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Motorists Killing Pedestrians at 3-Decade High

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Motorists Killing Pedestrians at 3-Decade High

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Old 03-15-19, 10:41 AM
  #76  
Leisesturm
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Originally Posted by CrankyOne View Post
Similarly, if our roads were designed to the same safety standards as most European countries we'd have less than 1/3 of those fatalities so rather than 28,000 it'd be about 8,000 so 20,000 lives saved.

If U.S. traffic engineers designed our roads as well as engineers in Europe then of the 38,000 people killed last year about 29,000 would still be alive today. Of the 378,000 people killed over the past 10 years, about 276,000 would still be alive today.

Or put another way, U.S. traffic engineers are responsible for the deaths of 29,000 people last year due to their negligent designs.
As I understand it, U.S. limited access highways and interstates are designed so that an 85th percentile driver feels comfortable and in control at 80mph. This has been the case for decades. I've driven cross country many times in my younger years but have not owned a car for decades. When I drove my wife and I to Oregon which is our home now, I had not driven any vehicle for over five years. I drove a loaded 16' Penske rental truck from NYC to Portland, OR in five days in about every kind of road and weather condition there is. Safely. European Civil Engineers are assisted by the high social intelligence of European drivers in making their roads so safe!!! Just this week at church a mother was expressing thanks that her son survived an accident that crushed his car so badly that he had to be 'extracted' from it! The other driver "fell asleep". It is really a stretch to blame America's road infrastructure for what is actually a massive failure in inculcating a culture of good judgement, skills improvement, and civility in the roadgoing public.
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Old 03-16-19, 07:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Leisesturm View Post
As I understand it, U.S. limited access highways and interstates are designed so that an 85th percentile driver feels comfortable and in control at 80mph. This has been the case for decades. I've driven cross country many times in my younger years but have not owned a car for decades. When I drove my wife and I to Oregon which is our home now, I had not driven any vehicle for over five years. I drove a loaded 16' Penske rental truck from NYC to Portland, OR in five days in about every kind of road and weather condition there is. Safely. European Civil Engineers are assisted by the high social intelligence of European drivers in making their roads so safe!!! Just this week at church a mother was expressing thanks that her son survived an accident that crushed his car so badly that he had to be 'extracted' from it! The other driver "fell asleep". It is really a stretch to blame America's road infrastructure for what is actually a massive failure in inculcating a culture of good judgement, skills improvement, and civility in the roadgoing public.
I think the point of posts #68 , #73 , (that's me) & the posts of Mr. Cranky are that the engineers enable & encourage the poor decisions & tragic higher consequence outcomes through wrong-headed design. They have the wrong human as their safety focus. So with every iteration the drivers connectedness to that human diminishes.
When I finished my post with "Freedom, or whatever..." What I meant was:
The drivers freedom to travel with out risk or consequence the only thing that matters in modern design philosophy.
No one seems to have any interest in changing that.
You are right, it is cultural at this point.
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Old 03-16-19, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by base2 View Post
I think the point of posts #68 , #73 , (that's me) & the posts of Mr. Cranky are that the engineers enable & encourage the poor decisions & tragic higher consequence outcomes through wrong-headed design. They have the wrong human as their safety focus. So with every iteration the drivers connectedness to that human diminishes.
When I finished my post with "Freedom, or whatever..." What I meant was:
The drivers freedom to travel with out risk or consequence the only thing that matters in modern design philosophy.
No one seems to have any interest in changing that.
You are right, it is cultural at this point.
So why are you still blaming the engineers? "Wrong-headed design"? "The wrong human as their safety focus"? What does that mean? Can you give some concrete examples of how U.S. road infrastructure might change safety metrics for the better?
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Old 03-16-19, 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Leisesturm View Post
So why are you still blaming the engineers? "Wrong-headed design"? "The wrong human as their safety focus"? What does that mean? Can you give some concrete examples of how U.S. road infrastructure might change safety metrics for the better?
With every iteration of "safety for car occupants" the goal posts get moved further reducing any connectedness to the task at hand; piloting a 2 ton chunk of metal safely. The feeing of "safety" reduces risk, so drivers risk/reward formula used by the drivet gets skewed in favor of higher speed & disregard for "silly" laws. Drivers in-turn become lax, sloppy, & distracted. When the unthinkable happens they are already so far into a vehicles performance envelope the results can be nothing other than catastrophic.

Come on man, you are smart. This is nothing new. Garbage cars with terrible brakes on tight windy roads near cliffs get driven slower than a Mercedez-Benz get hammering down on the Autobahn. Why? The consequence is a terrible plunge to your doom vs no consequence at all. Driver choices and actions are influenced by the road & car engineer.

If you need another opinion besides mine.
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Old 03-16-19, 05:37 PM
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You've got to know when and where to ride and know when there's some sketchy circumstances that you have to think for the driver... Nowadays, if you don't have the physical and mental agility do think and look over your shoulder at the same time, you shouldn't be on the road - you are nothing but an obstruction!
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Old 03-17-19, 11:35 AM
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To be fair, cars are no match for the Union Pacific.
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Old 03-17-19, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by base2 View Post
Garbage cars with terrible brakes on tight windy roads near cliffs get driven slower than a Mercedez-Benz get hammering down on the Autobahn. .
Opinions are fine ... got any facts?

Here is my experience: when I drove like an idiot, i did it in whatever car i drove. When I rode a motorcycle like an idiot, i did it on my motorcycle---in some cases with bald tires and very little brakes. People who are stupid are just as stupid in a new BMW and an old Ford Fiesta. The difference is, the new BMW Can go faster, and probably will, because it has superior brakes, adhesion, and acceleration. But both cars will likely be driven to their limits by the kind of drivers who drive stupidly.

Taken to an extreme ... why not have sharp metal spikes pointed at the driver from the top of the windshield, the steering column, the driver's side door frame, and the center console. Take out the air bags and seat belts. That way if the driver doesn't drive with extreme car, he/she will be impaled. This will increase road safety, you are saying? Why not have one of those insurance-company "snapshot" multi-plane accelerometers which sets off an explosive under there driver's seat if the driver exceeds certain limits?

Real-world experience has shown that people really don't expect to crash, so that the survivability of a crash is not that much of a consideration when deciding to drive foolishly.
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Old 03-17-19, 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
Opinions are fine ... got any facts?
They are everywhere. Why is it so controversial that peoples actions are influenced by external factors or percieved capabilities of themselves or their machine? You are a human person, correct? Have you never interacted with the world? Every aspect of every thing ever built is influenced by an engineer in some capacity. Are you not aware of how peoples decisions are influenced or the degree properties are agonized over by engineers? Everything from the rumble of the exhaust note to the "thunk" of the door closing to the amount of road noise allowed is purpose built and tailored for a particular effect. By definition that is influencing the occupants. That's the whole point of their work. The concept supports itself...unless you are being deliberatly obtuse & want me to provide a link to an industrial design, architectural design or marketing manuals or psychology in human desision making..in which case, I will point you towards the local community college. Classes are $500 tuition plus books. There you can gain great understanding of factors affecting human decision making. Heres a hint: It's rarely based on non-emotional factors & actions are easily manipulated.
Here is my experience: when I drove like an idiot, i did it in whatever car i drove. When I rode a motorcycle like an idiot, i did it on my motorcycle---in some cases with bald tires and very little brakes. People who are stupid are just as stupid in a new BMW and an old Ford Fiesta. The difference is, the new BMW Can go faster, and probably will, because it has superior brakes, adhesion, and acceleration. But both cars will likely be driven to their limits by the kind of drivers who drive stupidly.
The BMW is more likely to be a pedestrian/cyclist murder machine. Exactly my point. Thank you.
Taken to an extreme ... why not have sharp metal spikes pointed at the driver from the top of the windshield, the steering column, the driver's side door frame, and the center console. Take out the air bags and seat belts. That way if the driver doesn't drive with extreme car, he/she will be impaled. This will increase road safety, you are saying? Why not have one of those insurance-company "snapshot" multi-plane accelerometers which sets off an explosive under there driver's seat if the driver exceeds certain limits?
It would make it safer for pedestrians & cyclists. Exactly my point. Thank you.
Real-world experience has shown that people really don't expect to crash, so that the survivability of a crash is not that much of a consideration when deciding to drive foolishly.
That is exactly my point. For drivers, they are lulled into a false sense of safety due to being insulated from the activity at hand. They don't expect to crash. A feeling of insecurity & tactile sense of forces on the vehicle would influence them to operate the vehicle differently. Engineers have jurisdiction in that domain. Therefore, it makes sense to get their buy-in for all users safety.

Last edited by base2; 03-17-19 at 09:19 PM.
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