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David Smith in trouble again

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David Smith in trouble again

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Old 01-09-19, 01:50 PM
  #126  
Paul Barnard
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post

@Paul Barnard , You tell Us when you think he violated the law---you said above you thought he did. Then you tell us what you think the law should say. Then we will have something to discuss----assuming You want to spend the time imagining all that stuff and imagining imaginary responses. I am more interested in this one very real case. if I am going to spend my life imagining, I will imagine pleasant things.
I also said above, I couldn't put a finger on when. That's part of why I asked the forum. It's almost as if you think I am baiting with my questions. They aren't loaded at all. We have a standard of reasonableness in the law and I am always interested in what reasonable people think. The reasonable standard is pervasive in our law, and like you, I think it's a generally good standard. At times though it can be a bit difficult or troubling to apply. In this case, I'd say that impeding took place (in the link I provided) when he looked behind and realized that several drivers were unwilling to pass him.
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Old 01-09-19, 02:14 PM
  #127  
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Originally Posted by rseeker View Post
" You see a biker and then you see 10 or 15 people behind him. "

They're acting like ten or fifteen cars is a lot. Sure it's courteous to take turns and let some cars pass, and apparently (from the article) the law requires it, but if 10 or 15 cars is the basis of the complaint I think they're complaining over nothing. If the law requires pulling over any time there's a car behind you, then a high-traffic road would preclude riding because progress would be so slow for the rider.
It is a lot. I've never had close to that number backed up behind me. That's either a very busy road (too busy for me) or you've been obstructing traffic for a long time.
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Old 01-09-19, 02:23 PM
  #128  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
The idea is "Share the road," not "Drive like you are the only person on the road who matters." Cyclists always complain that drivers treat bikes as (at best) second-class road users, or as impediments, or opposing forces, or ignore us altogether.

When a cyclist does the same ... we support him?

I have been riding on the road for about five decades. I have never had much problem at all. As I have gained experience, I have gotten better at safely interacting with cars so that all of us get where we need to be with minimal delay or impediment.

This guy apparently has chosen a different path---and it has left him where it has left him. If he is happy in jail, then he is wise to have persisted. If he would rather be riding his bike, then I'd say he has handled this matter badly.

People can argue all they want. I have yet you see one bit of sense explained here, which would make me or others safer while cycling. So ... what are you all fighting about? It obviously isn't about making cycling safer.

How is it that so many of us can cycle so often and cover so many miles and not end up in either the hospital or in jail? How is it that this guy cannot?

I am pretty sure that when it comes to following examples, I don't want to follow a path that leads to incarceration.

This guy Mr. Smith, who seems ot be a hero to some posters, will be eating prison food today. I will be safely and happily riding my bike in traffic.

We all make choices.
Yep.
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Old 01-09-19, 02:37 PM
  #129  
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There are hundreds of thousands of cyclists (millions?) that ride regularly, including many in the same area as this guy. The overwhelming majority of us manage to do so without getting arrested and sent to prison. Chances are, the problem here is with this guy, not the legal system.
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Old 01-10-19, 09:41 AM
  #130  
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I admit that I don't know enough about this case to make a judgment, but I do know that you can't just ignore court orders. I am not a lawyer, but when a judge issues a court order prohibiting you from doing something, even if the ruling infringes upon your rights, if you violate the court order then you're guilty of contempt of court and can be thrown in jail. The best thing for him would have been to hire a lawyer to fight it if it's a bad ruling rather than to take the law into his own hands and risk even more jail time.

I have a feeling that since he thinks he can ignore a judge's order then this goes way beyond the "innocent bicyclist harassed by corrupt court restricting his rights" narrative I'm sure he's pushing.
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Old 01-10-19, 09:43 AM
  #131  
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Originally Posted by OBoile View Post
There are hundreds of thousands of cyclists (millions?) that ride regularly, including many in the same area as this guy. The overwhelming majority of us manage to do so without getting arrested and sent to prison. Chances are, the problem here is with this guy, not the legal system.
I agree. I've never once been ticketed or even admonished by a police officer over the way I handle my bike. There's way more to the story than he's letting on, and if I cared enough about it I might read up on it. But he's made his bed and now he has to lie in it.
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Old 01-11-19, 07:38 AM
  #132  
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Originally Posted by Paul Barnard View Post
I also said above, I couldn't put a finger on when. That's part of why I asked the forum. It's almost as if you think I am baiting with my questions. They aren't loaded at all. We have a standard of reasonableness in the law and I am always interested in what reasonable people think. The reasonable standard is pervasive in our law, and like you, I think it's a generally good standard. At times though it can be a bit difficult or troubling to apply. In this case, I'd say that impeding took place (in the link I provided) when he looked behind and realized that several drivers were unwilling to pass him.
It's hard to say definitively from a video, but it looks to me as if he is intentionally going slowly with the intent to annoy. He is riding in a manner in which I would never ride. But I'm not certain whether or not that constitutes a violation of the law in that jurisdiction. Obviously the judge thought so.
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Old 01-11-19, 09:22 AM
  #133  
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Originally Posted by jon c. View Post
It's hard to say definitively from a video, but it looks to me as if he is intentionally going slowly with the intent to annoy. He is riding in a manner in which I would never ride. But I'm not certain whether or not that constitutes a violation of the law in that jurisdiction. Obviously the judge thought so.

Part of the reason I bowed out of the discussion of the video is I don't think it was any part of the evidence used against him at trial, so I didn't see the point in picking it apart. This is just some cell phone stuff that happened to air on TV.

And not to nitpick, but I think it was significant that he was convicted in a jury trial, so it wasn't just a judge.
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Old 01-11-19, 11:36 AM
  #134  
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Juries and judges can be wrong. "Wrong" in a legal sense is a very different concept also.

Most people who cycle on the road see this man's behavior as unfriendly and potentially dangerous at least. Even that "proves" nothing.

What this discussion has been good for, IMO, is that it has allowed a few of us to exchange ideas, and to actually discuss---not fight over---different points and points of view.

As is common on any public forum, most of the thread was people screeching, "I am right, you are wrong." (I can get a bit shrill myself---I realize this.) In the end, this sort of tapered off into a rational discussion.
I think the basic ideas have been thrashed to the point there is only chaff left.

I am not suggesting that no one else post here ... or that I will not check back from time to time. But the facts have been established, and there haven't been many new interpretations.

I am not at all surprised that most posters who watch the videos realize that whether it is deemed illegal or not, the man's behavior is asinine, potential dangerous, and reflects badly on cyclists as a group.

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Old 01-11-19, 06:36 PM
  #135  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
Juries and judges can be wrong. "Wrong" in a legal sense is a very different concept also.

Most people who cycle on the road see this man's behavior as unfriendly and potentially dangerous at least. Even that "proves" nothing.

What this discussion has been good for, IMO, is that it has allowed a few of us to exchange ideas, and to actually discuss---not fight over---different points and points of view.

As is common on any public forum, most of the thread was people screeching, "I am right, you are wrong." (I can get a bit shrill myself---I realize this.) In the end, this sort of tapered off into a rational discussion.
I think the basic ideas have been thrashed to the point there is only chaff left.

I am not suggesting that no one else post here ... or that I will not check back from time to time. But the facts have been established, and there haven't been many new interpretations.

I am not at all surprised that most posters who watch the videos realize that whether it is deemed illegal or not, the man's behavior is asinine, potential dangerous, and reflects badly on cyclists as a group.
This.
Well said
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Old 01-11-19, 07:27 PM
  #136  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
...whether it is deemed illegal or not, the man's behavior is asinine, potential dangerous, and reflects badly on cyclists as a group.
Originally Posted by JoeyBike View Post
As I have said a million times regarding interactions with traffic on public roadways: "Just because you CAN, doesn't mean you SHOULD" - Me
Got to quote myself TWICE in one week!
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Old 01-15-19, 03:55 PM
  #137  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
I agree completely. He moves even Further left, and slows so much he almost loses control ---I wouldn't pass him at that point. he might fall in front of me.

.
This is what would concern me the most if I was the driver. I try very hard to be predictable when I ride (sort of like boating on a lake) because there are other users out there trying to make decisions. If I was driving and going to pass someone on a bike and they suddenly did something unpredictable, I would worry about what they were going to do next. At that point there are just too many variables.
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Old 01-15-19, 04:45 PM
  #138  
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Originally Posted by GamblerGORD53 View Post
VC is blocking ONE lane. Riding on the center line is blocking BOTH lanes. Pffft.
Nowhere in the definition of VC, Does it say anything about blocking the lane. 'Taking the lane', is not blocking the lane.

Agreed, Riding the yellow line isn't smart at all.
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Old 01-15-19, 07:51 PM
  #139  
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Originally Posted by Chris0516 View Post
Nowhere in the definition of VC, Does it say anything about blocking the lane. 'Taking the lane', is not blocking the lane.:
If "taking the lane" was not "blocking the lane" then it wouldn't work because cars could still pass you. Taking the lane absolutely is "blocking the lane." I know, because I have been doing it for decades. I do it because it usually works. Sometimes cars will still push by, even using the oncoming traffic lane--which they wouldn't have to do if I were not blocking the lane. Sometimes cars will push through to the point of endangering me, at which point I will move aside rather than getting knocked aside. But absolutely, "Taking the lane" is blocking the lane. That is the whole point of it---blocking any other traffic from using that part of that lane.
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Old 01-15-19, 08:22 PM
  #140  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
ITaking the lane" is blocking the lane. That is the whole point of it---blocking any other traffic from using that part of that lane.
I have not been keeping up with this thread. That being said, when I take the lane, my intention is to "BLOCK" the lane.. Otherwise, what's the point?

To some, the word "Blocking" means the blocker is stationary. In my case, on my bicycle, when I "block" the lane, everyone behind me is STILL MOVING, unless we are all stopped a red light or a freight train. "Taking" the lane and "Blocking" the lane means different things technically. If I wanted to drive 55 mph, and got stuck behind a vehicle doing 9mph, I might feel like they are blocking the lane, but I do not think you are blocking anything if you are moving.

Semantics.

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Old 01-15-19, 08:33 PM
  #141  
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No easy answers with taking the lane. On a two lane country road my friend and I took the lane to make a left into a major college campus entrance. We were both signaling a left and in my mirror I saw a car behind slow to wait for us to turn. Just as we turned another car behind that one started to pass him and slammed/locked his brakes and almost killed us. We were lucky by a split second. Can't win when a driver wants to illgally pass everybody. We would have been "dead right" though........
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Old 01-16-19, 02:27 AM
  #142  
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Originally Posted by Ald1 View Post
No easy answers with taking the lane. On a two lane country road my friend and I took the lane to make a left into a major college campus entrance. We were both signaling a left and in my mirror I saw a car behind slow to wait for us to turn. Just as we turned another car behind that one started to pass him and slammed/locked his brakes and almost killed us. We were lucky by a split second. Can't win when a driver wants to illgally pass everybody. We would have been "dead right" though........
Interesting. I was just trying to explain this to @Chris0516 in another thread (Taking The Lane, post #34 .) Some driver will risk their own lives and everyone else's to gain twenty feet of pavement.

Last fall I was riding with a couple friend---i was behind, they were two abreast. A guy in a municipal truck buzzed us even though they were two wide and Obviously taking the whole lane, and cars were coming the other way. As you have seen, when a driver wants to be exceedingly, aggressively ignorant and exceedingly, ignorantly aggressive, all you can do is brake, turn and hope it is your lucky day.
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Old 01-16-19, 03:26 AM
  #143  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
Interesting. I was just trying to explain this to @Chris0516 in another thread (Taking The Lane, post #34 .) Some driver will risk their own lives and everyone else's to gain twenty feet of pavement.

Last fall I was riding with a couple friend---i was behind, they were two abreast. A guy in a municipal truck buzzed us even though they were two wide and Obviously taking the whole lane, and cars were coming the other way. As you have seen, when a driver wants to be exceedingly, aggressively ignorant and exceedingly, ignorantly aggressive, all you can do is brake, turn and hope it is your lucky day.
For starters, riding two abreast in the lane. Is illegal.

As for the truck driver that 'buzzed' you. When they passed, were they completely in the on-coming lane, when they buzzed you?
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Old 01-16-19, 03:46 AM
  #144  
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Dude, i refuse to argue.

First off, the general road rules used by most states (including the state where this happened) "Persons riding bicycles upon a roadway may not ride more than two abreast except on paths or parts of roadways set aside for the exclusive use of bicycles. ... It is legal to leave the right side of the roadway and in doing so, impede other traffic under certain circumstances when passing." (Emphasis added.) Note please that "not More than two abreast" makes two abreast legal. So you need to rethink that argument in light of the facts.

Second ... Taking the lane is a useful tool, and I have been using it for decades, but it is not magic. You can get hit anywhere on any road.

You think whatever you want. I just pointed out that Facts gained through Experience have shown me that no matter where in the lane I ride, a driver of sufficient stupidity can still put me in danger.

You want to live in a world where the written law isn't true and no one can hit you if you take the lane? Cool. It is nothing to me. Go ahead, and may you be safe and happy, or have whatever outcome is supposed to come your way. I don't want to change your mind or change your fate.

However ... you got your facts wrong about riding two abreast, and i have seen in my own life that taking the lane doesn't stop drivers from passing or trying to pass.

I mean you no ill will, but I have been riding on the street for a long time and I have seen a lot. When I started, bike lanes didn't even exist as a concept---every road ride was done in traffic. So ... I will go with five decades of experience over the opinion of someone who didn't do his research.
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Old 01-16-19, 11:28 AM
  #145  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
Dude, i refuse to argue.

First off, the general road rules used by most states (including the state where this happened) "Persons riding bicycles upon a roadway may not ride more than two abreast except on paths or parts of roadways set aside for the exclusive use of bicycles. ... It is legal to leave the right side of the roadway and in doing so, impede other traffic under certain circumstances when passing." (Emphasis added.) Note please that "not More than two abreast" makes two abreast legal. So you need to rethink that argument in light of the facts.

Second ... Taking the lane is a useful tool, and I have been using it for decades, but it is not magic. You can get hit anywhere on any road.

You think whatever you want. I just pointed out that Facts gained through Experience have shown me that no matter where in the lane I ride, a driver of sufficient stupidity can still put me in danger.

You want to live in a world where the written law isn't true and no one can hit you if you take the lane? Cool. It is nothing to me. Go ahead, and may you be safe and happy, or have whatever outcome is supposed to come your way. I don't want to change your mind or change your fate.

However ... you got your facts wrong about riding two abreast, and i have seen in my own life that taking the lane doesn't stop drivers from passing or trying to pass.

I mean you no ill will, but I have been riding on the street for a long time and I have seen a lot. When I started, bike lanes didn't even exist as a concept---every road ride was done in traffic. So ... I will go with five decades of experience over the opinion of someone who didn't do his research.
Correct, and would not riding two abreast INSURE taking the lane??? and discourage impatient drivers from trying to squeeze by? thereby being even safer? I'm with you. I've cycled a lot and today when I need to turn left in a lot of cases and road conditions I'll stop, pull over to the right, look both ways and proceed across the road. Better safe than sorry.....
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