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Bicycling licenses required for DRIVERS!

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Bicycling licenses required for DRIVERS!

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Old 07-12-18, 10:28 PM
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Matt74
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Bicycling licenses required for DRIVERS!

I agree with the responder who said that “[bicycle] licenses are a solution in search of a problem”. For all practical purposes we already have universal licensing for cyclists - with very few exceptions cyclists also drive. The reverse is not the case.

I think a great deal of good would come of testing and training MOTORISTS in bicycle operation and safety. I have seen studies that show that driver’s attitudes towards cyclists are heavily influenced by even the most insignificant experience riding a bike. It allows drvers to see cyclists as people.

In my experience, most of the danger on the roads is a result of driver’s ignorance. They don’t know the law. They don’t know what safe riding is. And, most importantly, they have no experience riding. When they find out what it is like to be closely passed by a car going 60, be cussed out by random people for no reason, or go face-to-face with a bullying SUV, they will be much better drivers around cyclists and pedestrians.

Ideally, applicants for driver’s licenses would have to pass a serious bike riding test in a busy urban area, along a highway, and on a mixed use path. Nothing too athletic, but under real life conditions. Of course that’s fantasy (although shouldn’t be). At the very least there should be a mandatory detailed written test on cycling laws and safety. (Not the “Wear a helmet and look both ways.” sort of thing, but a “If you are here and a car is there, how do you avoid death and dismemberment?” sort of thing.)

This would save lives. Some drivers would be clueless no matter what, but I believe it would produce demonstrable improvements in safety. It might also produce safer cyclists. I think it would absolutely change perceptions, which would influence behavior.

Intolerance towards cyclists persists in part because there is little or no public recognition of their right to exist. Requiring drivers to be informed, or better yet, requiring them to experience riding on the road, would change the way they drive. Driver’s could no longer live in a fantasy world where “bicycles don’t belong on the road”, and cyclists have no rights, even when they are injured or killed. It would also require police to enforce bicycle laws - which would protect good cyclists, and encourage more appropriate cycling laws.



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Old 07-12-18, 10:43 PM
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I'd love to see a requirement for motorists to cross the line, and at least spend some time on a bicycle around traffic.

30 days on a bike?

Perhaps also mandate taking the role of a "vulnerable road user" for certain infractions.
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Old 07-13-18, 02:33 AM
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Isn't that kinda like making a vegan buy a meat-eating license?
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Old 07-13-18, 06:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Matt74 View Post
I have seen studies that show that driver’s attitudes towards cyclists are heavily influenced by even the most insignificant experience riding a bike.
Where/when have you seen these "studies"?
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Old 07-13-18, 07:26 AM
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I'd be happy with simply enforcing safe driving laws already on the books, and taking away far more people's licenses.
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Old 07-13-18, 09:56 AM
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You guys want a 70 year old who's 100 pounds overweight to spend time learning and then riding a bike so they can get a driver's license to get to their doctor appointments?


Is this April 1st again?
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Old 07-13-18, 10:06 AM
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I like the suggestion for a motorist to ride a bicycle as part of their driver training. I was pleased when leading a bicycle safe riding discussion for cyclists that a driving teacher was in the class and shared the amount of training a new driver gets during drivers ed. It was more than I expected. This is in Washington State.
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Old 07-13-18, 10:14 AM
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how about Bicycling licenses required for Police?
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Old 07-13-18, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Kontact View Post
You guys want a 70 year old who's 100 pounds overweight to spend time learning and then riding a bike so they can get a driver's license to get to their doctor appointments?
It may well be the best thing they could do... go out and ride the bike, and skip the doctor's appointments.
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Old 07-13-18, 10:21 AM
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Will never happen, at least in my state. I got my first license at age 14, and it was pretty easy then. Over the years it's only gotten easier, with open book tests mailed to you in order to renew. You took the test at home, then took it to the DMV office where they check it and issued you a new license. That was over a decade ago. Last time I renewed I didn't eve have to take a test. I assume the next time I have to renew they'll just mail it to me automatically, or with a lot of people just send them a box of Cracker Jacks with their license as the prize.
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Old 07-13-18, 07:47 PM
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
Where/when have you seen these "studies"?
Starting on page iii, and 37...
http://www.gov.scot/resource/doc/156597/0042065.pdf
Some about drivers who also cycle, or do not cycle on the pages above. Most of the paper is about drivers’ perceptions of cycling, which show misunderstandings based on ignorance.

https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2016/01/drivers-negative-attitude-cyclists-bike-riders/423921/
Shows that drivers’ perceptions of cyclists change with how often they cycle. The more they cycle, the more predictable and law abiding they think cyclists are.

I saw one that correlated perceptions (or aggressive behavior) of drivers with the frequency that they rode a bike. It went from infrequent to frequent riders, something like once a month to several times a week. It had graphs showing that even riding once a month strongly affected behavior or perception. I can’t find it now.


What I noticed was that cyclists are blamed for everything, especially not following the laws, but drivers are not blamed. We all know that MANY drivers habitually speed, run red lights, run stop lights, fail to yield, cut people off, tailgate, pass in the slow lane, drive slow in the fast lane, text, etc. These things are not percieved as “breaking the law”, because they are “normal”. Drivers complain, especially in the second paper above, that cyclists do not follow the rules like a cars do. They say that if cyclists behaved “responsibly” (like a car), they would be given respect. I find the opposite to be true, it is precisely when I am acting most like a car that I get the most abuse. The only conclusion I can draw is that, while drivers have some justification for complaining about riders’ habits, it’s not really about cyclists bad behavior. You can ride through stops all day, and do all sorts of crazy stuff, and hardly be bothered by anyone. However, when you pull up at a stop light and take your place responsibly in line, you are likely to get cussed out, passed on the right, cut off, beeped at, etc. Take the slow lane in a 15, and you get cut off, tailgated, and buzzed. They don’t want you to act like a car, they want you gone. What drivers are really saying is “bicycles shouldn’t be on the road because they are not cars.” They can believe that cyclists are the worst kind of law breakers because they don’t cycle, and are accustomed to their own misdeeds. They can believe cyclists should drive like a car because they haven’t tried it and found out what happens. If they understood things better some of these illusions would disappear. They still might try to kill you, but they would know better.









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Old 07-13-18, 10:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Matt74 View Post
Starting on page iii, and 37...
http://www.gov.scot/resource/doc/156597/0042065.pdf
Some about drivers who also cycle, or do not cycle on the pages above. Most of the paper is about drivers’ perceptions of cycling, which show misunderstandings based on ignorance.
Sounds a lot like the Dunning-Kruger Effect. For those unfamiliar with it, this is a cognitive bias where people who lack knowledge of a subject overestimate their ability whereas those who have knowledge underestimate their ability. Quite simply, stupid people are too stupid to realize they are stupid.

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Old 07-14-18, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Matt74 View Post

I think a great deal of good would come of testing and training MOTORISTS in bicycle operation and safety.
Yes, I agree. Eight hours or more of in-traffic bicycle experience should be included as a requirement of getting a driver's licence.

This will also get rid of the "Get off the road" comments because it institutionalizes the acceptance of bicycles being on the road.

This will also address the Bicycle License issue that some people have been calling for.
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Old 07-14-18, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Daniel4 View Post
Yes, I agree. Eight hours or more of in-traffic bicycle experience should be included as a requirement of getting a driver's licence.

This will also get rid of the "Get off the road" comments because it institutionalizes the acceptance of bicycles being on the road.

This will also address the Bicycle License issue that some people have been calling for.
Nothing changes hearts and minds more than 8 hours of extra indoctrination.
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Old 07-14-18, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Kontact View Post
Nothing changes hearts and minds more than 8 hours of extra indoctrination.
Where I come from, eight hours of on-road driving experience is the requirement to obtain a driver's licence. So I put the same for the bicycle experience too. It wouldn't be too hard to do. A person can bike commute for a week and get a lot of experience that may improve the way he drives - especially if he knows that other cyclists may also be trying to get their driver's licence.

If eight hours is too short, then by all means, increase it.
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Old 07-14-18, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Daniel4 View Post
Where I come from, eight hours of on-road driving experience is the requirement to obtain a driver's licence. So I put the same for the bicycle experience too. It wouldn't be too hard to do. A person can bike commute for a week and get a lot of experience that may improve the way he drives - especially if he knows that other cyclists may also be trying to get their driver's licence.

If eight hours is too short, then by all means, increase it.
Many people are unable to ride a bicycle or afraid to. it is ridiculous to expect everyone who wants a DL to be able to ride a bike, or even own one. It's like adding a mountaineering requirement.
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Old 07-14-18, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Kontact View Post
Many people are unable to ride a bicycle or afraid to. it is ridiculous to expect everyone who wants a DL to be able to ride a bike, or even own one. It's like adding a mountaineering requirement.
Well, there's only one reason they'd be afraid isn't there? So it does make sense to train drivers so that other road users shouldn't be afraid of them. And the best way isn't to tell them. It's for them to experience bad driving for themselves from the perspective of someone else.

Mountaineers aren't road users.
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Old 07-14-18, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Daniel4 View Post
Well, there's only one reason they'd be afraid isn't there? So it does make sense to train drivers so that other road users shouldn't be afraid of them. And the best way isn't to tell them. It's for them to experience bad driving for themselves from the perspective of someone else.

Mountaineers aren't road users.
Are you serious? People are afraid of falling and hitting the ground, which is why many people don't ever learn to ride bicycles.

I swear, some of the stuff you say makes it sound like you live in a bubble somewhere. Bicycling is common enough, but it is an activity that requires a minimum level of fitness, dexterity, training, perseverance and courage. You can't mandate that stuff by law - at a minimum you'd violate the American's with Disabilities Act, but a large portion of other people are functionally "disabled" when it comes to all sorts of athletic activity like bike riding, climbing, etc.


I'd suggest you start thinking about the society you actually live in that contains all sorts of people, not just young athletes. Then some of your ideas would at least conform to reality.
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Old 07-14-18, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Kontact View Post
Then some of your ideas would at least conform to reality.
I dunno, they seem to fit right into the OP's version of an alternate reality based on daydreaming and uttering a bicycling based mantra.
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Old 07-14-18, 09:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Kontact View Post
You guys want a 70 year old who's 100 pounds overweight to spend time learning and then riding a bike so they can get a driver's license to get to their doctor appointments?


Is this April 1st again?
No, that 70 year old probably wasn't born as a 70 year old... likely got a drivers license when younger.

I suspect the OP is merely pushing for cycling training and experience as a prerequisite to new drivers getting a license.

For that 70 year old, who is likely RENEWING an old license... maybe a few hours of video training is sufficient.

Then again... do you really want an overweight individual, with poor reaction time, and probably failing eyesight, to really be on the roads... piloting a multi-ton vehicle?
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Old 07-14-18, 09:52 PM
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Originally Posted by genec View Post
No, that 70 year old probably wasn't born as a 70 year old... likely got a drivers license when younger.

I suspect the OP is merely pushing for cycling training and experience as a prerequisite to new drivers getting a license.

For that 70 year old, who is likely RENEWING an old license... maybe a few hours of video training is sufficient.

Then again... do you really want an overweight individual, with poor reaction time, and probably failing eyesight, to really be on the roads... piloting a multi-ton vehicle?
What I want and what is fair protection under the law aren't the same things. If a person is unable to pass a driver's test, then they are unable to pass a driver's test.

You can drive a car with no sense of balance. You can't bike 2 feet that way. So now that has been pointed out, let's hear how you guys have this simple, painless plan for an extensive medical exception guideline allowing people who can't safely ride a bike to get a driver's license anyway.

Thank God this ridiculous idea would never get any real support from anything more than the tiniest fraction of a percent of voters. It is just plain silly to even discuss.
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Old 07-14-18, 09:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Kontact View Post
Are you serious? People are afraid of falling and hitting the ground, which is why many people don't ever learn to ride bicycles.

I swear, some of the stuff you say makes it sound like you live in a bubble somewhere. Bicycling is common enough, but it is an activity that requires a minimum level of fitness, dexterity, training, perseverance and courage. You can't mandate that stuff by law - at a minimum you'd violate the American's with Disabilities Act, but a large portion of other people are functionally "disabled" when it comes to all sorts of athletic activity like bike riding, climbing, etc.


I'd suggest you start thinking about the society you actually live in that contains all sorts of people, not just young athletes. Then some of your ideas would at least conform to reality.
I'm willing to bet that at the time MOST people first seek to get a drivers license they do indeed have "a minimum level of fitness, dexterity, training" suitable for riding a bike.

Most folks in the US seek to get a drivers license between age 16 and 18... when they are young and healthy.

Requiring cycling training as a prerequisite to earning a driving permit would not be a huge burden at that point... and could easily be implemented into standard school format... as was drivers ed when I took it in high school, in the early 70s.
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Old 07-14-18, 10:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Kontact View Post
What I want and what is fair protection under the law aren't the same things. If a person is unable to pass a driver's test, then they are unable to pass a driver's test.

You can drive a car with no sense of balance. You can't bike 2 feet that way. So now that has been pointed out, let's hear how you guys have this simple, painless plan for an extensive medical exception guideline allowing people who can't safely ride a bike to get a driver's license anyway.

Thank God this ridiculous idea would never get any real support from anything more than the tiniest fraction of a percent of voters. It is just plain silly to even discuss.
There are a huge number of bikes sold in the US... I suspect your "can't even balance scenerio" is pretty damn minimal... one has to be able to balance just to walk.

BTW "fair protection under the law..." What the hell are you talking about... there is no "right to drive." It is a privilege granted by earning a license.
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Old 07-14-18, 10:23 PM
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Originally Posted by genec View Post
There are a huge number of bikes sold in the US... I suspect your "can't even balance scenerio" is pretty damn minimal... one has to be able to balance just to walk.

BTW "fair protection under the law..." What the hell are you talking about... there is no "right to drive." It is a privilege granted by earning a license.
It's a privilege available to all people able to drive, not to people that meet the absurd non-driving requirements.

Just like you can't make land ownership a requirement to get a marriage license, you can't make the performance of an athletic activity a requirement for driver's license. That's prejudicial.

But this is such an unlikely proposition, it might as be a requirement that monkeys fly out of your butt. They have an equal shot at becoming law. But only one of them is obviously is prejudicial, because more people have butts than are able to ride bicycles.
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Old 07-14-18, 10:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Kontact View Post
It's a privilege available to all people able to drive, not to people that meet the absurd non-driving requirements.

Just like you can't make land ownership a requirement to get a marriage license, you can't make the performance of an athletic activity a requirement for driver's license. That's prejudicial.

But this is such an unlikely proposition, it might as be a requirement that monkeys fly out of your butt. They have an equal shot at becoming law. But only one of them is obviously is prejudicial, because more people have butts than are able to ride bicycles.
And yet, oddly, perfomance of "an athletic ability" is often required in a DUI test.

(just as odd a metaphor as your land ownership example)
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