🚴 Why MUPs Fail
#26
Walmart bike rider
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I have yet to find a MUP like that. Every single one I've tried has been dominated -- overwhelmingly -- by pedestrian. Because I have to watch out for everybody going in all directions, my average speed on the MUP is 1/2 of what it is on the road with constant traffic signals and stop signs. You didn't read any of my posts did you?
For the most part, pedestrians don't significantly slow me down on the MUPS. But, it may depend a bit on the city, MUP, time of day, day of the week, and month of the year.
I posted a photo of the Portland riverfront earlier. Depending on what is happening, it can be a bit slow. I'd have gotten through that day if I didn't have a trailer, but since I was towing, I had to turn around and try a different route. But, other Portland area MUPS are pretty smooth sailing.
Likewise in Eugene, a few bad spots, often around parks, but generally pretty clear riding once one gets off the bridges, and a few hundred yards away from the parking lots.
It turns out that my fastest commute (up until this summer) was about 1/3 on a MUP at an 18 MPH overall average for about 15 miles total.
I don't race a lot on the MUPS, but have picked out a couple of Strava segments I like, clocking a couple of my fastest flatish segments. 25.1 MPH & 27.7 MPH... yes, I know, a bit slow, I'll work on them a bit more.
And, yes, I've had pedestrians blow my Strava runs before. Eagle gawkers? But, that is all part of the game. Slow down, pass safely, rest, and ride another day.
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It may be that California needs to redesign some of their MUPS.
The widest MUP in Eugene is about 25 feet wide. Generally adequate room to pass trail users going in any direction, or on any side of the trail although I did have a pedestrian dart across the path from one side to the other without looking, directly in front of me while I was pounding at about 25 MPH. BURNT RUBBER!!!
Walkers tend to be on the paved paths, but there are several jogger only paths (no bikes allowed). This may well decrease bicycle/jogger interactions.
Anyway, if they have too many people on the paths in California, then they need to widen the paths and make more of them. Redundant paths. Perhaps also consider parallel pedestrian/cyclist paths.
The raised bridges are likely the most difficult to deal with... double deck configuration? Yet, if they look like a 5th Avenue sidewalk... then something needs improved.
The widest MUP in Eugene is about 25 feet wide. Generally adequate room to pass trail users going in any direction, or on any side of the trail although I did have a pedestrian dart across the path from one side to the other without looking, directly in front of me while I was pounding at about 25 MPH. BURNT RUBBER!!!
Walkers tend to be on the paved paths, but there are several jogger only paths (no bikes allowed). This may well decrease bicycle/jogger interactions.
Anyway, if they have too many people on the paths in California, then they need to widen the paths and make more of them. Redundant paths. Perhaps also consider parallel pedestrian/cyclist paths.
The raised bridges are likely the most difficult to deal with... double deck configuration? Yet, if they look like a 5th Avenue sidewalk... then something needs improved.
#29
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How is it that the expectation of riding normally in the portion of the MUP designated and marked for bikes considered "reckless cycling"? With that understanding (yield priority to pedestrians) the MUP are no more than a sidewalk as the exact same legal prioritization applies.
In fact, you have just proven my original point: that MUPs fail. Despite the apportioned designation for cycling, they are no more than highfalutin sidewalks (that don't prohibit bikes), with a politically correct trendy title.
In fact, you have just proven my original point: that MUPs fail. Despite the apportioned designation for cycling, they are no more than highfalutin sidewalks (that don't prohibit bikes), with a politically correct trendy title.
#30
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Why threads get enormously popular and then locked.
#32
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A shared paths implies equal access and use. However, I've never seen any cyclist occupying or continuous riding on the pedestrian side. However, I can't say the same for the reverse.
As a motorist, I've never said that. Knowing full well a single cyclist can do little to disrupt my means of travel. In fact, when I see a cyclist, I give him a thumbs up, knowing that he represents one less car on the road I have to contend with.
As a motorist, I've never said that. Knowing full well a single cyclist can do little to disrupt my means of travel. In fact, when I see a cyclist, I give him a thumbs up, knowing that he represents one less car on the road I have to contend with.
To a motorist, folks on bicycles have two states... they are either invisible ("I didn't see 'em"), or "in the way."
I used to play a little game with my fellow engineers when we would occasionally go to lunch as a group in one car... after passing a cyclist, I'd ask what color the cyclist was wearing... and get answers ranging from "what cyclist" to a proper color answer... the latter was an indication that the cyclist was seen, not "automatically ignored."
Try it some time with good friends... it will annoy anyone else.
#33
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"Nobody goes there anymore, it's too crowded."
the Minuteman Commuter Bikeway between Bedford and Cambridge, MA is, despite the name, a really good MUP. There are stretches where there are lots of pedestrians and you have to slow down, but there are also long segments where you can ride in the mid-20s without any problems. And if you go early in the morning, there won't be much in the way of any traffic. You really can't expect any more than that in a thickly settled urban area.
the Minuteman Commuter Bikeway between Bedford and Cambridge, MA is, despite the name, a really good MUP. There are stretches where there are lots of pedestrians and you have to slow down, but there are also long segments where you can ride in the mid-20s without any problems. And if you go early in the morning, there won't be much in the way of any traffic. You really can't expect any more than that in a thickly settled urban area.
#34
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I'm not sure what the big deal is. Although, I have rarely walked on a MUP, I do know what it's like to have a bicycle zip by you as you're walking on a sidewalk.
So when I'm cycling on a MUP, I give pedestrians a wide berth as I slowly ride pass with my bell ringing. Sometimes, when I see a pedestrian headed directly at me without any indication of what direction he or she intends to move, I just stop.
Only on MUPs will utility vehicles pay careful attention and get put of the way of cyclists.
The only things I don't like are:
1) too many signs telling cyclists to dismount;
2) not that great as comuter routes because they meander all over the place adding kms or miles to your travel.
So when I'm cycling on a MUP, I give pedestrians a wide berth as I slowly ride pass with my bell ringing. Sometimes, when I see a pedestrian headed directly at me without any indication of what direction he or she intends to move, I just stop.
Only on MUPs will utility vehicles pay careful attention and get put of the way of cyclists.
The only things I don't like are:
1) too many signs telling cyclists to dismount;
2) not that great as comuter routes because they meander all over the place adding kms or miles to your travel.
#35
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Why MUPS Fail
There certainly have been many MUP threads about the hazards, but IMO this one was the best about the utility of MUPS, as a transportation policy:
Below are some excerpts and comments (from another related A&S thread), as to why MUP don't work well for cyclists:...
So, you want thousands of people to help you pay for an MUP, then you want them to stay off of it so that you can use it for your purposes and you don't have to deal with the others who helped pay for it.
Or, if they do use it, you want them to use it in a way that is most conducive to your enjoyment of the MUP, not theirs.
Gotcha. Let us know how that works out for you.
Or, if they do use it, you want them to use it in a way that is most conducive to your enjoyment of the MUP, not theirs.
Gotcha. Let us know how that works out for you.
Man, this is like so many internet arguments.
We need air!
No, you're wrong! We need water!
How about we ride on the roads where that works, develop new infrastructure where we need it, and enforce the laws everywhere??
We need air!
No, you're wrong! We need water!
How about we ride on the roads where that works, develop new infrastructure where we need it, and enforce the laws everywhere??
Sounds great. However, we have this little problem that started in California back in '78 with prop. 13. As a result of the four decades long tax revolt it spawned, we're dealing with the ultimate priority issue: there's only so much money in the budget and it's not enough.
Some people, mostly people who are relatively new to cycling, think we should use the few dollars that can go towards improving conditions for cycling by building a few miles of separated infrastructure and place it mostly on urban roads (with the inevitable intersection failures).
Other, more experienced riders, think we would be better served by funding traffic law enforcement and putting in many more miles of proper, six to eight foot bikelanes (not in the door zone) and only putting in separate facilities where there are long stretches of high-speed road without appreciable numbers of intersections.
This difference of opinion wouldn't be such a big deal, but many of these segragationists have been making their public case by convincing everyone that cycling is too dangerous to be done anywhere except on a segregated facility. Not surprisingly, this has an impact in terms of how many people are willing to even try riding a bike since there is no way to get anywhere in the US without riding on a road.
Oddly enough, these people are called and consider themselves "bicycling advocates". If one were to design a fifth-column assault to keep cycling participation down, it would look just like the pro-separation folks
Some people, mostly people who are relatively new to cycling, think we should use the few dollars that can go towards improving conditions for cycling by building a few miles of separated infrastructure and place it mostly on urban roads (with the inevitable intersection failures).
Other, more experienced riders, think we would be better served by funding traffic law enforcement and putting in many more miles of proper, six to eight foot bikelanes (not in the door zone) and only putting in separate facilities where there are long stretches of high-speed road without appreciable numbers of intersections.
This difference of opinion wouldn't be such a big deal, but many of these segragationists have been making their public case by convincing everyone that cycling is too dangerous to be done anywhere except on a segregated facility. Not surprisingly, this has an impact in terms of how many people are willing to even try riding a bike since there is no way to get anywhere in the US without riding on a road.
Oddly enough, these people are called and consider themselves "bicycling advocates". If one were to design a fifth-column assault to keep cycling participation down, it would look just like the pro-separation folks
Last edited by Jim from Boston; 07-23-18 at 09:07 AM.
#36
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The biggest problem I see around here with MUP's is that far too many bicyclists don't realize that MUP stands for MULTI USE Path. At certain times of the day and on weekends some of the MUPs in my area are like a highway during rush hour with lots of stop and go traffic. You have pedestrians, dog walkers with dogs on long very thin retractable leashes with the leash run out to 25 feet or so which results in the leash being stretched across the path, many people wearing earbuds with volume so high they can't hear a bicycle bell, casual "squirrel" type bicyclists who can't hold a straight line to save their lives, and wannabe Grand Tour bicyclists who think that the MUP is their private training ground. MUP stands for MULTI USE and thus bicyclists need to expect others and be prepared to stop suddenly if needed. During the really busy times on the MUPs around here I avoid them and use the road if I want to get somewhere quickly and/or avoid the stress of trying to negotiate around the other users of the MULTI Use Path.
Cheers
Cheers
#37
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The biggest problem I see around here with MUP's is that far too many bicyclists don't realize that MUP stands for MULTI USE Path. At certain times of the day and on weekends some of the MUPs in my area are like a highway during rush hour with lots of stop and go traffic. You have pedestrians, dog walkers with dogs on long very thin retractable leashes with the leash run out to 25 feet or so which results in the leash being stretched across the path, many people wearing earbuds with volume so high they can't hear a bicycle bell, casual "squirrel" type bicyclists who can't hold a straight line to save their lives, and wannabe Grand Tour bicyclists who think that the MUP is their private training ground.
MUP stands for MULTI USE and thus bicyclists need to expect others and be prepared to stop suddenly if needed. During the really busy times on the MUPs around here I avoid them and use the road if I want to get somewhere quickly and/or avoid the stress of trying to negotiate around the other users of the MULTI Use Path.
Cheers
Cheers
#38
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"Nobody goes there anymore, it's too crowded."
the Minuteman Commuter Bikeway between Bedford and Cambridge, MA is, despite the name, a really good MUP. There are stretches where there are lots of pedestrians and you have to slow down, but there are also long segments where you can ride in the mid-20s without any problems. And if you go early in the morning, there won't be much in the way of any traffic. You really can't expect any more than that in a thickly settled urban area.
the Minuteman Commuter Bikeway between Bedford and Cambridge, MA is, despite the name, a really good MUP. There are stretches where there are lots of pedestrians and you have to slow down, but there are also long segments where you can ride in the mid-20s without any problems. And if you go early in the morning, there won't be much in the way of any traffic. You really can't expect any more than that in a thickly settled urban area.
Today the LED lights are far brighter, I'm far slower, and apart from a few kids smoking on a bridge railing, I can't remember the last time I encountered a pedestrian on a suburban MUP after dark.
#39
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During the really busy times on the MUPs around here I avoid them and use the road if I want to get somewhere quickly and/or avoid the stress of trying to negotiate around the other users of the MULTI Use Path.
Cheers
Cheers
I have yet to encounter a busy MUP where nobody was riding a bicycle. I've encountered an EMPTY MUP where I was the only person riding a bicycle and nobody was walking. Mile after mile after mile.
Anyhow, when the MUP is busy, there is a lot of traffic. Which means that there are lots of PEOPLE using the MUP. People on bikes. People on foot. Which can lead to traffic jams.
If you don't want to be the traffic you are stuck in, then find another route with less traffic (Miele Man's choice), or travel at a different time when there is less traffic, or SLOW DOWN to a safe speed and pass only when safe -- because TRAFFIC, or incessantly WHINE about the TRAFFIC. It's really that simple.
OR, you can honk honk HONK because the car in front of you just cut you off on the GWB. Or be that person who is getting honked at while you are cutting everyone off because every half a car length is so damn valuable to you. Or incessantly WHINE about the TRAFFIC.
Your choice.
-mr. bill
Last edited by mr_bill; 07-24-18 at 07:33 AM.
#40
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I remember riding the Minuteman to a dinner party in Arlington and back to the Cambridge/Belmont border circa 2000 with friends. Was a lot of fun, only very unnerving how with the halogen/NiCd lights of the era, pedestrians (and there were a lot out that night) were all but invisible until we were right on top of them.
Today the LED lights are far brighter, I'm far slower, and apart from a few kids smoking on a bridge railing, I can't remember the last time I encountered a pedestrian on a suburban MUP after dark.
Today the LED lights are far brighter, I'm far slower, and apart from a few kids smoking on a bridge railing, I can't remember the last time I encountered a pedestrian on a suburban MUP after dark.
-mr. bill
#41
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The reality is that multi-use paths have to cater to the lowest common denominator, but I do think some folks, especially faster folks, are definitely made to feel less welcome.
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Just like "slower road users" think that "faster road users" should pass safely, and if that's not possible because of traffic, SLOW DOWN, and then pass when it's safe to do so.
How is that a conundrum?
-mr. bill
Last edited by mr_bill; 07-24-18 at 11:44 AM.
#43
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Because there's no where that someone who would be well above average speed on a MUP and well below average on a road can go to just ride and concentrate on athleticism without getting interrupted by other traffic, unless they find an empty MUP or empty road.
Worse, the other users in each place are always telling them that they've picked the wrong place to ride.
Worse, the other users in each place are always telling them that they've picked the wrong place to ride.
#44
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Because there's no where that someone who would be well above average speed on a MUP and well below average on a road can go to just ride and concentrate on athleticism without getting interrupted by other traffic, unless they find an empty MUP or empty road.
Worse, the other users in each place are always telling them that they've picked the wrong place to ride.
Worse, the other users in each place are always telling them that they've picked the wrong place to ride.
Worse, *SOME* other users in each place are always telling them that they've picked the wrong place to go.
"Get off my ROAD! Get off my MUP!"
-mr. bill
#45
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Actually, "slower MUP users" think that "faster MUP users" should pass safely, and if that's not possible because of traffic, SLOW DOWN, and then pass when it's safe to do so.
Just like "slower road users" think that "faster road users" should pass safely, and if that's not possible because of traffic, SLOW DOWN, and then pass when it's safe to do so.
How is that a conundrum?
-mr. bill
Just like "slower road users" think that "faster road users" should pass safely, and if that's not possible because of traffic, SLOW DOWN, and then pass when it's safe to do so.
How is that a conundrum?
-mr. bill
UniChris summed it up very nicely, and appreciate that, the conundrum being that there is a segment of users who are told where they are is the wrong place to ride. I got flipped off in Lexington on Mass Ave because I was on the road, with the driver telling me to get on the bike trail (this was on a busy weekend day), but riding at the pace of my particular workout would have been impossible on the bike path (constant slowing is not really a productive workout). So that's what I was referring to as a conundrum where motorists don't want cyclists on the road and MUPs aren't a great place if someone really wants to get a workout. Obviously the roads are more than wide open and motorists aren't always yelling at cyclists to get off the roads, but the sentiment is out there.
#46
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I'm sure there's a forum somewhere where you can whine about the traffic. Bridgeforums or Tunnelforums maybe?
I have yet to encounter a busy MUP where nobody was riding a bicycle. I've encountered an EMPTY MUP where I was the only person riding a bicycle and nobody was walking. Mile after mile after mile.
Anyhow, when the MUP is busy, there is a lot of traffic. Which means that there are lots of PEOPLE using the MUP. People on bikes. People on foot. Which can lead to traffic jams.
If you don't want to be the traffic you are stuck in, then find another route with less traffic (Miele Man's choice), or travel at a different time when there is less traffic, or SLOW DOWN to a safe speed and pass only when safe -- because TRAFFIC, or incessantly WHINE about the TRAFFIC. It's really that simple.
OR, you can honk honk HONK because the car in front of you just cut you off on the GWB. Or be that person who is getting honked at while you are cutting everyone off because every half a car length is so damn valuable to you. Or incessantly WHINE about the TRAFFIC.
Your choice.
-mr. bill
I have yet to encounter a busy MUP where nobody was riding a bicycle. I've encountered an EMPTY MUP where I was the only person riding a bicycle and nobody was walking. Mile after mile after mile.
Anyhow, when the MUP is busy, there is a lot of traffic. Which means that there are lots of PEOPLE using the MUP. People on bikes. People on foot. Which can lead to traffic jams.
If you don't want to be the traffic you are stuck in, then find another route with less traffic (Miele Man's choice), or travel at a different time when there is less traffic, or SLOW DOWN to a safe speed and pass only when safe -- because TRAFFIC, or incessantly WHINE about the TRAFFIC. It's really that simple.
OR, you can honk honk HONK because the car in front of you just cut you off on the GWB. Or be that person who is getting honked at while you are cutting everyone off because every half a car length is so damn valuable to you. Or incessantly WHINE about the TRAFFIC.
Your choice.
-mr. bill
Of course all of this implies that there is a marked separation between the two. If its just a trail or path WITHOUT MARKINGS, then there no expectation of exclusivity.
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Near me there are usually one or two spots by a bridge or lake that people walk on the rest is fairly isolated and you can drope the hammer.
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That's 'cause you are not really a motorist... you are a cyclist in a car. I bet you even look for cyclists and are fully aware of where they are, while you drive.
To a motorist, folks on bicycles have two states... they are either invisible ("I didn't see 'em"), or "in the way."
I used to play a little game with my fellow engineers when we would occasionally go to lunch as a group in one car... after passing a cyclist, I'd ask what color the cyclist was wearing... and get answers ranging from "what cyclist" to a proper color answer... the latter was an indication that the cyclist was seen, not "automatically ignored."
Try it some time with good friends... it will annoy anyone else.
To a motorist, folks on bicycles have two states... they are either invisible ("I didn't see 'em"), or "in the way."
I used to play a little game with my fellow engineers when we would occasionally go to lunch as a group in one car... after passing a cyclist, I'd ask what color the cyclist was wearing... and get answers ranging from "what cyclist" to a proper color answer... the latter was an indication that the cyclist was seen, not "automatically ignored."
Try it some time with good friends... it will annoy anyone else.
#50
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