11:09 AM
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Political rhetoric of the day comes and goes, but the basic laws generally stay the same. However the jurors ultimately define what a reasonable doubt is, which is why juror selection has such a huge effect on case outcome. That is why a lot of times you get a decision that seems to fly in the face of logic, because you can get a jury that has biases stacked in one direction strong enough to make them decide to be more harsh, or sometimes to be more lenient.

IE I personally feel cosby case should have been thrown out even if the actions he did may have been true, since there is absolutely zero ability to prove his guilt beyond any reasonable definition of reasonable doubt 20+ years later, or even that there was any sort of assault at all after all this time. I mean any guy on earth who made an ex gf mad could have her make up a story decades later and put him in jail if that is truly enough for a conviction - or even someone he never had anything to do with at all but who doesn't like his politics, or something else about him. Going in the other direction we constantly see cases of cyclists snuffed out but the jurors (who themselves are probably nearly all drivers but not cyclists) seem to give out only the most nominal punishments to these drivers except in the very worst cases.
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