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Licenses for E-Bikes?

Old 07-26-18, 02:11 PM
  #76  
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Originally Posted by mr_bill View Post
BTW, what you are looking for is "p = mv" not "f = ma." (Acceleration is 0 in your above scenario, you know, an object in motion stays in motion, no "f" required.)

And for what it's worth, in Massachusetts an e-bike is currently a "Motorized Bicycle."
The operator of a "Motorized Bicycle" must be 16 or over, and have a valid driver's license or learner's permit.
You can operate a "Motorized Bicycle" in a bike lane, but not on "off-street recreational bike paths."
You can't operate a "Motorized Bicycle" on roads where bicycles are prohibited.

Nothing in this year's bike bill (currently stalled in House Ways and Means) addresses e-bikes.

-mr. bill
I stand corrected. (Hey, Physics 101 was a long time ago.)

As I mentioned in my conversation with UniChris above, the current standard in Massachusetts (as opposed to the letter of the archaic law) is that if it looks like a bicycle and existing bicycle safety laws are observed, no one is going to hassle you on any road or MUP. This is certainly the case in my neighborhood, where local bike rental spots abound and most are discovering e-bikes.

I'm out on the MUP nearly every day. The fastest vehicles by far are ordinary road bikes being ridden by younger people in full spandex kit, and I have no problem with 'em (save perhaps envy). On any given day, I'll usually see two or three e-bikes, traveling at about the same rate of speed I am. The two things they all have in common is that the riders are at least my age, and they're all smiling.

Massachusetts law will catch up. E-bikes are dropping in price and you're seeing more mainstream bike makers (Trek, Specialized, etc.) coming out with electric assist models.
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Old 07-26-18, 02:18 PM
  #77  
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Originally Posted by KraneXL View Post
In a word: skill. It develops concomitantly alone with your capacity to surmount passages you normally would not have the physical strength to surmount without the aid of the e-bike motor.
Like Philippe Gilbert's skill? (Sorry...)

I've never seen an e-bike rider going appreciably faster than me, and I'm not a fast rider. I see lots of fast road bike riders, and lots of people without much skill, since the local MUP is a major tourist attraction and every town it goes through has at least two bike rental shops. Since we don't ask neophyte cyclists to be licensed, I don't see a good reason to require it of e-bike riders.
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Old 07-26-18, 02:31 PM
  #78  
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Originally Posted by Nightcap View Post
I've never seen an e-bike rider going appreciably faster than me, and I'm not a fast rider.
This speaks to why you completely fail to realize that there's an issue - apparently you're lucky enough to be in a place where there isn't one.

If you'd seen what typically happens on the streetscape here in NYC, you'd understand why people are upset about the illegal throttle electric motorcycles trying to pass themselves off as bikes.

Conversely, NYC's official bike share is getting some pedal assist models next month for an outer boro trial, and a second docked set for use across a bridge when a key subway section goes down for extended repairs.

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Old 07-26-18, 02:49 PM
  #79  
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Originally Posted by UniChris View Post
This speaks to why you completely fail to realize that there's an issue - apparently you're lucky enough to be in a place where there isn't one.

If you'd seen what typically happens on the streetscape here in NYC, you'd understand why people are upset about the illegal throttle electric motorcycles trying to pass themselves off as bikes.
I'm quite sure I would, Chris. NYC is hard enough to get around on foot. The closest thing I've got is the folks who tried (and fortunately failed) to have Provincetown consider electric scooters as e-bikes. P'town is a small drinking village with a fishing problem, and it's absolutely mobbed at this time of year.
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Old 07-26-18, 04:41 PM
  #80  
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When ebikes start their own trends and statistics for pedestrian, bicycle and ebike fatalities, licensing should start.
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Old 07-26-18, 05:04 PM
  #81  
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Exactly

Those of you who say "what problem" have been lucky or under exposed. In popular areas e-bike ridden by inepxerienced riders are a danger to themselves and others. The bike puts them in situations they have little experience in

Originally Posted by KraneXL View Post
I can see it getting a lot worse. You have too many people that can now easily maintain the higher speed without developing the necessary skills and responsibility to control it.
Exactly
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Old 07-26-18, 07:14 PM
  #82  
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Originally Posted by raria View Post
Those of you who say "what problem" have been lucky or under exposed. In popular areas e-bike ridden by inepxerienced riders are a danger to themselves and others. The bike puts them in situations they have little experience in


Exactly
But making e-bike riders fork over money for a license will fix everything********************????
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Old 07-26-18, 08:46 PM
  #83  
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Originally Posted by rydabent View Post
But making e-bike riders fork over money for a license will fix everything********************????
Not automatically, however

1) It imposes requirements on the vehicles themselves to be register-able, vs. whatever collection of features vs. price someone overseas thinks will make something sell well online. (It's the lack of these safety systems which likely make most of the current illegal fleet ineligible for moped registration)

2) Plates give something to track violations against

3) Operator licenses are something that can be revoked for repeated misdeeds

And again, pragmatically, this seems to be applicable to the throttle versions which are currently illegal to operate at all in many places. It seems like the pedal assist are (for better or worse) generally going to be categorized as ordinary bikes.

In other words, if you'll pretend to pedal on something vaguely human-scale, we'll overlook the weak motor. While if you want to ride a motorcycle, it needs vehicular safety systems and registration.

This is called "compromise"

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Old 07-26-18, 09:05 PM
  #84  
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Originally Posted by Nightcap View Post
I'm quite sure I would, Chris. NYC is hard enough to get around on foot. The closest thing I've got is the folks who tried (and fortunately failed) to have Provincetown consider electric scooters as e-bikes. P'town is a small drinking village with a fishing problem, and it's absolutely mobbed at this time of year.
Thanks for the laugh Nightcap, its been a big day. e-bikes in New Zealand are also getting big in numbers. I imagine I will have one when I'm older and grumpier than I am now. Must say on a couple of occasions on narrow cycle ways in Nelson, I have experienced on my cruising into town after a long ride in the country two frightening experiences involving e-bikes. I see the upright rider in the distance coming towards me, I slow down and move left, no change in momentum or line ahead of the torpedo like cyclist. I reluctantly stop and move over, still no change. An e-bike zooms past at what must be full throttle with a middle aged person staring steadfastly ahead. I know not just e-bikers would do this but whew, that was close. It was particularly scary as both bikes had rear vision mirrors on the end of their handlebars adding extra cms to their width these seemed a little like a chariot with knives attached to wheels in full flight. Then again I may have still been in my long ride zen place or had one gel too many.
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Old 07-28-18, 03:12 PM
  #85  
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do i need any license in Toronto ?
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Old 07-28-18, 04:31 PM
  #86  
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A License is not just a fee

There is a test of some sort associated with it either written or practical. The purpose would be to evaluate the person's ability to handle the situation the e-bike puts them in.

Originally Posted by rydabent View Post
But making e-bike riders fork over money for a license will fix everything********************????
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Old 07-28-18, 07:39 PM
  #87  
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Now... come on people... People NEED to UNDERSTAND the "difference" between an "E-Bike with a throttle" that can be used without pedaling, and go 28MPH with a 750Watt motor, and "E-Assisted" bike that MUST be pedalled to get anywhere, cuts out assist at 20MPH and only has a 350 Watt motor.. How hard is that to work through...???…. The problem here seems to be that people seem to have an agenda to make E-Bikes the same as E-Assisted bikes, for what ever reason... $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$...
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Old 07-29-18, 12:17 AM
  #88  
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Originally Posted by 350htrr View Post
Now... come on people... People NEED to UNDERSTAND the "difference" between an "E-Bike with a throttle" that can be used without pedaling, and go 28MPH with a 750Watt motor, and "E-Assisted" bike that MUST be pedalled to get anywhere, cuts out assist at 20MPH and only has a 350 Watt motor.. How hard is that to work through...???…. The problem here seems to be that people seem to have an agenda to make E-Bikes the same as E-Assisted bikes, for what ever reason... $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$...
My "agenda" is to keep bikes, bikes. A 100% people powered device. Its like soy milk or almond milk. Neither which is milk because milk comes from cows -- or at least an animal. No matter how you spin it, milk doesn't grow on trees.

Similarly, I don't want anything confusing the bike definition. As long as your bikes+ don't confuse or encroach on that definition or its facilities, I have no issue with them.
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Old 07-29-18, 02:52 AM
  #89  
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Not sure how current this info is:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_bicycle_laws

I agree with the idea that over a certain maximum speed and weight, a license is required.

Due to a recent rise in electric-bicycle-related accidents, caused mostly by inexperienced riders who ride on the wrong side of the road, run red lights, don't use headlights at night etc., the Chinese government plans to change the legal status of illegal bicycles so that vehicles with an unladen weight of 20 kg (44 lb) or more and a top speed of 30 km/h (19 mph) or more will require a motorcycle license to operate, while vehicles lighter than 20 kg (44 lb) and slower than 30 km/h can be ridden unlicensed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electr...hina_(Mainland)
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Old 07-29-18, 07:03 PM
  #90  
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Let me know when we become China.

No wait, that would be P&R,

All in a daze work at Arguments & Scandals.
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Old 08-03-18, 06:01 AM
  #91  
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I ride a scooter style e-bike specifically because it does not require a license. If my government demands a license then I will just get a scooter or moped. I am old and just like the slower pace of 20 mph/32kmh.
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Old 08-03-18, 09:37 AM
  #92  
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Originally Posted by Rollfast View Post
Let me know when we become China.

No wait, that would be P&R,

All in a daze work at Arguments & Scandals.
Location: Shanghai. So that would be now.
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Old 08-03-18, 12:36 PM
  #93  
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Originally Posted by 350htrr View Post
Now... come on people... People NEED to UNDERSTAND the "difference" between an "E-Bike with a throttle" that can be used without pedaling, and go 28MPH with a 750Watt motor, and "E-Assisted" bike that MUST be pedalled to get anywhere, cuts out assist at 20MPH and only has a 350 Watt motor.. How hard is that to work through...???. The problem here seems to be that people seem to have an agenda to make E-Bikes the same as E-Assisted bikes, for what ever reason... $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$...
People for Bikes, which is an industry funded group, is pushing model legislation across the U.S. It defines three classes of e-bikes. Class 1 is a pedal assist up to 20 MPH, Class 2 is throttle up to 20 MPH, and Class 3 is pedal assist to 28 MPH. It clarifies they are to be treated as bicycles and can use all bike infrastructure, on and off street.

People for Bikes
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Old 08-03-18, 03:04 PM
  #94  
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Originally Posted by tn_roadie View Post
People for Bikes, which is an industry funded group, is pushing model legislation across the U.S. It defines three classes of e-bikes. Class 1 is a pedal assist up to 20 MPH, Class 2 is throttle up to 20 MPH, and Class 3 is pedal assist to 28 MPH. It clarifies they are to be treated as bicycles and can use all bike infrastructure, on and off street.
That sounds horribly unworkable in a situation where they're more than infrequently present.

Of the three, only the lowest pedal assist has any sense of matching rider capability to machine capability. 20 MPH at the pull of a throttle on bike infrastructure isn't safe, nor is being assisted in getting up to 28.

Electrically assisted bikes should help people get to average bicyclist speeds - not match the fittest. Otherwise it's a motor vehicle and needs to be treated as such, not anything that can be legitimately passed off as a bicycle.
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Old 08-03-18, 03:43 PM
  #95  
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Originally Posted by work4bike View Post
I've heard a lot of people say that ebikes are a good thing because it gets people out and exercising, but all the people I've seen riding them don't really seem to be exercising

These things really seem to be doing the vast amount of work required to motor along at 20-mph.
I've got some acquaintances that I'd like to get out on a bike some more, but I've avoided the E-Bikes because I fear they would simply run it in throttle mode, and get no benefit, plus put themselves in danger.

I'd much prefer anything called a "bike (bicycle)" to require pedaling as a primary motive force. Augmenting the pedaling with power is fine. I.E. Electric Assist to be called an E-Bike.

Originally Posted by UniChris View Post
20 MPH at the pull of a throttle on bike infrastructure isn't safe, nor is being assisted in getting up to 28.

Electrically assisted bikes should help people get to average bicyclist speeds - not match the fittest. Otherwise it's a motor vehicle and needs to be treated as such, not anything that can be legitimately passed off as a bicycle.
I heard of a group of guys going for a bike tour around France averaging 25+ MPH. Sometimes faster. Shorter days, they rode as high as 35 MPH average.

Aren't those just average cyclist speeds... they did average over the entire rides.
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Old 08-03-18, 06:03 PM
  #96  
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Originally Posted by SHBR View Post
Not sure how current this info is:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_bicycle_laws

I agree with the idea that over a certain maximum speed and weight, a license is required.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electr...hina_(Mainland)
How is the weather?
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Old 08-03-18, 07:16 PM
  #97  
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
I've got some acquaintances that I'd like to get out on a bike some more, but I've avoided the E-Bikes because I fear they would simply run it in throttle mode, and get no benefit, plus put themselves in danger.

I'd much prefer anything called a "bike (bicycle)" to require pedaling as a primary motive force. Augmenting the pedaling with power is fine. I.E. Electric Assist to be called an E-Bike.


I heard of a group of guys going for a bike tour around France averaging 25+ MPH. Sometimes faster. Shorter days, they rode as high as 35 MPH average.

Aren't those just average cyclist speeds... they did average over the entire rides.
An E-Bike is NOT "necessarily" an E-assist bike that you must pedal to get anywhere... There is/seems to be, a HUGE problem here with definitions... IMO
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Old 08-03-18, 07:52 PM
  #98  
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Originally Posted by tn_roadie View Post
People for Bikes, which is an industry funded group, is pushing model legislation across the U.S. It defines three classes of e-bikes. Class 1 is a pedal assist up to 20 MPH, Class 2 is throttle up to 20 MPH, and Class 3 is pedal assist to 28 MPH. It clarifies they are to be treated as bicycles and can use all bike infrastructure, on and off street.

People for Bikes
Great,. UN-Fortunately they seem to state/generalize that all are "E-Bikes" and yes they are in a sense, but, wait a moment, some need to be called E-Bikes, some need to be called pedal assist bikes, and some need to be called mopeds... This "generalization of E-bikes" a one name fits all, is a fail. IMO... ,
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Old 08-03-18, 08:27 PM
  #99  
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If you go to the gym and do counterweight pullups the idea is to eventually reduce the counterweight until you can do them all on your own. An E-bike does the opposite. How much effort does it take to pedal an E-bike anyway -- 90%, 70%, 50%, less?

During the moped boom did anybody every pedal one? The problem with E-bikes is that you eventually rely way too much on the motor and less on your muscles. The opposite of exercise. That state of mind increase exponentially as you fatigue.
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Old 08-03-18, 09:26 PM
  #100  
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Originally Posted by tn_roadie View Post
People for Bikes, which is an industry funded group, is pushing model legislation across the U.S. It defines three classes of e-bikes. Class 1 is a pedal assist up to 20 MPH, Class 2 is throttle up to 20 MPH, and Class 3 is pedal assist to 28 MPH. It clarifies they are to be treated as bicycles and can use all bike infrastructure, on and off street.
If this were the case, i.e. all three classes treated the same as unpowered bicycles, then there would be no need to distinguish the three classes. If you look at their proposed legislation, they recommend that by default Class 1&2 are allowed on bike paths and MUPs while Class 3 is not although in both cases the local authorities can pass ordinances reversing the default position. They also propose that Class 3 have a minimum age requirement and a MHL.
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