rydabent

We are only talking e-bikes here. Most of the motors and batteries are so small you dont even notice them.

rydabent

No-------------it is NOT!!!!!!!!!!! Again we are talking e-bikes here.

UniChris

You're overlooking two critical things.

First, I was responding to someone who objected to the very idea of trying to tell others what they could do at all. Hence the Harley speeding through the bike lane example to demonstrate why anarchy does not work and traffic laws are needed.

Next, what is an e-bike anyway???

Or more generally, stop overlooking the fact that a powered bicycle and a motorcycle are fundamentally the same thing, only customarily differing in degree. Both Tesla and the model airplane world have proved that electric power systems can compete with fuel ones at least for short range performance, so the mere fact that something's motor is electric and not gas is irrelevant to the safety aspect of traffic laws (if anything, silent electric is more dangerous).

As a practical necessity, some sort of line has to be drawn between what is allowed to operate as a bicycle-type vehicle, and what is considered a motor vehicle, ie, traditional motorcycle.

In my hometown, that's now a distinction between pedal assist (bicycle) and any throttle system (illegal motor vehicle lacking safety systems required for moped registration)

I think this line could probably be fine-tuned, (for example speed- and acceleration- limited but inherently throttle stand up scooters would probably be good transit policy) - but the key point is that there has to be a line between what is, and isn't allowed, to operate under the special privileges and exemptions created in vehicle law for human powered bicycles.

Otherwise we're back to the Harley through the bike lane at 50 mph. Even if in the near future it's silent and electric and says Yamaha on the side.

C.Jester

I'm in a group chat with some friends in California and Washington and we've talked about this because it came up in their areas. Those two states are pretty high on taxes and costs anyway and are always looking for something else to hang a price tag on. The general idea (at least in my small group) is that once there is a financial benefit seen by charging money for a license for an e-bike, there’s a good chance that someone will then want to license all bikes. And who could argue it if it's for the benefit of “safety”.

Personally; I think life’s about choices. If you wreck a bike into a group of people, you should be held accountable the same as if you did it with a motorcycle or a car. Charging and inconveniencing everyone for the stupid acts of a few just seems like a lazy blanket fix that overlooks the requirements for personal accountability.

350htrr

Personal accountability... ??? No such thing it would seem, it's always the other guys fault...

As for the differences between an E-Assisted bike that you must pedal, to go anywhere, and an E- bike with a throttle, that you can chose not to pedal and still go, well it's huge.IMO

Nightcap

UniChris

The signs at all the entrances to my MUP have long said, and continue to say "no motor vehicles". If we're going to start making exceptions, then we as a society have to make some sane distinction between what we'll consider a "bicycle" (and politely overlook the assist motor) vs what we consider a "motor vehicle" aka motorcycle.

KraneXL

Sorry but no cigar. All the aforementioned are 100% people powered. There can't be any more damage than their capabilities allow. And in most cases, that's pretty low. E-bikes change all that.

daihard 

Has it ever occurred to you that it's not just the "lazy" people who ride an e-bike for fun? I personally know people with medical issues who wouldn't be able to ride a bike without power assist. I personally know mothers who need to carry their infants around on their family e-bike. I personally know car-free people who use e-bikes to haul grocery items, tools, etc. Hardly any of them go anywhere near 20 MPH, because their purpose of riding an e-bike is to get things gone and go to places. There's nothing wrong with not 100% human powered. What's wrong is the attitude that generalizes all e-bike riders and tries to penalize them unnecessarily.

Nightcap

I'm assuming that we are both sensible people of good will. Perhaps you have a different definition of e-bike than I do. I'm referring to what the federal Consumer Product Safety Act defines as a low speed electric bicycle.

"In conformance with legislation adopted by the U.S. Congress defining this category of electric-power bicycle (15 U.S.C. 2085(b)), CPSC rules stipulate that low speed electric bicycles (to include two- and three-wheel vehicles) are exempt from classification as motor vehicles providing they have fully operable pedals, an electric motor of less than 750W (1 hp), and a top motor-powered speed of less than 20 miles per hour (32 km/h) when operated by a rider weighing 170 pounds. An electric bike remaining within these specifications is subject to the CPSC consumer product regulations for a bicycle. Commercially manufactured e-bikes exceeding these power and speed limits are regulated by the federal DOT and NHTSA as motor vehicles, and must meet additional safety requirements."

If you're referring to something else, that's not an e-bike under federal (or my state's) laws.

Force equals mass times acceleration. A 170 pound person on a 50 pound e-bike traveling at the top speed of 20 mph generates less force than the same person on a 25 pound road bike zipping along at everyone's favorite Strava speed of 27 mph.

What am I missing?

Nightcap

I'm not saying that an e-bike is not a motor vehicle, the federal government does.

"In conformance with legislation adopted by the U.S. Congress defining this category of electric-power bicycle (15 U.S.C. 2085(b)), CPSC rules stipulate that low speed electric bicycles (to include two- and three-wheel vehicles) are exempt from classification as motor vehicles providing they have fully operable pedals, an electric motor of less than 750W (1 hp), and a top motor-powered speed of less than 20 miles per hour (32 km/h) when operated by a rider weighing 170 pounds. An electric bike remaining within these specifications is subject to the CPSC consumer product regulations for a bicycle. Commercially manufactured e-bikes exceeding these power and speed limits are regulated by the federal DOT and NHTSA as motor vehicles, and must meet additional safety requirements."

Are we talking about the same thing?

UniChris

For manufacturing purposes perhaps.

For usage ones, the definitions in state and local law apply. Things your link could be (mis)read to suggest are legal, are in fact not road legal in New York State and especially New York City. (To be very specific, they are legal to posses but illegal to operate).

Further, MUPs are typically treated as parks, not roadways. Localities are very much free to make rules for parks.

Nightcap

I'm trying not to take this discussion personally, but what you describe is exactly my wife's condition. With her e-bike, she's able to join me on the bike trail for the first time in our lives. I can't tell you what a delight it is to be able to share my enjoyment of cycling with her.

I'm usually on a Specialized Roll (due in part to my own medical issues), so you know we're not getting much beyond 15 mph with a tailwind. We've gone from just a few circles around the neighborhood to 30 mile jaunts to the Wellfleet trailhead and back. She's getting exercise, we're having fun, and life in retirement is good.

Nightcap

You're arguing points that are not in contention, UniChris. I never said that states and municipalities cannot or do not make their own rules. New York State's laws are murky at best, since they apparently require registration but there's no clear way to register e-bikes. I have every confidence that New York will someday join the 20th century, and am glad I don't have to worry about them.

UniChris

Presumably if an electric moped has the same traffic safety systems as a fuel moped, it can be registered and operated under the rules applying to mopeds. If not, this should be a relatively uncontroversial legislative change - I expect there would be a lot of support for electrifying the light motorcycle fleet, especially since small engines are notoriously dirty - there's been a big push for electric lawn mowers for example.

But that wouldn't grant MUP access.

To my understanding, pedal assist is now or will soon be permitted just about everywhere in NY state that pedal bikes are. I don't think pedal assist is the ultimately perfect dividing line, but there does need to be a distinction between human scale bicycles vs faster electric moped - 20 MPH at the squeeze of a trigger is not workable in a dense environment.

Even 20 MPH of pedal power has historically been problematic when abused, but at least that takes effort.

Nightcap

Again, I'm not sure what you think is under discussion. I've provided the federal definition of an e-bike. You're talking about something else.

A moped, according to most definitions, has over twice the horsepower of an e-bike. Different animal.

UniChris

A federal manufacturing definition is irrelevant to MUP usage rules.

Indeed, I'm talking about the state and local laws which are actually relevant to what is and is not permitted to be operated. Anything else would be pointless.

Many of the things people are trying to pass off as bikes have more than the equivalent of a horsepower. It's the state that categorized them as illegal unregistered mopeds. That said, I'd expect electric mopeds built to comply with motor vehicle law would have a bit more power to better blend with vehicular traffic.

True light electric motorcycles sound like a great idea. They're just not bicycles and shouldn't be passed off as such.

Nightcap

Except I've never mentioned "electric motorcycles" or mopeds. I'm talking about "low power electric bicycles" as defined by the CPSC. If we can't agree on the subject, we can't very well continue this discussion.

Happy trails!

UniChris

You've posted over and over again about the very same motor vehicles which applicable laws in some states so categorizes, though you prefer to use a different name for them.

Those are essentially irrelevant, as they are not the definitions that apply in state laws governing operation.

It seems like you're talking about consumer product standards, not about MUPs, or bike lanes, or licensing, so it's not clear why you're still posting in this thread.

Nightcap

The original post asked if we should require licenses to operate e-bikes, as we do with motorcycles. My question was, "To what end?" That 17 states have not yet caught up with the times isn't really relevant. (Heck, my state just killed a law prohibiting access to birth control for unmarried people.) The fact is that the majority of states define e-bikes pretty closely to what how the Fed does. It would be highly unusual if the remaining states do not follow suit.

(My state is one of those which have not yet joined the modern era. The understanding that this will be addressed by the Great and General Court in due time, and in the interim, if it looks like a bicycle and observes the existing bicycle safety laws, no one is going to hassle you on the MUP or anywhere else bikes are permitted.)

So, if your argument is that e-bike riders should be licensed because e-bikes are electric motorcycles, I protest. The definition might not be fixed yet in your state, but it will be, and it will be very close to the federal definition given earlier.

UniChris

My argument is that electric motorcycles should be licensed. That you chose to mis-label them as "bikes" doesn't change the fact of what they functionally are - a determination my state's DOT happens to agree with.

It already is fixed here. Specifically in a way that fits our traffic conditions.

If you saw what was actually happening on the streets with grossly improper operation of the illegal ones, you'd be less confident that things will go in the direction you want.

Pragmatically, if you want something like moderate speed pedal assist to be an option, the way to get the bulk of the (very vocal about this) non-riding population to tolerate that is not to argue "anything goes" and point to irrelevant publications form the CPSC, but to take a realistic look at what does and does not work in a city or popular path, and draw a practical line of compromise between the two.

Meanwhile, for the trips for which pedal assist is insufficient, I personally believe there should be a register-able class of light electric motorcyle for roadway-only operation. Most of the delivery usage should probably transition to these.

mr_bill

BTW, what you are looking for is "p = mv" not "f = ma." (Acceleration is 0 in your above scenario, you know, an object in motion stays in motion, no "f" required.)

And for what it's worth, in Massachusetts an e-bike is currently a "Motorized Bicycle."
The operator of a "Motorized Bicycle" must be 16 or over, and have a valid driver's license or learner's permit.
You can operate a "Motorized Bicycle" in a bike lane, but not on "off-street recreational bike paths."
You can't operate a "Motorized Bicycle" on roads where bicycles are prohibited.

Nothing in this year's bike bill (currently stalled in House Ways and Means) addresses e-bikes.

-mr. bill

KraneXL

In a word: skill. It develops concomitantly alone with your capacity to surmount passages you normally would not have the physical strength to surmount without the aid of the e-bike motor.

Nightcap

I have been very clear what kind of vehicle I'm talking about, and have not advocated "Anything goes."

Assuming you are in New York, the law is most certainly NOT fixed. Please see NY Senate Bill 6029B, currently in committee.

It defines an "Electric Assisted Bicycle" pretty much as stated above. Further, it requires that the bicycle comply with the USCPSC definition above.

As far as scooters, limited use motorcycles, etc. that's a different can o' worms that the bill clearly differentiates.

Nightcap

I stand corrected. (Hey, Physics 101 was a long time ago.)

As I mentioned in my conversation with UniChris above, the current standard in Massachusetts (as opposed to the letter of the archaic law) is that if it looks like a bicycle and existing bicycle safety laws are observed, no one is going to hassle you on any road or MUP. This is certainly the case in my neighborhood, where local bike rental spots abound and most are discovering e-bikes.

I'm out on the MUP nearly every day. The fastest vehicles by far are ordinary road bikes being ridden by younger people in full spandex kit, and I have no problem with 'em (save perhaps envy). On any given day, I'll usually see two or three e-bikes, traveling at about the same rate of speed I am. The two things they all have in common is that the riders are at least my age, and they're all smiling.

Massachusetts law will catch up. E-bikes are dropping in price and you're seeing more mainstream bike makers (Trek, Specialized, etc.) coming out with electric assist models.