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MUP Etiquette

Old 05-20-19, 04:33 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by MikeyMK View Post
This.

As a cyclist amongst children, pets, etc.. YOU are the problem. Not them. Learn to be more sociable - slow down to a suitable speed for the conditions and situation, be prepared, be ready, and have a positive, decent, caring attitude.
No cyclist are not the problem. every user who is is rude, selfsh and clueless is the problem I go slow when others are around I always err on caution...... but many times the problem is the behavior other mup users. Dogs off leash, dog on leash with leash across the trail, People crossing the trail with out looking, kids not well in hand, people takeing both sides of the trail (3 will do it on the trail I ride most) idiots on e assist fat tire bikes who never slow down at over 20mph, would be racers on bikes, people who stop and block the trail with wagons, bikes photo equipment etc on blind corners.... list goes on
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Old 05-20-19, 04:47 PM
  #27  
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let's rev this up a bit: I want to see a 3 foot rule applied to CYCLISTS passing anyone, anywhere.
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Old 05-20-19, 04:58 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by MikeyMK View Post
This.


As a cyclist amongst children, pets, etc.. YOU are the problem. Not them. Learn to be more sociable - slow down to a suitable speed for the conditions and situation, be prepared, be ready, and have a positive, decent, caring attitude.

Sorry, no. Your kids and your pets are 100% your responsibility. Don't depend on the rest of society to do your job for you. Not that I'm condoning recklessness. Far from it. But everyone has the responsibility to adapt to the conditions and be respect to each other's space.

That means a cyclist slowing down when passing a group, and the group moving to one side to leave the opposite side clear for others to pass. There are no priority individual on the MUPs, and neither should take up more than their side.


As for safety, that is every individual's responsible equally. If you have kids and want them to be safe take them to the playground. Similarly, your pets should be at your side and on a leash and under your complete control at all times when in public areas.
Originally Posted by FrenchFit View Post
let's rev this up a bit: I want to see a 3 foot rule applied to CYCLISTS passing anyone, anywhere.




Some MUPs are that wide in either direction. On the other hand, pedestrians always have complete priority on the sidewalks.

Last edited by KraneXL; 05-20-19 at 05:14 PM.
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Old 05-20-19, 05:06 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by goldensprocket View Post
I'm glad you enjoyed it.

Normal folks ring bells on MUPs even when people are "about where they ought to be" to let them know that someone is passing. This can help prevent people from being startled by a bike coming by "out of nowhere."

This is basic stuff.
No spit, Spurlock, but that's not what the video seems to be about. The title and the bell sound effect, and your comment about people being oblivious would all indicate dissatisfaction with the people's reaction to the bell. And speeding it up gives a really fake impression that these are all absurdly close and dangerous passes.

And I'm a "passing on your left" guy. I think bells are stupid, but that's another thread.
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Old 05-20-19, 05:10 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by FrenchFit View Post
let's rev this up a bit: I want to see a 3 foot rule applied to CYCLISTS passing anyone, anywhere.
I'm going to practice 9 1/2 foot high jumps to get ready for this. I might get a ticket when I have to go over a seven foot tall guy.
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Old 05-20-19, 05:39 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
No spit, Spurlock, but that's not what the video seems to be about. The title and the bell sound effect, and your comment about people being oblivious would all indicate dissatisfaction with the people's reaction to the bell.

Calm down son. You're projecting a whole bunch here. First, there is no "bell sound effect" - there's nothing artificial about it. It's just the really loud, and long, tone that my Spurcycle Bell makes. Second, my comment was about some people being oblivious. That's the nature of the beast and if you paid attention to the video you would see that the vast majority of folks heard the bell and acted appropriately. Maybe it's time to watch it again before any more clueless comments?


Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
And speeding it up gives a really fake impression that these are all absurdly close and dangerous passes.

Thankfully, that's only your uninformed opinion. It's also some pretty amazing virtual hand wringing.


The video was sped up to highlight the vast sea of humanity that came out that day and who, for the most part, heeded the organizer's warnings:


"* Keep to the right when approached by others.


* Do not block entire trail width, always form a Single/double file.


* Look behind and to both sides before changing course"


Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
And I'm a "passing on your left" guy. I think bells are stupid, but that's another thread.

Yeah, I usually just rely on my really loud hubs to warn folks if I'm on a MUP. This day offered an opportunity to compare results. The bell is more effective when it's really crowded.


I mostly gave up on "passing on your left" decades ago since too many folks only hear "..... ... .... left" and move into your path as you try to pass. Again, this is basic stuff.
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Old 05-20-19, 06:12 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by goldensprocket View Post
Maybe it's time to watch it again before any more clueless comments?
I have to say, on re-watching, the negative impression created by the speedup alone only grows stronger.

A video like that does not help cycling advocacy at all - rather contrary to your presumed intent, it harms it. Especially at that artificial speedup, you're going to have a hard time convincing anyone that does not themselves ride that there is any inappropriate behavior (on the part of anyone but the cyclist) is depicted. Or even convincing many other cyclists.

In reality, I suspect there would be plenty of people doing problematic things during such a ride - but you can't see that, because the sped-up interactions are too brief.

If you want to make a video that demonstrates a problem, you'll probably have to edit together the actual interactions and let them play in real time.

It's rather debatable though, if people walking the full trail width but moving over at the sound of the bell is improper - the big problem is people who ignore a bell or passing announcement and stay blocking the full width.

It was an example of how even during an organized walk, with participants being warned in advance about etiquette, some folks are oblivious to a loud bell ringing behind them.

That at least we can agree on - the problem I'm not really seeing any spot in the video that is a clear example of this, for example where you're actually forced to come to a stop while people slowly realize they need to share the path; from personal experience I would strongly suspect that to happen on a ride of this length with that many walking the trail, but I can't actually see such things in the accelerated video.

Most of the spots that seem really contentious do so just from the volume of traffic - like being delayed passing slower cyclists who are themselves trying to get past pedestrians with other pedestrian groups in the oncoming lane.

Last edited by UniChris; 05-20-19 at 06:28 PM.
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Old 05-20-19, 06:30 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by goldensprocket View Post
Calm down son. You're projecting a whole bunch here. First, there is no "bell sound effect" - there's nothing artificial about it. It's just the really loud, and long, tone that my Spurcycle Bell makes. Second, my comment was about some people being oblivious. That's the nature of the beast and if you paid attention to the video you would see that the vast majority of folks heard the bell and acted appropriately. Maybe it's time to watch it again before any more clueless comments?





Thankfully, that's only your uninformed opinion. It's also some pretty amazing virtual hand wringing.


The video was sped up to highlight the vast sea of humanity that came out that day and who, for the most part, heeded the organizer's warnings:


"* Keep to the right when approached by others.


* Do not block entire trail width, always form a Single/double file.


* Look behind and to both sides before changing course"





Yeah, I usually just rely on my really loud hubs to warn folks if I'm on a MUP. This day offered an opportunity to compare results. The bell is more effective when it's really crowded.


I mostly gave up on "passing on your left" decades ago since too many folks only hear "..... ... .... left" and move into your path as you try to pass. Again, this is basic stuff.
Sorry Fellini, but I wouldn't watch it again on a bet. You're not conveying anything but that bike paths look dangerous at 80 mph.

and I have done thousands of passing on your lefts and the guy went the wrong way maybe twice ever. Maybe you're telling it wrong. Proper enunciation is basic stuff, mumbles.
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Old 05-20-19, 06:32 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by UniChris View Post
In reality, I suspect there would be plenty of people doing problematic things during such a ride - but you can't see that, because the sped-up interactions are too brief.
In reality, I was there. And you were not. Again, the vast majority of folks behaved perfectly fine. I was actually surprised at how well-mannered most folks were.

Originally Posted by UniChris
If you want to make a video that demonstrates a problem, you'll probably have to edit together the actual interactions and let them play in real time.
I had, and have, no intention of making a video that demonstrates a problem. Since, again, the vast majority of folks behaved nicely. I just let reality play out, without an agenda. Also, a real time video would be even longer and more boring than the one that was sped up.

Originally Posted by UniChris View Post
I'm not really seeing any spot in the video where you're actually forced to come to a stop while people slowly realize they need to share the path; from personal experience I would strongly suspect that to happen on a ride of this length with that many walking the trail, but I can't actually see such things in the accelerated video.
Watch again.

Again, in reality I was there, and you were not, and despite your "strong suspicions" that I would have been forced to stop, it didn't happen. I can trackstand/balance at low speeds though so maybe some differently-abled folks would have been forced to stop while people slowly realize they need to share the path - lone example is the couple at starting at 0:10 (which you should really like since that interaction is in real time).
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Old 05-20-19, 06:35 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by goldensprocket View Post
I had, and have, no intention of making a video that demonstrates a problem. Since, again, the vast majority of folks behaved nicely. I just let reality play out, without an agenda. Also, a real time video would be even longer and more boring than the one that was sped up.
​​
Ah, so you have no point - that explains everything!

Alas, in today's world you have to consider that while you may have had no point in making the video, your viewers will still see one, and probably not one you intend.

While I believe the video is counterproductive, I'm glad the apparently minor actual frustrations of the ride do not seem to have prevented it from being enjoyable.

Last edited by UniChris; 05-20-19 at 06:51 PM.
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Old 05-20-19, 06:59 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by UniChris View Post
​​
Ah, so you have no point - that explains everything!
No agenda ≠ no point.
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Old 05-20-19, 07:04 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by goldensprocket View Post
I'm glad you enjoyed it.

Normal folks ring bells on MUPs even when people are "about where they ought to be" to let them know that someone is passing. This can help prevent people from being startled by a bike coming by "out of nowhere."

This is basic stuff.
Most people, myself included, that ride our MUPS don't have a bell. I have never found a need for one. When I come up behind someone, I back off the throttle, make verbal contact and pass with minimal speed disparity. I usually say something polite to the people I pass. It has worked flawlessly for me.
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Old 05-20-19, 07:09 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by Paul Barnard View Post
Most people, myself included, that ride our MUPS don't have a bell. I have never found a need for one. When I come up behind someone, I back off the throttle, make verbal contact and pass with minimal speed disparity. I usually say something polite to the people I pass. It has worked flawlessly for me.
Context is key.

Here is the inanity that I was addressing with my response:

"A lot (most?) of the bell rings seem to be at people who are about where they ought to be."
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Old 05-20-19, 07:11 PM
  #39  
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So much anger...from now on I am staying away from the local MUPs.
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Old 05-20-19, 08:05 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by 88Tempo View Post
I wonder about all the traffic if I see 6-8 cars in 20 miles, I can't even imagine riding that MUP that Goldensprocket posted.
That was my thought. I certainly wouldn't do it for pleasure.
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Old 05-21-19, 12:58 AM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by jon c. View Post
That was my thought. I certainly wouldn't do it for pleasure.
It really isn't that crowded, the speeding up made it look like he was encountering a lot of people in rapid succession when in reality, it was probably minutes between each pass. It's one of several reasons I thought the whole thing was a dumb idea.
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Old 05-21-19, 01:03 AM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by goldensprocket View Post
Context is key.

Here is the inanity that I was addressing with my response:

"A lot (most?) of the bell rings seem to be at people who are about where they ought to be."
And he left out the context that the video was posted along with a comment about oblivious people on MUPs. Not an inane comment at all in that context.
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Old 05-21-19, 07:27 AM
  #43  
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Treat other on MUPs as you would like to have motorists treat you on roadways - safely, patiently and courteously.

And remember, a lot of those pedestrians have their cars parked nearby.
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Old 05-21-19, 08:14 AM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by Paul Barnard View Post
Most people, myself included, that ride our MUPS don't have a bell. I have never found a need for one. When I come up behind someone, I back off the throttle, make verbal contact and pass with minimal speed disparity. I usually say something polite to the people I pass. It has worked flawlessly for me.
A bell is universally recognizable as a cyclist approaching. Not only that its highly directional so its easy to tell what direction he's approaching from. Not only that, but may be required by law as operable equipment in some states.
Originally Posted by Daniel4 View Post
Treat other on MUPs as you would like to have motorists treat you on roadways - safely, patiently and courteously.

And remember, a lot of those pedestrians have their cars parked nearby.
Not at all an appropriate similarity. And the assumption that the cyclist is somehow more responsible on a MUP is frankly offensive. When it comes to safety, they are both EQUALLY responsible.

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Old 05-21-19, 08:36 AM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by Daniel4 View Post
Treat other on MUPs as you would like to have motorists treat you on roadways - safely, patiently and courteously.
This is indeed a very good model - especially with regard to things like passing, particularly slowing and waiting until it is safe to do so. Accidentally ended up on a stretch of narrow guardrail-bounded road this weekend that could have been very unpleasant, fortunately drivers were extremely courteous.

At the same time it would be good for pedestrians to keep in mind that MUPs are in effect country roads and not exclusively pedestrian sidewalks, meaning a degree of traffic awareness has to remain "on"

Locally, we have some problems with illicit urban sidewalk riding, often high speed electric; but we also have some problems with pedestrians who write letters to the editor showing a lack of understanding of the difference between that, and the legitimate cycling on our MUPs. We also get those out for a stroll who habitually take the bike route rather than the walking one in the spots where they split, and park cyclists who think the walking lane is the salmoning alternative to one-way bike loop...

And remember, a lot of those pedestrians have their cars parked nearby.
A year or two ago I was surprised when a car stopped while I was still climbing the hill towards a trail's road crossing that I would not have reached until well after they would have naturally passed. After waving thanks I saw them pull into the trail parking lot, which was when I noticed the bikes on the back.

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Old 05-21-19, 10:31 AM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by KraneXL View Post
A bell is universally recognizable as a cyclist approaching. Not only that its highly directional so its easy to tell what direction he's approaching from. Not only that, but may be required by law as operable equipment in some states.

Not at all an appropriate similarity. And the assumption that the cyclist is somehow more responsible on a MUP is frankly offensive. When it comes to safety, they are both EQUALLY responsible.
I can't speak for others, but I find it much more difficult to locate a bell behind me than I do a voice. Again, that's a debate for another thread (or a few, if I recall).

You're just flat wrong about the cyclist's responsibility on a MUP at least as far as the law is concerned in the jurisdictions I ride in. We're legally required to yield to pedestrians on MUPs. So far as I know, there are no exceptions. You may find that offensive, but it is an actual legal assignment (not an "assumption") of greater responsibility on the cyclist for safety on the path. "He was staring at his phone while walking" is not going to be a defense if you didn't avoid hitting him.
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Old 05-21-19, 11:13 AM
  #47  
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The "treat peds on an MUP the way you would want them treating you as they drive home past you on your bike" is an excellent comparison ... except for people more tied up in conflict than conversation. In both cases the faster-moving vehicle with the potential to inflict greater damage is required to yield ... except on the MUP--cyclists have More responsibility. On the road, cars and bikes have equal rights of way as both are vehicles. On an MUP or a road , Pedestrians Have the Right of Way and must be deferred to.

So yes ... cyclists do bear the greater responsibility on an MUP, even more than drivers interacting with cyclists on the roadway. But in both cases, the larger, faster, more potentially damaging vehicle Should take great care around smaller, slower, more fragile users of the way. This is the same thought behind the "Watch for Motorcyclists" campaigns ... the rights and responsibilities are the same, but auto and truck drivers Should take extra car around their more fragile brethren.

One thing all this proves is that an MUP is Not "cycling infrastructure" and cities which want to be truly "cycling-friendly" need to build bike-only paths. I cannot imagine trying to ride to work through a mess like that ....
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Old 05-21-19, 11:31 AM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
One thing all this proves is that an MUP is Not "cycling infrastructure" and cities which want to be truly "cycling-friendly" need to build bike-only paths.
Indeed - but this is typically only viable when there's a pedestrian route like a sidewalk right beside; unfortunately even then it's a hard sell. We had one that got re-built far too picturesque; it's a nice winding path through a garden and was too tempting for a while compared to the sidewalk a few yards over, fortunately better signage has improved things but there's still another nearby stretch where tourists get confused since the bike path is a gentle continuation of the road crossing while the sidewalk is a sharp turn one way or a less purposeful wander through a park the other.

I cannot imagine trying to ride to work through a mess like that ....
Actual cycling cities seem to have far more congestion than depicted, even if it's all cycles. The existing ones seem to be primarily designed around the idea of short commutes at very slow speeds. Not a cycle to work to bypass the traffic mindset, but a that is how people get to work one.

There probably is room for something else in the US though, a sort of "bike highways" feeding at longer distances into more congested and dense urban paths. Typically you don't get that many people walking on the remote stretches, though on my really early starts of rail trail distance rides heading out of the city I sometimes saw far more joggers and dog walkers than bike commuters.

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Old 05-21-19, 11:36 AM
  #49  
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I used to think to the contrary, but have changed my mind. I now think all Strava segments on MUP's that are not clearly uphill at maybe 3% grade or more should be flagged. If the KOM is close to 20mph or faster, flagged. If the KOM is like 15mph uphill. Sure, you're good.

This 2 mile or 1/2 mile flat segments with corners at 25mph on an MUP is pure nonsense.

If you remove the carrot, some of the crazy MUP racer folks won't have incentive to try to be a fake hero any longer.

You could still go out there for a safer and protected workout. Shoot, even take the tri/TT bike out there for a workout. But.....without a segment to chase I betcha they'd dial back the crazy a good amount around blind corners and people.
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Old 05-21-19, 11:44 AM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by PoorBob View Post
remember these are MUPs not raceways....
No, but it might be a freeway - Cedar Lake Trail.




My point: not all MUPs (non-motor infrastructure) are created equal. Some trails are designed to accommodate more traffic and higher speeds.

But to the point of the OP, don't be a dick! And I've seen this issue cut both ways ... fast riders being a dick cause their chasing some silly Strava segment; and slow riders getting bent outa shape when somebody is obeying all the rules while safely going "too fast".
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