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Cyclists' safety ... on the road

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Cyclists' safety ... on the road

Old 06-17-19, 06:15 PM
  #26  
surak
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I told a dude who was signalling with his right arm bent upwards to indicate that he was turning right that it was wrong and potentially dangerous. He thanked me the next time and said he had no idea why he thought it was a thing.

I've yelled at people who are slowly weaving on their bikes while wearing headphones/earbuds and too spaced out to realize that they're blocking the MUP. They're more startled than thankful, but other people have thanked me for it.

Generally I keep my mouth shut if someone is doing it wrong, like wearing their helmet way too tilted up on their forehead or with saddle so low that their knees are splayed out like Charlie Chaplin when pedaling, because I'm sure they aren't interested in a stranger judging them. I've been tempted to remark that the law is to alert when passing and that I can barely see the ninjas riding without lights at night, but I feel like those are intentional enough actions that whatever I say would fall on deaf ears.
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Old 06-17-19, 06:28 PM
  #27  
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I don't encounter other cyclists often enough that it has ever been issue. When I do see other cyclists, they're usually passing me and we exchange only cursory greetings.

When driving, I occasionally see cyclists who could use a bit of education. But I see a lot more auto drivers who meet that description. In either case, wisdom dictates that the urge to offer corrective advice should be suppressed until it passes. Although from time to time it may be symbolically expressed with a lone finger.
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Old 06-17-19, 07:00 PM
  #28  
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First off, you cannot treat cars the same way you treat cars. We are not the same. A 2+ ton metallic/plastic/glass projectile travelling at 2x or 3x the speed of a 200-pound bike+cyclist does not have to take the same care as a cyclist. I'll admit I routinely run stop signs, treat red lights like stop signs, ridden on sidewalks, and in doing so I am completely aware of my surroundings. I am not putting myself in harm's way, nor am I endangering anyone else on the road. Yes, some drivers will see this as a total disregard for the law, most/all of which were written for cars, and I've had numerous nanny-types who yell out to me that it's a stop sign and I should stop, even though my running the stop sign in no way affected their forward progress. But some people just can't help but be self-righteous.

Keep in mind that if a driver makes a mistake/misjudgment, he's not only endangering himself but everyone else around him, especially cyclists and pedestrians. When cyclist makes a mistake/misjudgment almost all of the time he is the one who gets hurt, and no one else.
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Old 06-17-19, 07:39 PM
  #29  
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Stop signs, red lights, etc. are civic laws...not moral laws. Therefore, like many here, I do whatever I feel is necessary to protect my own safety and that of those around me. I will take the lane and stop at all red lights, but if I detect someone charging up from the rear, then I would run the light, (assuming the coast was clear), without a twinge of guilt. In the same vein, I do not creep past stopped traffic at a light. I take the lane and wait my turn. Many riders seem to blow through stop signs and red lights, not because there is a safety factor to consider, but because they do not want to mess up their average MPH, or they are just too lazy to have to stop and unclip and put their $400.00 racing shoe on the ground. I have passed riders on the MUP and then while waiting for a red light at the intersection, had them blow by me without even slowing down.
I actually quit riding a bicycle for a few years because I did not want to be associated with the cyclists I routinely saw running reds and blowing through stop signs. Now, when riding, I try to present a more balanced view of cyclists by being friendly and reasonably safe.
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Old 06-17-19, 08:50 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by holytrousers View Post
[
@wphamilton : can you please elaborate your statement ? What is the correlation between advising others and superficial understanding ?
It is a positive correlation - ie, inexperienced cyclists are more inclined to dispense instruction.

I could give you a number of examples, but imagine this: a person remembers the rules her mom taught her when she was six, and nobody is following them.

Or more commonly, a person has biked just enough that he thinks he's learned it all, but visibly lacks skills and judgement.A Dunning-Kruger kind of thing.
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Old 06-18-19, 03:56 AM
  #31  
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I do the same thing to other cyclists that I think need an education that motorists do to me when they think I need and education. Obviously the motorists are always right, and the message always finds a receptive audience. Right?
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Old 06-18-19, 04:49 AM
  #32  
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I've met three in the entire town lately, all parked at the free mealsite with me.
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Old 06-18-19, 07:08 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by holytrousers View Post
@Hypno Toad : don't you think avoiding colorful words can yield better results ?
The only 'result' I care about is that the dangerous person is not longer a threat to my safety; I find the right words really help punctuate my point and remove the threat to my safety.

FYI - the level of colorful words is on a spectrum based the the level of threat to my safety - minor dumb moves get minor cures; major dumba$$ moves that require evasive maneuvers, that'll get the the full George Carlin dirty words list.

Bottom line, after 35 years of riding the roads, I've found that my words will nearly never have any effect on the other person - they will not likely hear me, or understand me, or care, or ... I know that it's just me blowing off steam.

Now I need to log-off, I'm heading to an event organized by my town to create a more bikeable community ... that's how I make real change for safety of people using bikes in my neighborhood.
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Old 06-18-19, 07:54 AM
  #34  
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Last night on the way home I slowed and then rode past a stop sign next to a motorist. He felt compelled to pull next to me to tell me that there was a stop sign that I just ran past. I felt compelled to use some 'colourful language' to tell him what to do and where to go. When I almost caught up to him in the next stop sign I saw that he rolled right past it.

It's akin to someone driving the speed limit and yelling at anyone who drove past him, "Hey, it's a 50 zone!"
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Old 06-18-19, 10:46 AM
  #35  
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If they're doing something illegal, this usually works well:

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Old 06-18-19, 05:14 PM
  #36  
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@Daniel4 : living in a country where everyone is a potential gun owner unfortunately shifts the discussion to another level of abstraction.
@wphamilton : suppose that's true, it doesn't follow the other way around that anyone giving advice has to be inexperienced.
@surak : i believe the guy will be thankful to you for the rest of his life
@jon c. : that's also what i am starting to believe, if there's an urge to comment something or when it's loaded with some kind of emotion, it's better to wait until it passes. But with a friendly and good-willing attitude, i think it wonn't do any harm
@Rollfast : my sympathies
@Paul Barnard : Sorry but i couldn't get your point. Are you being sarcastic ?
@Hypno Toad and @DrIsotope @mcours2006 @oldgeezerjeff: i totally agree that using the proper words to express the proper meaning is the way honest people should be communicating. But i believe that as an endangered species, we should agree on a common behavioural strategy or etiquette to safely coexist with cars. If running stop signs or red lights infuriates other drivers, that behaviour should be avoided to situations where no other drivers are present.
Besides, i don't see how passing the red light can make one safer.
I am totally aware that to be safe among cars an appropriate level of alertness, confidence and audacity is necessary but disregarding the law is one of the factors that make car drivers hate us or disdain us in the least.
@AlmostTrick : i believe anarchy is possible among intelligent people
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Old 06-18-19, 06:12 PM
  #37  
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First off, there's nothing "endangered" about human beings. We are the greatest scourge this world has ever known. I continue to not give a damn about the feelings of drivers. The best I can expect from a typical driver is for them to not run me over.

The laws are there for them, because they are dangerous. I will continue to operate as I always have, with my own safety as paramount. BTW, I got close-passed three times today (and that is by me definition of a close pass, which is within 18 inches) and two of the three times were on multi-lane roads, where the vehicles could easily have gone into the other lane to give me room. Not all drivers, sure, but a whole lot of drivers just don't care.
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Old 06-18-19, 06:46 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by DrIsotope View Post
First off, there's nothing "endangered" about human beings. We are the greatest scourge this world has ever known. I continue to not give a damn about the feelings of drivers. The best I can expect from a typical driver is for them to not run me over.

The laws are there for them, because they are dangerous. I will continue to operate as I always have, with my own safety as paramount. BTW, I got close-passed three times today (and that is by me definition of a close pass, which is within 18 inches) and two of the three times were on multi-lane roads, where the vehicles could easily have gone into the other lane to give me room. Not all drivers, sure, but a whole lot of drivers just don't care.
We, Cyclists, was what i meant by "endangered species".
Besides that, what's the point about not giving so much a damn about the feelings of drivers ? why should they care about your feelings if you don't care about theirs ? Maybe you should give a less-hostile mindset a try ? A lot of it is in our heads you know ..
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Old 06-18-19, 07:54 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by holytrousers View Post
We, Cyclists, was what i meant by "endangered species".
Besides that, what's the point about not giving so much a damn about the feelings of drivers ? why should they care about your feelings if you don't care about theirs ? Maybe you should give a less-hostile mindset a try ? A lot of it is in our heads you know ..
Do you honestly think that you can change the way drivers feel about cyclists by stopping at stop signs and obeying ALL the rules of the road? You are much more naive than I first thought. They don't give a rat's ass about you regardless of what you do on the road. You, as a cyclist, and you as a fellow motorist, are only an impediment to them, keeping them from getting from A to B as quick as possible. Motorists have disdain for just about anyone on the road, in front of them, beside them, behind them, other motorists, pedestrians, cyclists, you name it. As @DrIsotope stated, the best you can hope for is that they run you over.
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Old 06-18-19, 09:00 PM
  #40  
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I disagree that a bad attitude doesn't influence the situation ... and I believe a good attitude does as well. Don't care in the least who disagrees ... but humorously, the people who trend to disagree tend the be people with bad attitudes, who justify their bad attitudes by saying, "Bad stuff happens to me all the time."

I Could say, "I keep a good attitude and bad stuff Doesn't happen to me all the time" but why waste the words?
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Old 06-18-19, 09:15 PM
  #41  
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Interesting. Thank you
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Old 06-19-19, 02:45 AM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by holytrousers View Post
When you encounter other cyclists putting themselves in danger, do you try to advice them or do you simply ignore them ?
"Am I my brothers keeper?" I won't say where that came from or I'll get in trouble. Suffice it to say I go further than just warning cyclist. Even if my words "fall on deaf ears" -- as they so often do here -- at least I can say I didn't just sit by and do nothing.

The good thing about my lecturing it that I don't make up anything new. The things I repeat to others are those thing that somebody else came up with (and said to me) long before I came alone. In most cases, far, far, longer.
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Old 06-19-19, 05:04 AM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by holytrousers View Post
@Daniel4: would you mind sharing your experience concerning those violent reactions ? Personally, no one ever reacted violently when i gave him an advice for his own safety. When i catch a car that has just put me in danger and i shout at him, they usually apologise. I never use vulgar language, though.

@DrIsotope: i didn't follow on what basis do you claim that every adult knows right from wrong ? i didn't know right from wrong when i rode without a light, i survived, miraculously. I have a big scar on my face. I am glad i was a helmet-nanny at that time. If i knew at that moment that riding without a taillight would lead to that accident, i would have opted for a train. Now i know : no light = no ride.
Maybe that's civic attitude to share one's lessons ? Isn't that what culture is about ?
Speaking of law, i expect car drivers to deal with me as if they were dealing with a car : that's the only way to be safe on the road. If we are not respecting the same rules, how can you ever imagine car drivers will respect us ?

@rumrunn6 : that's exactly what i'm talking about, simple things that can improve other's safety. The other day i was escorting at night a young cyclist because he didn't have taillights on a dark busy highway. I asked him why he didn't even wear a helmet ? He said he was afraid about his hairdo. Young people have to be told about what is important and what is not. Cool-looking shouldn't come their minds before Surviving.

@wphamilton : can you please elaborate your statement ? What is the correlation between advising others and superficial understanding ?

@ThermionicScott : i wasn't aware we were talking about scolding other cyclists. Do you care for other cyclists' safety when you encounter them on the road ? Have you had any experience with advising them ?

@Hypno Toad : don't you think avoiding colorful words can yield better results ?
He clearly and correctly stated that ‘virtually’ every adult knows right from wrong.
Why did you reference it as him saying ‘every’ adult?
That alone basically invalidates all the rest of your nonsense in this thread imo.
I am glad though that at the very least the incident inspired you to potentially change your method of transportation in the event you are able to see into the future. Who knew that had to be learned?
I hope you take the train next time
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Old 06-19-19, 06:57 AM
  #44  
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Let's put it this way. The OP asks if we ever give out unsolicited advise when we encounter someone doing something we disagree with.

And then, on the responses that the OP doesn't appear to agree, the OP challenges them. This is only on-line.

What would it be like face-to-face and in person? The OP's reaction is precisely what I learned to avoid when confronting someone on the road with unsolicated advice.

Last edited by Daniel4; 06-19-19 at 07:02 AM.
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Old 06-19-19, 07:09 AM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by holytrousers View Post
@Hypno Toad and @DrIsotope @mcours2006 @oldgeezerjeff: i totally agree that using the proper words to express the proper meaning is the way honest people should be communicating. But i believe that as an endangered species, we should agree on a common behavioural strategy or etiquette to safely coexist with cars. If running stop signs or red lights infuriates other drivers, that behaviour should be avoided to situations where no other drivers are present.
Besides, i don't see how passing the red light can make one safer.
I am totally aware that to be safe among cars an appropriate level of alertness, confidence and audacity is necessary but disregarding the law is one of the factors that make car drivers hate us or disdain us in the least.
You know what infuriates me, people driving over the speed limit*; people driving while distracted ** ... and all sorts of deadly behaviors while operating two or more tons of motor vehicle. People rolling a stop sign on a bike are not killing 35,000+ people in the US each year. People driving cars, they are the ones racking up the death count. I'm angry about the focus on being "annoyed" by people on bikes and fail to focus on the things that are killing people.

During the bikeablity workshop yesterday, I found out that our bike specific stop light *** is unique and required a lot of paperwork by our town. The bike light gives the green to bike traffic while keeping other traffic on red. This is for safety of the person riding a bike. However, you can count on your hand the number of bike specific lights in Minnesota. So why do people on bikes jump the light - for their safety ... and the way we create proper bike infrastructure supports that it is safer for the people on bikes to get a head start. Additionally, cities focused on walkability are making the same change to crossing signals, the walk signal leads the green light for traffic.

BTW - do you need to tell people walking across the street against the light that they are 'dangerous'? If you do that, you'd lose your voice inside an hour. So it seems the root problem is "the bike", not the law-breaking.

An easy Googles search will give you dozens of results like this: Study: Cyclists Don’t Break Traffic Laws Any More Than Drivers Do or this Why do bikers run red lights?

Or these:
*There were 37,461 traffic fatalities in 2016. Among them 10,111 (27%) were in crashes where at least one driver was speeding.
** Each day in the United States, approximately 9 people are killed and more than 1,000 injured in crashes that are reported to involve a distracted driver.

Hopkins, MN bike light and cyclopath (The Artery)
*** https://www.google.com/maps/@44.9245...2!8i6656?hl=en


Last edited by Hypno Toad; 06-19-19 at 07:15 AM. Reason: the ever present typo
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Old 06-19-19, 07:52 AM
  #46  
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Very few adults ride bikes compared to how many drive. There fore--this is America, after all--people who ride bikes are freaks and loonies and are undeserving of the protections afford to solid, upright, car-driving citizens. if they want respect, they can join the herd with the rest of us.

Sound stupid but it is in fact a deep-seated mindset which is prevalent in this country, by my experience.

If you are not like me, you don't reinforce me, therefore you are against me. You are The other, and we all know that none of Us cause all these problems ... it's you guys.

Land of the Free, Home of the Brave .... hope I get to live there some day.
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Old 06-19-19, 08:41 AM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by Hypno Toad View Post
You know what infuriates me, people driving over the speed limit*; people driving while distracted ** ... and all sorts of deadly behaviors while operating two or more tons of motor vehicle. People rolling a stop sign on a bike are not killing 35,000+ people in the US each year. People driving cars, they are the ones racking up the death count. I'm angry about the focus on being "annoyed" by people on bikes and fail to focus on the things that are killing people.

During the bikeablity workshop yesterday, I found out that our bike specific stop light *** is unique and required a lot of paperwork by our town. The bike light gives the green to bike traffic while keeping other traffic on red. This is for safety of the person riding a bike. However, you can count on your hand the number of bike specific lights in Minnesota. So why do people on bikes jump the light - for their safety ... and the way we create proper bike infrastructure supports that it is safer for the people on bikes to get a head start. Additionally, cities focused on walkability are making the same change to crossing signals, the walk signal leads the green light for traffic.

BTW - do you need to tell people walking across the street against the light that they are 'dangerous'? If you do that, you'd lose your voice inside an hour. So it seems the root problem is "the bike", not the law-breaking.

An easy Googles search will give you dozens of results like this: Study: Cyclists Don’t Break Traffic Laws Any More Than Drivers Do or this Why do bikers run red lights?

Or these:
*There were 37,461 traffic fatalities in 2016. Among them 10,111 (27%) were in crashes where at least one driver was speeding.
** Each day in the United States, approximately 9 people are killed and more than 1,000 injured in crashes that are reported to involve a distracted driver.

Hopkins, MN bike light and cyclopath (The Artery)
*** https://www.google.com/maps/@44.9245...2!8i6656?hl=en

Cyclists and pedestrians who violate traffic laws are a annoyances but not a danger to anybody else on the road except to themselves.

Of all the close calls I have had with cyclists running reds or stop signs, I had never been in a collision with them. (And so goes the axiom inferred in the BikeForums.net that for all the x years of doing y, nothing bad has happened so nothing bad will ever happen.)

A road fatality or a public lecture by the mayor won't change the behaviour of all the other drivers on the road. Personally, confronting a single bad driver will get you backlash.

Lecturing bad cyclists in discussion forums won't change their behaviours. So neither would confronting cyclists on the road.

Just move on. If you've just survived a near miss, consider that GOD is looking after you to live another day. If you choose confrontation, well good luck.
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Old 06-19-19, 09:38 AM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by Daniel4 View Post
Cyclists and pedestrians who violate traffic laws are a annoyances but not a danger to anybody else on the road except to themselves.

Of all the close calls I have had with cyclists running reds or stop signs, I had never been in a collision with them. (And so goes the axiom inferred in the BikeForums.net that for all the x years of doing y, nothing bad has happened so nothing bad will ever happen.)

A road fatality or a public lecture by the mayor won't change the behaviour of all the other drivers on the road. Personally, confronting a single bad driver will get you backlash.

Lecturing bad cyclists in discussion forums won't change their behaviours. So neither would confronting cyclists on the road.

Just move on. If you've just survived a near miss, consider that GOD is looking after you to live another day. If you choose confrontation, well good luck.
Incorrect. On both accounts. Peer pressure has a very distinct impact on human behavior.

Last edited by KraneXL; 06-19-19 at 06:46 PM.
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Old 06-19-19, 09:48 AM
  #49  
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"Peer" pressure is the key here.

The two rednecks in th pick-up coal-rolling the pack of cyclists consider each other "peers." They do not consider the dozen or so cyclists "peers." If some other redneck said something, they Might listen. If the cyclists say something, no matter what, it is encouragement to keep doing it.

Capture it on camera, instead of being shamed, they will proudly post the video for their friends ... and be much applauded, offering further encouragement.

That is how "peer pressure" actually works.
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Old 06-19-19, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by KraneXL View Post
Incorrect. On both accounts. Peer pressure has a very distinct impact on human behavior.
Incorrect about what?

Incorrect that I had never had a collision with a red light or a stop sign runner? How would you know?

Incorrect that cyclists and pedestrians who violate traffic laws put only themselves in danger? I haven't ever heard of any motorist or cyclist death due to a pedestrian or cyclist colliding into them. If there are, they must be rare and statistically insignificant to warrant authoritative action.

Incorrect that neither road fatalities nor the mayor's lecture to drive more carefully changes driver behaviour? Year after year, road fatalities in Toronto remain at around 60 to 70 pedestrians, cyclists and motorists regardless of how many times the mayor makes that same lecture. The same goes for the 36,000 road death for the US. It doesn't look like there's any sign of improved behaviour.
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