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Death rate VS vegetable rate

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Death rate VS vegetable rate

Old 02-19-19, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by base2
So my actual question is: "Why do people, usually the anti-helmet crowd, but not always, tend to conflate brain injury statistics with death statistics?"
I don't know that it's "usually" one crowd or the other, but the main reason is that we have very good data about fatalities (in part due to FARS database), but spotty reporting and inconsistent data regarding brain injury statistics. In short, most people talk about fatalities because it's easier.
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Old 02-19-19, 12:35 PM
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Docs who specialize in the brain will tell you, we are all brain-damaged, to some extent. Look no further than this thread ...

Seriously though, I agree. It would be like trying to determine the number of riders who soiled themselves during a crash, such statistics are not even kept, as far as I know. So it would be a fool's errand to even try to document the numbers and come up with a definitive answer without any data, one would think.
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Old 02-19-19, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by ridelikeaturtle
As a cyclist, do you have a choice about what sort of car vs bike accident you're going to be involved in, or when? No, you do not.

If you're wearing a helmet, and you hit your head, it will reduce the g-forces imparted to your head.

It is a very low cost to you, both from a financial perspective, and a "convenience" perspective.

In exchange (for that low cost), it could avoid a very high cost to society, in a trip to the hospital, hospital expenses, ongoing treatment expenses, increases in insurance premiums, a cost to coworkers and employers for lost work, and emotional costs to friends and family.

But "personal freedom!". That argument wears thin. Your choices impact others. It doesn't fly for smoking (in the workplace, or any enclosed space, where others are subjected to secondhand smoke), not wearing seatbelts, and increasingly, not wearing a bike helmet.
Smoking, drinking, and eating incur greater costs for healthcare 1,200+ fold over the healthcare costs and of bicycling. Probably 5000 fold. So when will we regulate the real issues? Or how about we endorse personal responsibility. How about we allow insurance to not cover your bill if you don't wear a helmet. Your family, and friends? Coworkers? Sorry people accidentally get hurt and die all the time.

(Numbers are based on US numbers. 480,000 deaths due to smoking, 300,000 deaths due to obesity, 88,000 deaths due to drinking. Only 722 due to bicycling and maybe 5% of those were preventable who knows.) Maybe we should address the real issues?

Maybe we should allow personal choices to have personal consequences. That's the real issue. You can't argue that personal choice should be regulated because we have policies in place that make the consequences further reaching then they should. And if we do, then we should address the big bar items. Not go for small bar items that no one will follow and only generate what amounts to a tax.

Government regulation, is ineffective, and most of the time hypocritical BS.

Last edited by 86az135i; 02-19-19 at 12:40 PM.
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Old 02-19-19, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by 86az135i
Smoking, drinking, and eating incur greater costs for healthcare 1,200+ fold over the healthcare costs and of bicycling. Probably 5000 fold. So when will we regulate the real issues? Or how about we endorse personal responsibility. How about we allow insurance to not cover your bill if you don't wear a helmet. Your family, and friends? Coworkers? Sorry people accidentally get hurt and die all the time.

(Numbers are based on US numbers. 480,000 deaths due to smoking, 300,000 deaths due to obesity, 88,000 deaths due to drinking. Only 722 due to bicycling and maybe 5% of those were preventable who knows.) Maybe we should address the real issues?

Maybe we should allow personal choices to have personal consequences. That's the real issue. You can't argue that personal choice should be regulated because we have policies in place that make the consequences further reaching then they should. And if we do, then we should address the big bar items. Not go for small bar items that no one will follow and only generate what amounts to a tax.

Government regulation, is ineffective, and most of the time hypocritical BS.
You forgot guns and climate change. C'mon!

You can't argue that personal choice should be regulated because we have policies in place that make the consequences further reaching then they should.
You do realize what your "policies in place" are here, right? It's called "living as part of a civilized society". Public services - hospitals, schools, fire & police depts. Running water, electricity. Roads. And yes, "government regulations". Yet your contempt for all that is clear. Libertarian-utopian BS.
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Old 02-19-19, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by ridelikeaturtle
You forgot guns and climate change. C'mon!



You do realize what your "policies in place" are here, right? It's called "living as part of a civilized society". Public services - hospitals, schools, fire & police depts. Running water, electricity. Roads. And yes, "government regulations". Yet your contempt for all that is clear. Libertarian-utopian BS.
Gun homicide in US ~ 10k/year. Doesn't even make a dent to people's own lifestyle choices. But looks like you just chose to skim over the topics I presented. But hey, it's fine if we kill ourselves in self indulgence. But be damned if you didn't wear a helmet.

Libertarian =/= anarchist. Just because we have some half-successful tax-payer funded programs doesn't mean the government is always the solution. Also I wouldn't lump hospitals, water, or electricity in those. While they may receive some subsidies here and there, they are in large private entities in the US.

Also you should note, somebody not wearing a helmet should have a greater chance of not hurting the tax payer funded road when their soft head hits it.

But please if you have some actual real evidence, some actual statistics about the trillions of dollars saved from the maybe 50-100 people saved annually (US) by wearing helmets...let me know. There is no substantial argument to mandate helmets. I've yet to see it.
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Old 02-19-19, 02:24 PM
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Sweet helmet thread, with gun discussions.
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Old 02-19-19, 02:29 PM
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"You must respond to all my nonsense! You must show me the statistics I ask for! If you don't, I'm validated!" Oh puhleese. Now we're getting into Russian propaganda territory.
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Old 02-19-19, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by ridelikeaturtle
"You must respond to all my nonsense! You must show me the statistics I ask for! If you don't, I'm validated!" Oh puhleese. Now we're getting into Russian propaganda territory.
Yes if you're going to try and mandate people to do what YOU think is best for them. Solving non-existent or non-substantial issues is not beneficial to society.

But let me give Trump a call. I'm going to let him know about the national emergency of people not wearing their helmets. Then we should be able to bypass congress and get the funding we need to solve this helmet debate once and for all.
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Old 02-19-19, 03:56 PM
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Well I'm glad I didn't post what I had prepared. Sometimes you need to take a breather before pressing that send button.
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Old 02-19-19, 04:03 PM
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Let's reset this conversation a bit because I'm confused. Are people saying, "Bicycle helmets should not be mandatory"?

or are people saying, "It's not even advisable that people should voluntarily choose to wear a helmet while cycling because there's no proof of their effectiveness"?
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Old 02-19-19, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by AlmostTrick
The only way it could be worse is if that rider was also Taking the Lane. OMG, guaranteed pages of thread!
But then, was he on a diamond frame or a recumbent? And was he being chased by dogs?
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Old 02-19-19, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by parkbrav
Let's reset this conversation a bit because I'm confused. Are people saying, "Bicycle helmets should not be mandatory"?

or are people saying, "It's not even advisable that people should voluntarily choose to wear a helmet while cycling because there's no proof of their effectiveness"?
I think both arguments are occurring simultaneously.
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Old 02-19-19, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by 86az135i
I think both arguments are occurring simultaneously.
Well as to the argument about not being advisable because they are in-efficacious, would the champions of this argument ever consider cycling without a helmet in the winter on the snow and ice? Or down a steep mountaintop in China on a dirt road and you didn't speak the local dialect?
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Old 02-19-19, 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Milton Keynes
But then, was he on a diamond frame or a recumbent? And was he being chased by dogs?
I'm not sure, but this thread has almost everything now. Must be a deep state conspiracy to get us all to wear helmets.
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Old 02-19-19, 05:26 PM
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Move entire thread to "Foo"?

Heck, let's just change the entire board to Foo status. Sadly, it seems that we are no longer a "serious" message board that discusses grown adults playing with kid's toys (i.e., bikes) with the degree of decorum that is warranted.
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Old 02-19-19, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by parkbrav
Well as to the argument about not being advisable because they are in-efficacious, would the champions of this argument ever consider cycling without a helmet in the winter on the snow and ice? Or down a steep mountaintop in China on a dirt road and you didn't speak the local dialect?
Given design and construction of bicycle helmets currently on the market and their limited risk reduction capability, if an individual feels/argues that certain cycling activities/scenarios, or cycling in general, is too hazardous to ride without a bicycle helmet, it is also too hazardous to ride with a helmet.

It may give such individuals "Courage for Your Head" as Bicycles Helmets were once callously promoted by a well known promoter of bicycle helmets.


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Old 02-19-19, 06:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Lemond1985
Move entire thread to "Foo"?

Heck, let's just change the entire board to Foo status. Sadly, it seems that we are no longer a "serious" message board that discusses grown adults playing with kid's toys (i.e., bikes) with the degree of decorum that is warranted.
It seems to me that the majority of threads on this board are "serious". But when someone posts a helmet thread outside of the designated helmet thread, what we have here is to be expected. And promoted!
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Old 02-19-19, 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
...if an individual feels/argues that certain cycling activities/scenarios, or cycling in general, is too hazardous to ride without a bicycle helmet, it is also too hazardous to ride with a helmet.
That's well put and I am enjoying this conversation immensely!

The question of the effect of helmet use on brain damage rates is, of course, very important, but unanswerable. My qualitative SWAG, as an expert, is that protection is incremental for rotational deceleration, concussion-type, injuries, and likely pretty good for skull fractures, which are caused by point loading of the head. However, skull fractures, while particularly deadly because of the associated risk of epidural hemorrhage, are much less common.

There's also a very broad spectrum of severity from mild concussion, with full recovery in a couple of weeks, to the catastrophic injuries that leave people in chronic care for the rest of their lives. Another point to consider is that the elderly are at far higher risk of lasting problems after mild-moderate head injury than the young and folks with pre-existing cognitive or behavioral issues also do worse in general and may be more likely to bash their noggins.

I wear a helmet all the time, but mainly as a talisman. Unlike, say, vaping, it's not nearly a big enough deal to criticize anyone for not wearing one.
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Old 02-19-19, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
Given design and construction of bicycle helmets currently on the market and their limited risk reduction capability, if an individual feels/argues that certain cycling activities/scenarios, or cycling in general, is too hazardous to ride without a bicycle helmet, it is also too hazardous to ride with a helmet.

It may give such individuals "Courage for Your Head" as Bicycles Helmets were once callously promoted by a well known promoter of bicycle helmets.


I respectfully disagree, if it's too dangerous not to wear a helmet, it may still be safe enough to cycle wearing a helmet.
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Old 02-19-19, 06:59 PM
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Originally Posted by MoAlpha
Unlike, say, vaping, it's not nearly a big enough deal to criticize anyone for not wearing one.
yeah ... i am with you.

I rail at people for not vaping all the time, and with maximum harshness.
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Old 02-19-19, 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Maelochs
yeah ... i am with you.

I rail at people for not vaping all the time, and with maximum harshness.
You just keep on doing you, baby!
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Old 02-19-19, 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by AlmostTrick
I'm not sure, but this thread has almost everything now. Must be a deep state conspiracy to get us all to wear helmets.
The heck with helmets, everybody should have a rearview mirror.
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Old 02-19-19, 10:33 PM
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There was one guy who was so mad when his baby bike bolts got "stollen", he forgot to wear his helmet. He was chased by dogs.
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Old 02-20-19, 05:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Jim from Boston
The heck with helmets, everybody should have a rearview mirror.
Or two!
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Old 02-20-19, 06:18 AM
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Originally Posted by AlmostTrick
I'm not sure, but this thread has almost everything now.

Must be a deep state conspiracy to get us all to wear helmets.
Originally Posted by Jim from Boston
The heck with helmets, everybody should have a rearview mirror.
Originally Posted by AlmostTrick
Or two!
Why, of course!
Originally Posted by Jim from Boston
I use both left and right rearview mirrors, in my case Take-a-Look eyeglass mounted ones. I got the idea from a cycling companion who used only a right hand mirror.

The additional right hand mirror affords a pretty good rearward view, but is particularly useful:

1. Riding on the left-hand side of a one-way street…
7. When wearing a backpack, usually one mirror has a less-obstructed view over my shoulder.

My main argument for a mirror, particularly in the urban environment is summarized by Jim’s Law of the Road: No matter how well paved or lightly-traveled the Road, a vehicle is likely to pass you on the left as you encounter an obstacle on the right...”.

Last edited by Jim from Boston; 02-20-19 at 06:23 AM.
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