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Taking The Lane

Old 01-29-19, 04:09 PM
  #51  
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Originally Posted by SHBR View Post
The point should be clear, it doesn't matter where you ride, if a motorist wants to hit you, they can.

Full stop.
Originally Posted by Chris0516 View Post
That is a pathetic attitude. You might as well, not be riding on the road, AT ALL.
No, what is pathetic is your living in a fantasy world where no one is allowed to hit you as long as you get in their way. The idea you keep expressing that being in the middle of the lane makes you invulnerable is absolutely absurd, and your need to cling to it for some feeling of superiority over fact and fate is indeed pathetic.

If you are not mature enough to face the simple fact that a car can hit you Anywhere on the road and even off the road, then fine ... cling to your fantasies. If you feel safe in the middle of the road, ride there. But please, do not insult the people with the wisdom and the fortitude to face facts and also enjoy riding.

It is a fact, whether you are strong enough to face it or not---ANYWHERE on the road, a car can hit you. There is No "Safe Spot." You could be two feet off the road and still get hit.

Most of us realize this, and manage our exposure and our risk, and survive quite well. Because you are too afraid to face facts, you need to pretend that Only your program of being in the middle of the road makes you safe---regardless of what others say, regardless of what others Do on a daily basis.

You prefer to deny reality than to face it and accept it and learn to cope with it. That is fine. But if you start insulting other people to defend your fantasy, that is less alright.

Try to remember that the world is full of cyclists who ride as far, as often, and in as dangerous traffic and you do ... and Not all of them do it your way, and almost none of them get hit. If you reject that as well ... well, seek help wherever you can, I guess. But as life progresses, people are supposed to grow and let go of their fantasies and face facts.

It's okay. You will be exactly as safe as you are now, when you acknowledge reality.
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Old 01-29-19, 04:25 PM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by KraneXL View Post
You are required to stay in the bike lane when its available. The exceptions follow the same rules as any road hazard.
That doesn't account for stupidity on the part of motorists'. Just as with the second video, where the motorist suddenly merged right, in front of the cyclist. I have also seen motorists' cause major traffic problems passing me, where there was no bike lane, and where a bike lane existed, All because a motorist wanted to get ahead of me. One almost caused a major accident by spinning out, and blocking ALL the traffic going the same direction.
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Old 01-29-19, 04:33 PM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by BikingTech View Post
Perhaps I have to count my blessing or whatever because I get nothing but respect from the big rigs here. I live in farm country and have a 7 mile commute to work. 18 wheelers pass me all the time with some giving a quick honk if they are pulling a wide load. Shoulder widths range from 1' to 10' on my route.
It is probably calmer traffic there. Here, They drive like they have to be somewhere YESTERDAY. Also, Your living in farm country, it is not as congested.
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Old 01-29-19, 05:47 PM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
No, what is pathetic is your living in a fantasy world where no one is allowed to hit you as long as you get in their way. The idea you keep expressing that being in the middle of the lane makes you invulnerable is absolutely absurd, and your need to cling to it for some feeling of superiority over fact and fate is indeed pathetic.
Yes, Being in the middle of the lane, increases visibility. Superiority, no. Equality, yes
Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
If you are not mature enough to face the simple fact that a car can hit you Anywhere on the road and even off the road, then fine ... cling to your fantasies. If you feel safe in the middle of the road, ride there. But please, do not insult the people with the wisdom and the fortitude to face facts and also enjoy riding.
That is not a fantasy. I use driver behavior to my advantage. Because I know what a driver wants', and does not want to do.
Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
It is a fact, whether you are strong enough to face it or not---ANYWHERE on the road, a car can hit you. There is No "Safe Spot." You could be two feet off the road and still get hit.
There is a more visible position in the lane, and it definitely isn't, hugging the curb/riding in the gutter. We don't maintain our visibility, and predictability. By weaving into, and out of, the traffic lane.
Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
Most of us realize this, and manage our exposure and our risk, and survive quite well. Because you are too afraid to face facts, you need to pretend that Only your program of being in the middle of the road makes you safe---regardless of what others say, regardless of what others Do on a daily basis.
More visible, and not treated as an anachronism. Visibility increases safety. Invisibility, decreases safety.
Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
You prefer to deny reality than to face it and accept it and learn to cope with it. That is fine. But if you start insulting other people to defend your fantasy, that is less alright.
I don't deny that reality. But use that reality to my advantage. Again you are calling it a fantasy. That makes you no different.
Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
Try to remember that the world is full of cyclists who ride as far, as often, and in as dangerous traffic and you do ... and Not all of them do it your way, and almost none of them get hit. If you reject that as well ... well, seek help wherever you can, I guess. But as life progresses, people are supposed to grow and let go of their fantasies and face facts.
There you go again with your fantasy 'theory'.
Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
It's okay. You will be exactly as safe as you are now, when you acknowledge reality.
I am already safe. Motorists' complain about cyclists' not being 'predictable'. I make myself predictable, by 'taking the lane'.
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Old 01-29-19, 07:38 PM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by Chris0516 View Post
Because I know what a driver wants', and does not want to do.
Wow, just wow.

I'd reckon if I had this ability, I wouldn't EVER have any issues with anyone.

Thanks for your incredible insight, perhaps we can all be as extraordinary as you!

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Old 01-29-19, 07:40 PM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
No, what is pathetic is your living in a fantasy world where no one is allowed to hit you as long as you get in their way. The idea you keep expressing that being in the middle of the lane makes you invulnerable is absolutely absurd, and your need to cling to it for some feeling of superiority over fact and fate is indeed pathetic.

If you are not mature enough to face the simple fact that a car can hit you Anywhere on the road and even off the road, then fine ... cling to your fantasies. If you feel safe in the middle of the road, ride there. But please, do not insult the people with the wisdom and the fortitude to face facts and also enjoy riding.

It is a fact, whether you are strong enough to face it or not---ANYWHERE on the road, a car can hit you. There is No "Safe Spot." You could be two feet off the road and still get hit.

Most of us realize this, and manage our exposure and our risk, and survive quite well. Because you are too afraid to face facts, you need to pretend that Only your program of being in the middle of the road makes you safe---regardless of what others say, regardless of what others Do on a daily basis.

You prefer to deny reality than to face it and accept it and learn to cope with it. That is fine. But if you start insulting other people to defend your fantasy, that is less alright.

Try to remember that the world is full of cyclists who ride as far, as often, and in as dangerous traffic and you do ... and Not all of them do it your way, and almost none of them get hit. If you reject that as well ... well, seek help wherever you can, I guess. But as life progresses, people are supposed to grow and let go of their fantasies and face facts.

It's okay. You will be exactly as safe as you are now, when you acknowledge reality.
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Old 01-29-19, 07:48 PM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by Lemond1985 View Post
That exasperated, caterwauling sound you made when the car cut you off instantly reminded me of Alex from A Clockwork Orange, though your voice is deeper.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E51-2B8gHtk


Those look like some mean streets. If ever there was a place where dual cameras were needed, it would be there. What with all the mopeds, confused traffic patterns, and terrible road design. I bet you get some pretty good footage with that setup.
Meh.

Most of my rides not eventful, the way it should be.

These two close calls are not a good start for 2019.

Usually its the 2 wheeled motorists that are the most problematic, that seems to be improving, there are cameras everywhere.

The meanest people on the streets are the cops, I guess that is probably true everywhere.

I miss the days of being able to have an honest conversation with the police, I learned a lot from them when I was younger, and many of them earned my respect.

Not so sure about that any more though.
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Old 01-29-19, 09:41 PM
  #58  
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You proceed from an incorrect premise if you feel taking the lane is not a safety measure. Taking the lane doesn't make you invincible nor is that the intention. The intent is to be seen, and more importantly, to notify motorists that the road is too narrow to pass safely.

The idea that people may hit you is always a reality but never an absolute. The laws are clear, and the solution is simple: you move to the side you encourage passing, when you're in the center, you discourage it.

Besides, you can follow every law, move to the edge, make no mistakes and still get hit. I was hit on the sidewalk and it doesn't get any safer than that. That type of particular possibility exist all the time, no matter how you travel, and with everything we do that involves the rest of society. It no more or less a risky than crossing the street.
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Old 01-30-19, 12:53 AM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by SHBR View Post
Wow, just wow.
Wow to you, too

Originally Posted by SHBR View Post
I'd reckon if I had this ability, I wouldn't EVER have any issues with anyone.:
No, You would just have a better understanding of traffic behavior.

Originally Posted by SHBR View Post
Thanks for your incredible insight, perhaps we can all be as extraordinary as you!
Watch the driving behavior much closer, the next time you are out again.
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Old 01-30-19, 10:30 AM
  #60  
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I was walking on the sidewalk late at night. I was quite invisible. All dark clothing. Since I knew this, when I got to the intersection I waited for the car I had seen to turn. They didn't. WTF. Then I realized they had seen me and were waiting for me to cross! That's right. Nowhere close to the road. With parked cars in between me and the road. They saw me anyway. Those of you who insist that drivers can't see anything that doesn't resemble the Mother Ship from "Close Encounters of the First Kind", even in the daytime(!) are quite mistaken. Odd this, because unless I way miss my guess most of you are also drivers. Maybe even primarily drivers.
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Old 01-30-19, 10:34 AM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by Leisesturm View Post
I was walking on the sidewalk late at night. I was quite invisible. All dark clothing. Since I knew this, when I got to the intersection I waited for the car I had seen to turn. They didn't. WTF. Then I realized they had seen me and were waiting for me to cross! That's right. Nowhere close to the road. With parked cars in between me and the road. They saw me anyway. Those of you who insist that drivers can't see anything that doesn't resemble the Mother Ship from "Close Encounters of the First Kind", even in the daytime(!) are quite mistaken. Odd this, because unless I way miss my guess most of you are also drivers. Maybe even primarily drivers.
Yes, one driver saw you. Out of 100 how many others would? Or out of 1000. And BTW, it only takes ONE to not see you and you're done.
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Old 01-30-19, 12:36 PM
  #62  
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Originally Posted by mcours2006 View Post
Yes, one driver saw you. Out of 100 how many others would? Or out of 1000. And BTW, it only takes ONE to not see you and you're done.
You (conveniently?) missed where I said "I SAW HIM". And so I did not put myself in harms way until I was assured it was safe to proceed. I see the YouTubes of the cyclists barreling head down into blind corners and roundabouts and etc. and are surprised and upset when they are hit. They put 100% of the responsibility for their safety on devices, or other people. They aren't even hesitant to post themselves behaving ... carelessly, because of the ingrained entitlement. Interesting that, fearful to the point of paranoia, enough so to record ones rides but incapable of even a modest amount of defensive riding adoption. SMH
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Old 01-30-19, 02:01 PM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by Leisesturm View Post
You (conveniently?) missed where I said "I SAW HIM". And so I did not put myself in harms way until I was assured it was safe to proceed.
Again, a cyclist acted wisely, used his/her own experience to safely negotiate a potentuially dangerous situation ... and gets flamed for it.

Fact is, we are Not generally as invisible or at risk as some of us profess to think. And as @Leisesturm adds ....
Originally Posted by Leisesturm View Post
I see the YouTubes of the cyclists barreling head down into blind corners and roundabouts and etc. and are surprised and upset when they are hit. They put 100% of the responsibility for their safety on devices, or other people. They aren't even hesitant to post themselves behaving ... carelessly, because of the ingrained entitlement. Interesting that, fearful to the point of paranoia, enough so to record ones rides but incapable of even a modest amount of defensive riding adoption. SMH
I place all responsibility for my safety on Myself. I hope other drivers will operate safely, but it is not ideology, it is survival. I have Zero problem letting a few cars by so I can cycle more safely on a winding road ... regardless of my "Right" to hold them up. And I know that at Every intersection, a car could jump the light, try to catch the changing light, simply space out and go for no reason ....

I Ride Safely. not to win debates on BF, but to stay alive and uninjured.

As I mentioned elsewhere ... myself (and a lot of other cyclists with urban riding experience) cringed when we saw the video of that college professor coming up on the right of the truck in that video of the fatal collision in Boston. Regardless of who had the right of way legally, we all could see disaster about to happen.

I do not ride in fear. if I was afraid, I wouldn't ride. I ride with full knowledge that i have zero protection and am 100 percent responsible for my safety. happily most drivers cooperate, and the few who do not, generally don't get a chance to hurt me because i am ready for them.

I rarely agree with @Leisesturm , but here I have to. safe cycling is possible, it is easier than most people here seem to think, and it is the responsibility of the cyclist to survive. Using those ideas, I have survived.

I don't care what ideas others use. I am glad if they also survive.
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Old 01-30-19, 08:10 PM
  #64  
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Originally Posted by Chris0516 View Post
Watch the driving behavior much closer, the next time you are out again.
If you say so it must be true eh?

C'mon over to China and show everyone the PROPER way to use the roads.

I reckon you wouldn't last too long, kinda like that "don't tread on me" guy.

12 years here, and I have yet to be hit by a car, truck, bus etc.

The scooters on the other hand, I have had countless collisions with, lots of them have no brakes, making for a real demolition derby at times.
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Old 01-30-19, 09:13 PM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
Again, a cyclist acted wisely, used his/her own experience to safely negotiate a potentuially dangerous situation ... and gets flamed for it.
I believe he said he was a pedestrian when he negotiated the dangerous task of crossing the street.

But what's important is a driver saw him, and that certainly serves to disprove a lot of mistaken beliefs about the utility of lights. Or something like that.
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Old 01-31-19, 05:47 AM
  #66  
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Originally Posted by Leisesturm View Post
You (conveniently?) missed where I said "I SAW HIM". And so I did not put myself in harms way until I was assured it was safe to proceed. I see the YouTubes of the cyclists barreling head down into blind corners and roundabouts and etc. and are surprised and upset when they are hit. They put 100% of the responsibility for their safety on devices, or other people. They aren't even hesitant to post themselves behaving ... carelessly, because of the ingrained entitlement. Interesting that, fearful to the point of paranoia, enough so to record ones rides but incapable of even a modest amount of defensive riding adoption. SMH
No, you were quite emphatic about the driver seeing you. I assumed that was your point.

We are all responsibility for our own safety. I wouldn't put my safety in the hands of strangers, some of whom may be drunk, high, distracted, or just plain stupid, if I can help it. If that's your point, then, yeah, I concur.
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Old 01-31-19, 10:06 AM
  #67  
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Originally Posted by KraneXL View Post
You proceed from an incorrect premise if you feel taking the lane is not a safety measure. Taking the lane doesn't make you invincible nor is that the intention. The intent is to be seen, and more importantly, to notify motorists that the road is too narrow to pass safely.

The idea that people may hit you is always a reality but never an absolute. The laws are clear, and the solution is simple: you move to the side you encourage passing, when you're in the center, you discourage it.
Do motorists know that? Is it specifically part of their training? Or do they believe that you're just being a rude, erratic daredevil by weaving in and out of traffic where you don't belong in the first place?

Naturally, that's not my view, because I'm a cyclist, and I've ridden in traffic. But communication between two people requires both of them understand the message in the same way. If drivers don't understand what you're communicating, then "taking the lane" is not achieving the purpose that you expect. The perceptions and behavior of motorists determines whether "taking the lane" is a safety measure or not. This is what seems to be in doubt.
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Old 01-31-19, 10:55 AM
  #68  
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Originally Posted by Gresp15C View Post
Do motorists know that? Is it specifically part of their training? Or do they believe that you're just being a rude, erratic daredevil by weaving in and out of traffic where you don't belong in the first place?

Naturally, that's not my view, because I'm a cyclist, and I've ridden in traffic. But communication between two people requires both of them understand the message in the same way. If drivers don't understand what you're communicating, then "taking the lane" is not achieving the purpose that you expect. The perceptions and behavior of motorists determines whether "taking the lane" is a safety measure or not. This is what seems to be in doubt.
Oh man, did you NAIL it or what Gresp? This right here folks. You can argue all day about it but you can't dispute the truth of it.
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Old 01-31-19, 11:04 AM
  #69  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
I rarely agree with @Leisesturm ...
Hmmm. I'm going have to do something about that ...
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Old 01-31-19, 09:51 PM
  #70  
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Originally Posted by Gresp15C View Post
The perceptions and behavior of motorists determines whether "taking the lane" is a safety measure or not.
I find the behavior of motorists indicates they understand perfectly well why I'm riding in the lane when I'm riding in the lane. Riding in a manner appropriate for the conditions works for everyone.
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Old 01-31-19, 11:14 PM
  #71  
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Originally Posted by jon c. View Post
I find the behavior of motorists indicates they understand perfectly well why I'm riding in the lane when I'm riding in the lane. Riding in a manner appropriate for the conditions works for everyone.
Interesting. I wondered now many of the fatal car bike interactions last year occurred in Florida. First Google hit and we get this wisdom, to wit: "On a per capita basis, Florida recorded an annual average of about 5.7 cyclist deaths per million residents, by far the most of any state". So, yeah, go ahead and try to convince me that the cagers are feeling you when you assert your right to an equal share of the road. The numbers don't lie. You are heaping up wrath against the day of anger every time you refuse to cede the right hand tire track.
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Old 02-01-19, 03:01 AM
  #72  
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Originally Posted by Gresp15C View Post
Do motorists know that? Is it specifically part of their training? Or do they believe that you're just being a rude, erratic daredevil by weaving in and out of traffic where you don't belong in the first place?
Making sure the law is understood is an issue for law enforcement. I have no control over those types of situations.

Naturally, that's not my view, because I'm a cyclist, and I've ridden in traffic. But communication between two people requires both of them understand the message in the same way. If drivers don't understand what you're communicating, then "taking the lane" is not achieving the purpose that you expect. The perceptions and behavior of motorists determines whether "taking the lane" is a safety measure or not. This is what seems to be in doubt.
You get hit in the center you have some chance for recompense. Get hit on the edge of the road and good luck trying to convince a judge or jury that you were in the right. All I can say is, I'll take my chance in the center and the law supports it.
Originally Posted by Leisesturm View Post
Interesting. I wondered now many of the fatal car bike interactions last year occurred in Florida. First Google hit and we get this wisdom, to wit: "On a per capita basis, Florida recorded an annual average of about 5.7 cyclist deaths per million residents, by far the most of any state". So, yeah, go ahead and try to convince me that the cagers are feeling you when you assert your right to an equal share of the road. The numbers don't lie. You are heaping up wrath against the day of anger every time you refuse to cede the right hand tire track.
Perhaps not, but they can be manipulated. Florida is a leisure state with warm weather -- the warmest in the nation -- most of the year. That by itself increases the amount of people that will be outside and riding bikes.

Last edited by KraneXL; 02-01-19 at 09:56 AM.
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Old 02-01-19, 07:19 AM
  #73  
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Originally Posted by Leisesturm View Post
The numbers don't lie. You are heaping up wrath against the day of anger every time you refuse to cede the right hand tire track.
The numbers may not lie, but they tell you absolutely nothing relevant to the discussion at hand. Conditions of course vary depending on locality, but where I live and ride I find that riding in a cooperative manner doesn't result in angry drivers. I don't find that the vast majority of drivers are angry and hate cyclists. They want to get where they're going but as long as you don't unduly delay them they have no problem with cyclists. Of course I encounter angry or overly aggressive drivers once in a while, but they aren't that common and they aren't the drivers I want to have squeezing past me in an unsafe spot.
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Old 02-01-19, 07:41 AM
  #74  
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Originally Posted by jon c. View Post
The numbers may not lie, but they tell you absolutely nothing relevant to the discussion at hand. Conditions of course vary depending on locality, but where I live and ride I find that riding in a cooperative manner doesn't result in angry drivers. I don't find that the vast majority of drivers are angry and hate cyclists. They want to get where they're going but as long as you don't unduly delay them they have no problem with cyclists. Of course I encounter angry or overly aggressive drivers once in a while, but they aren't that common and they aren't the drivers I want to have squeezing past me in an unsafe spot.
Location is everything.

Its not just your position on the road, also it often depends on the local attitudes towards cyclists in your area.

There are no absolutes.

Expect the unexpected.
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Old 02-01-19, 09:02 AM
  #75  
wphamilton
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Originally Posted by Gresp15C View Post
Do motorists know that? Is it specifically part of their training? Or do they believe that you're just being a rude, erratic daredevil by weaving in and out of traffic where you don't belong in the first place?

Naturally, that's not my view, because I'm a cyclist, and I've ridden in traffic. But communication between two people requires both of them understand the message in the same way. If drivers don't understand what you're communicating, then "taking the lane" is not achieving the purpose that you expect. The perceptions and behavior of motorists determines whether "taking the lane" is a safety measure or not. This is what seems to be in doubt.
I don't like being directly in front of cars moving much faster than me, so I don't take the lane - the tire track - very often unless I have to. But when I do, communication is the last thing I want from it. Turn signals, brake lights and horn are communications. When I'm there, it is purely so that a car driver cannot pass me completely within the lane, and that is a safety measure regardless of what the motorist thinks about it. The only thing communicated is "I am not yielding way here".

I'm pressing this point because it looks like you've assigned "communication" as the sole purpose of taking the lane. It's better IMO, driving OR riding, that we don't communicate at all with other drivers other than by standard signals and legal yields and so on. Those communications are generally extra or outside of normal traffic parameters and disruptive more often than not. I'll wave a hesitant driver by sometimes but that's when they've become disruptive already, and that's about it for "extra" communicating. I'm not talking about waving to a friend or that sort of thing, but I AM talking about directing traffic or instructing someone, outside of the normal rules of traffic.
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