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All is not well on Dutch bike paths

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All is not well on Dutch bike paths

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Old 02-06-19, 12:01 PM
  #1  
Joe Bikerider
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All is not well on Dutch bike paths

I ran into this article about the problems on Dutch cycle paths caused by crowding and an increasingly complex mix of vehicles including electrics and cycle cars. See:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ycle-lane-hell

In related news the Stint electric has been banned and the company has filed bankrupcy.

https://newmobility.news/2018/10/29/...or-bankruptcy/

regards, joe

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Old 02-06-19, 12:39 PM
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It was only a matter of time. 'Electric bike cars' with a top speed of 34 mph on the bike lanes along side folks going 12 mph? No wonder cyclist fatalities outnumber vehicle passenger fatalities for the first time.
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Old 02-06-19, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Joe Bikerider View Post
In related news the Stint electric has been banned and the company has filed bankrupcy.

https://newmobility.news/2018/10/29/...or-bankruptcy/
Not surprised those things are banned from roads.

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Old 02-06-19, 03:48 PM
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“Cycle lane hell.”

A headline that can only be written by someone who doesn’t ride a bike, let alone in European Netherlands.

”Traffic lane hell” on the other hand is a widespread problem. But that doesn’t make The Guardian, let alone A&S, cut.

(Exception. The continuing series of NOLA is hell “topics.”)

-mr. bill
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Old 02-06-19, 06:52 PM
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NOLA isn't hell ... it's a War Zone.

But, yup ... if a nation wants to have bicycle infrastructure for serious transport bicyclists, it needs to have "bicycle only" bike roads. An MUP is just a sidewalk. And a four-foot-wide electric scooter travelling 30 mph isn't a bike, and doesn't belong there either. Not only is it too fast, it is too wide.

An e-bike would be fine---so long as it traveled at human-powered bicycle speeds. So now we are taking roads for cars, and bus lanes, sidewalks, and bike paths ... and where do cycle-cars go? How many cities have that much real estate to devote to transport?

And how much do people want to pay for enforcement?
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Old 02-06-19, 07:09 PM
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I wouldn't want my child riding in one of those plastic death traps...... with a teenager driving it! No Way.
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Old 02-06-19, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
NOLA isn't hell ... it's a War Zone.

But, yup ... if a nation wants to have bicycle infrastructure for serious transport bicyclists, it needs to have "bicycle only" bike roads. An MUP is just a sidewalk. And a four-foot-wide electric scooter travelling 30 mph isn't a bike, and doesn't belong there either. Not only is it too fast, it is too wide.

An e-bike would be fine---so long as it traveled at human-powered bicycle speeds. So now we are taking roads for cars, and bus lanes, sidewalks, and bike paths ... and where do cycle-cars go? How many cities have that much real estate to devote to transport?

And how much do people want to pay for enforcement?
I don't see anyone cycling/pedaling these, things... ???
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Old 02-07-19, 05:39 AM
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Their bike infrastructure has always been way too crowded for me, but I can see the issue of it becoming worse with electric bikes and all the other wheeled vehicles. I see a lot of electric bikes around here nowadays and the operators don't have a clue how to be a part of traffic, what's worse is now they got so much more speed behind their awful bike handling skills.

I'll keep to the roads...

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Old 02-07-19, 06:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
NOLA isn't hell ... it's a War Zone.

But, yup ... if a nation wants to have bicycle infrastructure for serious transport bicyclists, it needs to have "bicycle only" bike roads. An MUP is just a sidewalk. And a four-foot-wide electric scooter travelling 30 mph isn't a bike, and doesn't belong there either. Not only is it too fast, it is too wide.

An e-bike would be fine---so long as it traveled at human-powered bicycle speeds. So now we are taking roads for cars, and bus lanes, sidewalks, and bike paths ... and where do cycle-cars go? How many cities have that much real estate to devote to transport?

And how much do people want to pay for enforcement?
They don't want enforcement, just a few little corrections. This is just a police officer in panic because he doesn't have control over something that controls itself. He's living in the past, the idea that you should or can rule bicycle traffic like car traffic has been left by almost anyone who knows what he's talking about. Most clear example is probably 'All directions green', on a busy crossing with cars and bikes all the bikes get green at the same time while the cars weight and watch them work it out, which they do without any problems. No rules of priority there, just eye contact and improvisation.

City bicycle traffic is anarchy, it's made this way by anarchy over many decades. Even the Nazi's couldn't control it. It's not anarchy in the (wrong) sense that there are no norms. It's anarchy in the sense that the rules come from the bottom up, the people themselves without any authority. Dutch cycling traffic is ruled by unwritten rules much more than by written rules. The cyclists conquered their space from the cars themselves, law enforcement wasn't helpful then and it isn't needed now. Government just needs to facilitate, adjust infrastructure to the facts on the ground and do minor corrections. Law enforcement is for cars and mopeds, those are the ones that need to be ruled.

A few issues have occured lately:
- The 'slow' mopeds without mandatory helmets which were allowed in the cycling lane are particularly popular with boys in the risk taking age and a lot of them are tuned for much more speed. Cities have only just begun cracking down on that.
- The recent rise in cycling deaths is due to old people on E-bikes not realizing their reflexes have worsened too and don't have E-assist. Mostly one sided accidents with only a few years of life lost. Awareness is growing fast.
- Whatsapp has become a problem in the sense that it keeps people glued to the screen for much too long. Talking on the phone or just the odd text was never a problem, I've been using my phone on the bike since 1994, when it still drew attention. That's going tot be outlawed in a couple of months.
- Two weeks ago a judge has declared the Biro, a moped car, not a disabled vehicle that therefore can't be parked on the sidewalk or ride on the cycling lane anymore. It's mainly an Amsterdam issue, as owning a car in Amsterdam is not very practical and very expensive, people who can't cycle for physical reasons often rely on them. The Biro was also faster than the older ones and doesn't look pathetic so it drew another crowd.
- Amsterdam is probably the least cycling friendly city in the Netherlands. I like cycling there for the surroundings and for it's video game like rush but it's not particularly relaxed. It's got lots of cars, lots of assertive cabs, trams, buses, pedestrians, tourists who don't know what a cycling lane is, complicated shaped streets and crossings, tramlines and cargo bikes. There's a new left wing council that is going to decrease the number of cars.
- The tourists on bikes are also typically Amsterdam. They often can't properly handle a bike, they often don't know the written rules and have no idea about the existence of unwritten ones. Outlaw renting bikes to tourists and it would be much safer immediately. Predictability is what makes it work and people who don't know what they are doing are unpredictable. The new council is cracking down on cheap mass tourism too so that will get a bit better soon.

So yes it's busy and it will only get busier, but when a few corrections take effect it will get better again. All is not well, but no fundamental problems. Maybe the road cyclists who don't know how to behave themselves among traffic, they need some proper law enforcement.

Originally Posted by tyrion View Post
Not surprised those things are banned from roads.


I don't agree. They were very practical for transport of children from daycare to kindergarten and thins like that, usually 1 of 2 km distances over a cycle lane, much less fuss and the danger of vans and cars driving to and frome those locations with children waiting. Safer than walking too probably because no kid can stray onto the street. But a few things came together that caused it to be outlawed.
- Government standing back from rules and checks because of a right wing ideology and general incompetence to actually govern what needs to be governed.
- A very poor design on active safety. Not intuitive and not well thought through, like it was done by one autistic elektro engineer who doesn't drive or ride a bike.
- The accident with the train drew a very emotional response. Young children dead, two from the same family with their sister severly injured, the poor woman driving it has lost her legs. It was the biggest national tragedy since MH17 was shot over the Ukraine when it comes to how it was felt. The minister panicked and wanted to make up for lack of regulation and checks from the past.

I hope they will return with a proper design soon.

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Old 02-07-19, 07:58 AM
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I remember when I finished my 2000 bike tour with a 2 wk jaunt thru part of Holland. Not knowing better, I started out riding on the roads but was quickly put in my place by the honking drivers who wanted me on the bike paths. (I hadn't realized every road had an accompanying bike path.) Looks like riding on the road is now safer and less stressful in the beautiful country.
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Old 02-07-19, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by trailangel View Post
I wouldn't want my child riding in one of those plastic death traps...... with a teenager driving it! No Way.
Those aren't teenagers. They look to be mid-20's to me. Irresponsibility and/or poor judgement are not confined to the teen years btw. That is mainly an American phenomena this total fear of anyone under 21, the worship of anyone between 21 and 35, mistrust of anyone over 35 and the absolute worthlessness of anyone over 45.
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Old 02-07-19, 11:31 AM
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^^^ lol
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Old 02-12-19, 04:22 PM
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It just need to add a few orange safety flags...and put a Cygolite Hotshot 200, one of every side.
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Old 02-20-19, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by mcours2006 View Post
It was only a matter of time. 'Electric bike cars' with a top speed of 34 mph on the bike lanes along side folks going 12 mph? No wonder cyclist fatalities outnumber vehicle passenger fatalities for the first time.
Easy to fix.

Limit assist speeds to 20 MPH (30 KPH?), and require manual input from pedaling a bicycle to kicking a scooter.

Progressive power from the user, so to go from 19 to 20 MPH, the user must put in over 90% of the power?

I suppose one could do that easily enough by limiting non-cargo bikes to say 100 watts. So, the motor can provide most of the propulsion at 10 MPH, but just isn't capable of maintaining 20 MPH under ordinary conditions.
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Old 02-23-19, 03:23 PM
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ITT - people with no experience of actually living with an e-bike.
You are not going to get very far making the bike work hard.

In other news, robots are becoming an increasing problem for me. There are lots of hazards on the cycleway, particularly young children and dogs, but the delivery robots are random as hell. They dont keep to their side of the path, they don't manoeuvre smoothly, they're not predictable. And they're everywhere.
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Old 02-23-19, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Stadjer View Post
Not intuitive and not well thought through, like it was done by one autistic elektro engineer who doesn't drive or ride a bike.
Maybe throw black, female, gay and Down's syndrome in there too...?
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Old 02-23-19, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by tyrion View Post
Not surprised those things are banned from roads.
I'd give a lot of slack to a couple with 14 kids - so young too!
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Old 02-23-19, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by MikeyMK View Post
In other news, robots are becoming an increasing problem for me. There are lots of hazards on the cycleway, particularly young children and dogs, but the delivery robots are random as hell. They dont keep to their side of the path, they don't manoeuvre smoothly, they're not predictable. And they're everywhere.
Got any action pictures of this robotic menace?
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Old 02-23-19, 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
Got any action pictures of this robotic menace?
I don't go taking photos of them, weirdly. But here's a few photos from Google - obviously these are supposed to make them look good but trust me, they all collide together, they break down, they get stuck, and there can be ten of them in sight on the path in front of me. So roll your eyes no more..

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/z0rZBjJ5eKo/maxresdefault.jpg

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/DeXlTnv5MLA/maxresdefault.jpg

https://stores.org/wp-content/upload...80-702x336.jpg

https://fsmedia.imgix.net/e9/3e/12/0...51616ojpg.jpeg

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2018/11...3160405689.jpg

https://www.mk10local.co.uk/wp-conte...mk10-local.png

This one shows a stretch of path i regularly cycle on, you can see three on this hill and that's on a good day. I regularly have to use the grass, especially when they're playing chicken with me at the yellow posts...

https://c8.alamy.com/comp/RHPRM1/ped...nes-RHPRM1.jpg

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2018/11...3160373483.jpg

Last edited by MikeyMK; 02-24-19 at 01:33 AM. Reason: Tried to add img tags, nothing on here working properly for me lately.
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Old 02-24-19, 07:35 AM
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That light stick is pathetic. Needs christmas tree.





https://www.ft.com/video/60ab7727-f9...7-13cfd770e5b7

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Old 02-24-19, 08:06 AM
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You can either request desktop site or click “source”.

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Originally Posted by MikeyMK View Post
I don't go taking photos of them, weirdly. But here's a few photos from Google - obviously these are supposed to make them look good but trust me, they all collide together, they break down, they get stuck, and there can be ten of them in sight on the path in front of me. So roll your eyes no more..













This one shows a stretch of path i regularly cycle on, you can see three on this hill and that's on a good day. I regularly have to use the grass, especially when they're playing chicken with me at the yellow posts...



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Old 02-24-19, 08:06 AM
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“If you make rules, you also have to think about their enforcement,” Van de Kamp said.
Love this statement. So true, but commonly ignored.
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Old 02-24-19, 12:17 PM
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The quoted photos are showing, but mine still aren't, both Android One and Windows 10, never had issues before.

Anyway, just been to the shop, traffic quite light today but still four bots in this pic - complete with their amber beacons (all working!)

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Old 02-24-19, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Leisesturm View Post
Those aren't teenagers. They look to be mid-20's to me. Irresponsibility and/or poor judgement are not confined to the teen years btw. That is mainly an American phenomena this total fear of anyone under 21, the worship of anyone between 21 and 35, mistrust of anyone over 35 and the absolute worthlessness of anyone over 45.
At last! Something we brits and yanks have in common...
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Old 02-24-19, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by MikeyMK View Post
Maybe throw black, female, gay and Down's syndrome in there too...?
My choice of words might have been a bit insensitive and I want to apologize for that, but I would never place blacks, gays and females in the same category as someone with a diagnosed handicap. I'm actually in support of autists doing regular jobs in regular companies, but you can't have a single minded elektro engineer be responsible for the whole safety design. Therefore you need someone with a broader view. This seems like a clear case of 'if you only have a hammer, every problem starts to look like a nail'. Safety is not a elektrotechnical engineering issue, you've got to think about the person driving the thing.

Originally Posted by MikeyMK View Post
I don't go taking photos of them, weirdly. But here's a few photos from Google - obviously these are supposed to make them look good but trust me, they all collide together, they break down, they get stuck, and there can be ten of them in sight on the path in front of me. So roll your eyes no more..
They seem easy to tip over. Those tech people just need some external incentives sometimes to do a better job. These corporations have a habit of letting society deal with most of the burdens for free if people let them.

Originally Posted by Hoopdriver View Post
Love this statement. So true, but commonly ignored.
Yes, but you can also think about getting rid of rules and about rules that don't need enforcement.
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