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20 is Plenty Campaign

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Old 12-31-18, 01:23 PM
  #26  
CliffordK
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Originally Posted by Feldman View Post
I live in a Washington suburb of Portland, and drive more like 20KPH on small residential streets. PDX and Seattle have real streets in residential areas--we have minimal to no sidewalks, no lighting, inconsistent shoulders. I drive like a rolling speed bump when I'm in the car. The general behavior in my town, especially of white men in large SUVs and trucks, is to interpret 25 MPH as 45.
Yep, my old neighborhood in Portland was like that. No sidewalks. People walking on the streets, walking dogs on the streets, & etc.

Portland refuses to repave the road, and it was bad in the mid 1990's.. worse today. Except Portland recently repaved the road 2 blocks away just to spite us.

So, it is like a continuous rolling speedbump the entire length of the road.

Of course, some SUV drivers don't care if they pound 100 potholes to go a block.
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Old 01-02-19, 04:18 AM
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Maelochs
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Seems to me that the danger for most cyclists come on roads which wouldn't be affected by these new proposed speeds anyway.

Not hat anything would change without major enforcement efforts repeated over a span of time.
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Old 01-02-19, 09:29 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
Not hat anything would change without major enforcement efforts repeated over a span of time.
Perhaps one doesn't need major enforcement if one can simply convince people that "20 is plenty". SLOW DOWN.

I don't really care if a person is driving 15 or 25, as long as they're doing it safely.

It apparently is law, but the only signs I've seen are those funky orange signs posted above.



We are getting to a point where the police could respond to complaints that if a person regularly was going too fast, they could install a hidden traffic cam, and snag them.

Many neighborhood drivers regularly hit the same streets.
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Old 01-02-19, 09:43 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
Seems to me that the danger for most cyclists come on roads which wouldn't be affected by these new proposed speeds anyway.

Not hat anything would change without major enforcement efforts repeated over a span of time.
Massachusetts is pretty much a perfect experiment.

On November 7, 2016, M.G.L. Chapter 90 Section 17C and Chapter 90 Section 18B went into effect.

This gave cities and towns the ability to opt-in to 25 mph citywide/townwide "thickly settled" statutory speed limit unless otherwise posted, or on a street-by-street basis, and also gave cities and towns the ability to set "safety zones" of 20 mph.

In Cambridge (our fair city) MA the new citywide speed limit became 25 mph on December 8, 2016, and then established 20 mph safety zones on March 1, 2018.

EVERY MAJOR SQUARE is now a safety zone. These are areas of high motor traffic, high pedestrian traffic, and high bicycle traffic.
The squares in particular are our HC "mountains." People driving cars KILL and seriously injure people on foot and people on bikes on these "mountains."

The danger to MOST CYCLISTS and MOST PEDESTRIANS comes from people driving cars and trucks on exactly the roads, the streets and the squares where the reduced speed limits are now in effect.

Even massholes have slowed down. It is making a huge difference.


Now back to your regularly scheduled A&S uninformed cynicism. (Or is it narcissism?)

-mr. bill
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Old 01-02-19, 02:04 PM
  #30  
Maelochs
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
Seems to me that the danger for most cyclists come on roads which wouldn't be affected by these new proposed speeds anyway.

Not that anything would change without major enforcement efforts repeated over a span of time.
Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
Perhaps one doesn't need major enforcement if one can simply convince people that "20 is plenty". SLOW DOWN.

I don't really care if a person is driving 15 or 25, as long as they're doing it safely.

It apparently is law, but the only signs I've seen are those funky orange signs posted above.
Until cops started parking once a week ro so randomly on a short stretch of road near my home, "Speed limit 30" meant "speed limit 45+." After a bunch of tickets and warnings over a few months,the cops didn't need to come back---but until that happened, the posted speed was "Faster."
Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
Many neighborhood drivers regularly hit the same streets.
That's what made it work. People who didn't get stopped noticed the cops as they passed them, and people who did get stopped, got a ticket or a warning.

Seeing a cop there several times a week made people slow down just in case.

Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
We are getting to a point where the police could respond to complaints that if a person regularly was going too fast, they could install a hidden traffic cam, and snag them.
Sounds like a great idea. Might be some issues with butt-biting DUI-type lawyers claiming "You cannot prove my client was at the wheel" but I think ti would be worthwhile as an experiment. Camera placement would be an issue---can't be on private property without permission and can't be vulnerable to vandals. But I am sure something could be done.

I am not so sure that simply seeing a sign would cause a behavior change---people are already quite skilled at ignoring posted speed limits. But ... there is no reason such a change would be Impossible, even if I think it might be improbable. I hop-e, for the sake of the cyclists, that it works.
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Old 01-02-19, 02:24 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
Sounds like a great idea. Might be some issues with butt-biting DUI-type lawyers claiming "You cannot prove my client was at the wheel" but I think ti would be worthwhile as an experiment. Camera placement would be an issue---can't be on private property without permission and can't be vulnerable to vandals. But I am sure something could be done.

I am not so sure that simply seeing a sign would cause a behavior change---people are already quite skilled at ignoring posted speed limits. But ... there is no reason such a change would be Impossible, even if I think it might be improbable. I hop-e, for the sake of the cyclists, that it works.
Many municipalities have gone with big trailers which can be parked on the street with reader boards & etc. But, I was thinking of something smaller that could be attached to existing telephone poles and sign posts. Will we still have telephone poles if we nave no telephones?

Sometimes the driver is visible with camera photos, sometimes not. However, in regions that have a "Point System", they usually do the camera enforcement with no points. Thus, it can go against the registered owner of the car, and not the driver.

Theft and vandalism could be a problem, but could be reduced with real-time WIFI or satellite uploads, GPS tracking, and very hefty fines.
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Old 01-02-19, 02:25 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by mr_bill View Post
Massachusetts is pretty much a perfect experiment.
So many directions to travel from that beginning .....

Originally Posted by mr_bill View Post
In Cambridge (our fair city) MA the new citywide speed limit became 25 mph on December 8, 2016, and then established 20 mph safety zones on March 1, 2018.
Well, with cycling maniacs like that guy @jim_ from_Boston on the roads daily, Something had to give---and obviously He is incorrigible. had to change everyone else.
Originally Posted by mr_bill View Post
is now a safety zone. These are areas of high motor traffic, high pedestrian traffic, and high bicycle traffic.
That university professor was killed after that law was passed?
Originally Posted by mr_bill View Post
The danger to MOST CYCLISTS and MOST PEDESTRIANS comes from people driving cars and trucks on exactly the roads, the streets and the squares where the reduced speed limits are now in effect.
Let's see, though. That university professor was involved in a low-speed collision. A lot of collisions, it seems to me, come at intersections like you note, but not all of them are speed-related. Most seem to come from low awareness---nobody looks around, nobody thinks.

The guy trying to catch the end of the red light and make a turn across a few lanes of traffic as the light goes green the other way, the guy trying to make the right turn when stopped traffic blocks his view to the left (one of my particular fears,) the guy who got in the wrong lane and wants to leave early to cut across a lane of traffic to make a turn----basically any driver watching out for cars, because they are the most likely not to see a bike even if it is right there---those seem to be main causes.

I am not so worried about the occasional close pass on a rural road. Big intersections are a lot more worrisome. And it is people in cars going from zero-to 20 that often make the dumbest moves.

Originally Posted by mr_bill View Post
Even massholes have slowed down. It is making a huge difference.
Can't kill 'em all, (and there might be a couple worth saving,) so I guess slowing them down is the next best option. (I am acquainted with the region--the only good thing I could say would be, "Better than New Yorkers." Send them all to New Jersey, I say. ) Hopefully the lower speeds results in fewer injuries.

Odd, though .... I have cycled every part of a certain justly maligned state, from the mountains in the west to the sand bar in the far east, and never had the kind of issues I later found in the Greater Orlando, Florida region. I put it down to New Yorkers moving south.

Originally Posted by mr_bill View Post
Now back to your regularly scheduled A&S uninformed cynicism. (Or is it narcissism?)
Megalomaniacal negativity? Solipsistic depression?

So long as it is uninformed, it has a place here.
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Old 01-02-19, 02:36 PM
  #33  
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There is an element of watching and emulating what other people do. I think the more I ride on the road, the more people learn to pass slowing down and giving a wide berth. Of course, not all, but quite a few.

I've noticed it especially with school buses. The more I see, the more conscientious they seem to be. I suppose I can work on cameras a bit more... and then a few notes off to school districts, and they'll be crawling past me.

That, of course, is also a reason that some freeways will roll at 70 MPH in a 55 MPH zone..
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Old 01-02-19, 02:52 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
There is an element of watching and emulating what other people do. I think the more I ride on the road, the more people learn to pass slowing down and giving a wide berth. Of course, not all, but quite a few.
With so many drivers and only one me ... I am not sure that I ever see the same driver twice. I think in some areas people might be growing generally more aware that there might occasionally be cyclists and squeezing past them might lead to insurance issues.

I have definitely seen fewer close calls and a Lot more courteous driving in the past year.

Two nights ago I was in a left-turn lane at a light and a driver asked me if I was going straight or turning. He wasn't angry or snotty--he was quite willing to have me go first or whatever, he just wanted to make sure he know what to expect. I was pretty pleased at that, particularly because I have had some near-collision events at that intersection when bonehead drivers decided to cross multiple lanes of traffic to pass slower cars in the intersection and such.

You seem to have less A&S uninformed cynicism than most. I hope the others let you stay.
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Old 01-02-19, 03:08 PM
  #35  
CliffordK
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
With so many drivers and only one me ... I am not sure that I ever see the same driver twice. I think in some areas people might be growing generally more aware that there might occasionally be cyclists and squeezing past them might lead to insurance issues.

I have definitely seen fewer close calls and a Lot more courteous driving in the past year.

Two nights ago I was in a left-turn lane at a light and a driver asked me if I was going straight or turning. He wasn't angry or snotty--he was quite willing to have me go first or whatever, he just wanted to make sure he know what to expect. I was pretty pleased at that, particularly because I have had some near-collision events at that intersection when bonehead drivers decided to cross multiple lanes of traffic to pass slower cars in the intersection and such.

You seem to have less A&S uninformed cynicism than most. I hope the others let you stay.
Oh, I've almost been ostracized from this sub-forum for approaching problems from the idea of what a cyclist can do to be safer, rather than what the rest of the world must do.

I'm pretty sure that I get repeatedly passed by some drivers, although, I have to say that all cars look the same.

Even in the city, if I get passed by 200 drivers a day for 200 days a year, that comes up to 40,000 drivers a year. It wouldn't take long to be passed by everyone in a moderate sized city.

I have had a few annoying close calls in the last year, but a lot of courteous drivers too. For right hooks, it is not uncommon for a car to pull up to my left, then slow or stop until I pass.

I had a Fly6, but it stopped charging. I suppose I need to take it apart and see what is inside. I recently snagged a used Go-Pro Hero. Pretty old model, but it should work at once I get the mounts straightened out. Handlebars or Helmet?

I can't say if I'll start lodging formal complaints, but perhaps a couple. Excessive SMOKE?
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Old 01-05-19, 10:33 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by jefnvk View Post
If a road needs to be less than 25MPH, it should be a dead end and not used as any sort of throughput, plain and simple. 20MPH in my car is about idling revs in 2nd, I really have no interest in running through town at 4000RPM in 1st.

And if your kids can't keep from running in front of cars, keep them in the back yard. If I'm driving like my kids live there, I am driving 30 anyhow.
My exact thoughts, all of it.

In my previous car, 2nd gear would be way too low in RPM to use. 1st gear would be just fine, but the torque in this car peaking at 1950 RPM meant that in 1st gear, blowing your breath down towards the throttle pedal would launch the car. I hated and avoided as much as possible 15 mph school zones in this car for this reason.

Feel the same about the stupid "drive like your kids live here" signs. I want to stop and knock on their door to let them know I do no matter what speed I'm driving because I taught my kids not to run out into the road from the time they achieved self mobility.
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Old 01-05-19, 11:16 PM
  #37  
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Keep in mind that the 20 is Plenty is only about the smaller neighborhood streets. Any that have any size to them have higher speed limits. So, a few blocks at 20 MPH, then pop up to 35 or 40 MPH.

Here are a couple of examples of the Portland neighborhood PUBLIC streets... I think 20 MPH might be a little high.




The photos don't do them justice.

Although, that second one would be tough to get uphill without at least a little momentum, and perhaps a high clearance 4x4.
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Old 01-08-19, 08:05 AM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post

Here are a couple of examples of the Portland neighborhood PUBLIC streets... I think 20 MPH might be a little high.


I don't think I could find a public road around here in that sort of condition. 20 would seem plenty on a road like that.

We have a legislature that likes to "cut taxes," but being a relatively low tax state they often try to limit the taxes collected by localities as they can't find any statewide taxes to reduce. As a homeowner, the last thing I want is to see my property taxes reduced. I want my county to have to money to keep all the roads well paved.

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Old 01-08-19, 09:59 AM
  #39  
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Cyclists aren't speed limited by law in the UK.
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Old 01-08-19, 10:36 AM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by jon c. View Post
Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
I don't think I could find a public road around here in that sort of condition. 20 would seem plenty on a road like that.

We have a legislature that likes to "cut taxes," but being a relatively low tax state they often try to limit the taxes collected by localities as they can't find any statewide taxes to reduce. As a homeowner, the last thing I want is to see my property taxes reduced. I want my county to have to money to keep all the roads well paved.
As I understand it, the problem with that neighborhood is that it was mostly built up in the 1940's and 1950's without sidewalks.

As you can see from the house on the left in the photo, over the years, many of the houses have landscaped their lots to the side of the street without sidewalks, so retrofitting sidewalks would be a major disruption.

So, the city collects taxes, but refuses to repave the road because of the lack of sidewalks (which, of course, would be charged back to the homeowners who don't want them).

Nearby there are many more through roads that are maintained even without the sidewalks. However, this road does connect at both ends, but still is a low volume street so it doesn't get maintained by the city.

And, on the flip side, because it is not maintained, it remains a low-speed low volume road, and there is some debate as to the benefits of natural speed bumps.

More than any neighborhood I've seen, people are comfortable walking in the streets because nobody moves quickly.

Also, we do get rain, but gutters and storm sewers don't seem to be necessary either.
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Old 01-08-19, 03:33 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by jefnvk View Post
If a road needs to be less than 25MPH, it should be a dead end and not used as any sort of throughput, plain and simple. 20MPH in my car is about idling revs in 2nd, I really have no interest in running through town at 4000RPM in 1st.

And if your kids can't keep from running in front of cars, keep them in the back yard. If I'm driving like my kids live there, I am driving 30 anyhow.

Originally Posted by mrodgers View Post
My exact thoughts, all of it.

In my previous car, 2nd gear would be way too low in RPM to use. 1st gear would be just fine, but the torque in this car peaking at 1950 RPM meant that in 1st gear, blowing your breath down towards the throttle pedal would launch the car. I hated and avoided as much as possible 15 mph school zones in this car for this reason.
OK, you two gear heads. I don't believe you. Tell me the size tires, your final drive, and your gear ratios. One wonders how you would manage in stop and go traffic on an LA "freeway." Let alone how you get from the grid to staging at an autocross.

Here's a 20 mph stroad in Cambridge (our fair city) MA. No schools, no dead ends, no potholes. Even massholes manage 20 mph here now.

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Old 01-08-19, 05:17 PM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by mr_bill View Post
OK, you two gear heads. I don't believe you. Tell me the size tires, your final drive, and your gear ratios. One wonders how you would manage in stop and go traffic on an LA "freeway." Let alone how you get from the grid to staging at an autocross.

Here's a 20 mph stroad in Cambridge (our fair city) MA. No schools, no dead ends, no potholes. Even massholes manage 20 mph here now.

-mr. bill
Not a clue. Could tell you them them up for my Corvette, haven't got the slightest on the Fusion. All I know is in my 25MPH lake town with those stupid signs, I sneak through barely touching the gas.

If I were staging for AutoX in that car, I'd probably get it moving and then push in the clutch and coast, not to mention last time I did one the pit road speed limit was about 5 anyhow. I do Detroit traffic stop and go the exact same way.

In any case, if they really need to be 20, that doesn't change my thoughts they need to be shut down as throughput.
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Old 01-08-19, 06:20 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post

More than any neighborhood I've seen, people are comfortable walking in the streets because nobody moves quickly.
15 years ago, we still had a number of dirt roads in residential areas and in many cases the residents did not want their road paved as they wanted to keep traffic slow and keep volume low. Sidewalks weren't part of the equation as they aren't common outside the center city area. First they paved the roads where they could get 50% of the residents to agree. Then they paved the rest regardless of objections as they were determined to eliminate dirt roads. Although in one case near me on a road that did not connect to anything they simply abandoned their interest in the right of way and it became a private road. As a cyclist, I've appreciated this as it expanded riding options. But I can understand how the residents felt. Especially at this time of year when walking dogs after work in the near dark. The traffic is much heavier and many drive too fast. I take one road home from work every day that I never drove when it was dirt and I do try to slow way down for the dog walkers. But on these narrow roads, I've had people actually pass me when I'm going 30.
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Old 01-09-19, 05:53 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by jefnvk View Post
Not a clue.
Shocking. Most miles of roads in German cities are 30 km/h. They are not dead end streets.

P.S. On a 30 km/h street, if you drive at 33 km/h, you risk a ticket.

Take it to fahren fahren fahren auf der Autobahn!

-mr. bill



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Old 01-09-19, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by mr_bill View Post
Shocking.
Yeah, real shocking that because I can tell you 20mph falls between two gears in my car because I drive through that range every day, I can't tell you the transmission and axle ratios on a ten year old econobox that I've never had reason to look up

As to what Germany does, good for them, this isn't Germany. Having driven around Europe, those roads tend to be tight urban streets where one can't safely do even 20mph. If our not built on an old horsepath roads between two three century old apartments and decently spacious with good sight roads here truly needs to be 20mph for safety, it needs to be designed in a matter that its local traffic only, which those generally are. Part of designing safer roads for all is the basic understanding that cars are indeed road users, the the effective and efficient flow of them is a prime consideration.
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Old 01-10-19, 08:21 AM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by jefnvk View Post
If a road needs to be less than 25MPH, it should be a dead end and not used as any sort of throughput, plain and simple. 20MPH in my car is about idling revs in 2nd, I really have no interest in running through town at 4000RPM in 1st.
Originally Posted by jefnvk View Post
Yeah, real shocking that because I can tell you 20mph falls between two gears in my car because I drive through that range every day, I can't tell you the transmission and axle ratios on a ten year old econobox that I've never had reason to look up
Which "10 year old econobox" does 20 mph at about 1000 rpm in 2nd gear?

Originally Posted by jefnvk View Post
As to what Germany does, good for them, this isn't Germany. Having driven around Europe, those roads tend to be tight urban streets where one can't safely do even 20mph. If our not built on an old horsepath roads between two three century old apartments and decently spacious with good sight roads here truly needs to be 20mph for safety, it needs to be designed in a matter that its local traffic only, which those generally are. Part of designing safer roads for all is the basic understanding that cars are indeed road users, the the effective and efficient flow of them is a prime consideration.
You are aware of a large world event that ended about 70 years ago?

-mr. bill

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Old 01-11-19, 03:08 PM
  #47  
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Boston has a default 25mph speed limit as of January 2017

https://www.boston.gov/news/bostons-...ive-jan-9-2017
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Old 01-11-19, 05:49 PM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by parkbrav View Post
Boston has a default 25mph speed limit as of January 2017

https://www.boston.gov/news/bostons-...ive-jan-9-2017
Which would mean nothing where I live. There isn't one stretch of two lane traffic, no matter the speed. Someone isn't riding your butt. It could be anywhere from 20 to 55 mph. I've seen people blow by on a 4 lane neighbourhood road that's 35mph. Like it's the Indy 500. One jerk tried to past me on the shoulder because 55 wasn't fast enough for him. Speed limits mean nothing here.
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Old 01-15-19, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Rollfast View Post
If you've ever seen the shape of some Portland roads...20 would be fine.
I've lately thought failure to fix potholes on sidestreets is an element of an effective traffic-calming campaign.
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Old 01-15-19, 04:08 PM
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I think the 18 mph idea may have come from Sweden. At least when I was reading up on Vision Zero concepts, Sweden had done research that said the injury consequences were in some way acceptably manageable if the vehicle speed was 18 or less. I think it was expected to limit pedestrian fatality to zero. I'd assume you'd want to have the same vehicle speed limits on streets where cyclists are expected not to be separated from motorized traffic.
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