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Electric speeders on the local MUP

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Electric speeders on the local MUP

Old 06-18-19, 12:08 PM
  #26  
PoorBob
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The questions becomes in the grey fog, is an E bike a motorized vehicle?

For now most would not apply, but I am sure over time this will be revisited.
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Old 06-18-19, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by PoorBob View Post
The questions becomes in the grey fog, is an E bike a motorized vehicle?
It depends on how they get categorized. IMHO, if it is only pedal assist, then it is an e-bike. If it has a throttle and can go without requiring the rider to pedal, then it is an electric moped and should be regulated as such.

As with everything. There will be some ******bags out there that will modify them to go faster and will cause a lot of grief for those with a legitimate need or desire to have an electric assist bike. A older friend that we see every Friday evening when we go out has an electric assist bike and it helps him get out and be active. He is a slender guy but just up in years and I cay more power to him.
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Old 06-18-19, 12:50 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by PoorBob View Post
The questions becomes in the grey fog, is an E bike a motorized vehicle?

For now most would not apply, but I am sure over time this will be revisited.
That's been my prediction from the beginning.

They're getting faster and more powerful by the day.
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Old 06-18-19, 02:02 PM
  #29  
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And thatís the way the manufacturers are selling them and thatís going just the wrong way for all of us.
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Old 06-18-19, 10:53 PM
  #30  
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Horse riders never won the battle against the motor car. Suck it up, folks.

From my perspective though, it's the manual bikes being ridden unsociably. The need to maintain velocity at inappropriate times is a big one. E-bikers aren't inconvenienced by stopping. Roadies looking at the ground and smashing into things.

If we're gonna do the whole 'divided we fight' thing, we e-cyclists are ready.
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Old 06-18-19, 11:05 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by KraneXL View Post
That's been my prediction from the beginning.

They're getting faster and more powerful by the day.
But NEVER this!


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Old 06-19-19, 01:58 AM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by Rollfast View Post
But NEVER this!





I expect to see all the major motorcycle manufactures releasing their all electric motorcycles (EM) any day now (many already have). Who will popularize the first EM? I'm betting Honda.

Luckily, we won't see them on the MUP, but how 'bout an electric tandem?
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Old 06-19-19, 07:11 AM
  #33  
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This was and to some extent still is a significant problem in The Netherlands and the rest of Europe. They are being cautious about how restrictive they are but at the same time are wanting to make sure that they effectively deal with the problem.

It's critical as well to understand the elements of sustainable safety which include ****genization of speed and mass. IOW, they will rarely mix people walking (3 mph) with people riding bicycles or mobility scooters (typically 10-16 mph).

Europe wide an e-bike approved for use on a bikeway may not have any motor assist above 25 km/h (15 mph) and must be assist only - E.G., no throttles allowed and some portion of propulsion must be provided by the rider unless they are certified disabled. Some places are stricter with a 20 km/h (12.4 mph) upper limit, that is more in line with the top speeds the majority of people are going, as well as stricter rules on how much assist may be provided. This latter is typically in the form of only allowing some % of assist up to perhaps 10 km/h and then assist must taper to 0 by the upper limit. IOW, we'll help you keep up with average people on a bikeway but if you want to go faster it's up to you.

What they're finding is that the current strictest rules seem to be largely dealing with the problems while still providing people who need assistance with adequate assistance. My guess is that there will be one more slight tightening of Amsterdam rules and then this will become the standard throughout The Netherlands and eventually Europe.

Originally Posted by UniChris View Post
If the e-bike were only going the same speed as the pedal one it wouldn't be very different.
Actually it is different depending on how much assist someone has. Something that has been noticed in The Netherlands and Germany is that the more someone provides their own power the more considerate they are of others providing their own power. This is one of the reasons that Europe is moving towards tapered assist.

Last edited by CrankyOne; 06-19-19 at 07:31 AM.
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Old 06-19-19, 07:28 AM
  #34  
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To add some perspective. Riding my 40lb Opafiets @ 13 mph on flat ground requires about 70 watts. My max on my slightly hilly ride to a local cafť each morning is 92 watts.

During the entire time that I had power meter pedals on it I think my highest output was 190 watts climbing a fairly steep hill.

Even a 50 watt motor would provide 3/4 of my propulsion on flat ground and over half up smaller hills. 100 watts would provide 100% of my power for most of my daily riding and half for the most strenuous hill I climb.

Granted, these aren't road racing levels of power (my max is about 400 watts IIRC) but they are the levels of about 97% of the population and they are my levels for routine transportation or recreational riding (E.G., anything but racing or training).
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Old 06-19-19, 07:30 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by CrankyOne View Post
Europe wide an e-bike approved for use on a bikeway may not have any motor assist above 25 km/h (15 mph) and must be assist only - E.G., no throttles allowed and some portion of propulsion must be provided by the rider unless they are certified disabled. Some places are stricter with a 20 km/h (12.4 mph) upper limit as well as stricter rules on how much assist may be provided. This latter is typically in the form of only allowing some % of assist up to perhaps 10 km/h and then assist must taper to 0 by the upper limit. IOW, if you want to go fast on a bikeway it's up to you.
This sounds a lot more appropriate to mixing with existing bike traffic, rather than replacing (and implicitly displacing) it.

I wish the people voting for 20 mph as the lowest class were given an opportunity to ride a citibike with a simple speedometer added to it first, from a driver perspective that number means little, but I doubt most of them could get anywhere near it for more than a sprint. Or to ride a citibike at their comfortable speed while experiencing a steady stream of people passing them at 20.

Actually it is different depending on how much assist someone has. Something that has been noticed in The Netherlands and Germany is that the more someone provides their own power the more considerate they are of others providing their own power. This is one of the reasons that Europe is moving towards tapered assist.
The "personal energy investment" is a good thought, too - part of the problem with motors is going fast when it's not really worth it - you get the whole cager mentality of winning the race to the next red light (if that even means anything), etc. That said, my own thinking has tended to turn more towards things like lowered cutout limits on inclines, etc to better model the speed profile of a pedal bike for traffic compatibility.

Last edited by UniChris; 06-19-19 at 07:34 AM.
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Old 06-19-19, 07:41 AM
  #36  
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Add more chicanes and stairways to the MUP? here we have some overwater trestles Planked over,
and share a lot of places where an active trolly line runs down the center..

so there is a gap for trapping wheels ..
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Old 06-19-19, 08:06 AM
  #37  
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The Toronto speed limit on multi-use trails is 20km/hr. To pedestrians, I would think this is pretty fast. A jogger is around 9 to 10 km/hr. A 100m sprinter in 10seconds is 36km/hr. So until a fatality does occur due to a bicycle going at 20km/hr this top speed will remain.

On the other hand, how many motorists obey the speed limit anyways?
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Old 06-19-19, 08:35 AM
  #38  
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Looks to me that e-bikes are the future, especially in states/cities that are anti-ICE vehicles. I doubt they are going to cater to traditional bikes as a privileged class so we might as well get used to it.

scott s.
.
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Old 06-19-19, 04:45 PM
  #39  
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The "solution" to E-Bikes being "bicycles with some assistance" or actually being motorised bicycles, (mopeds) is rather simple, IMO The EU has done it already, they are passing Laws that say things like this, To be Legally considered a bicycle the E-Bike...

1, cannot have more than 350 watts of power, some places say 250 watts of power...
2, cannot have a throttle...
3, must have a torque sensor and only apply a certain amount of assistance per rider input into pedaling effert...
4, the assistance must cut out at 25 Km, or some places 20Km/Hr...
5, and Lately, the % of assistance must even start to be reduced at 10Km/Hr and by the time one reaches 25Km/Hr or 20Km cut out completely...

I suspect once the % of E-Bike riders reach a certain point here in N America the same thing will happen, the Laws will catch up and change... JMO

Last edited by 350htrr; 06-19-19 at 04:53 PM.
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Old 06-19-19, 08:12 PM
  #40  
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To the op.

How do feel about a person on a road bike doing the same speed as the ebikes that pass you?
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Old 06-19-19, 08:14 PM
  #41  
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Advertisement on todays local newspaper site features these three words.

Foldable, Lightweight, Fast.

Swagtron bikes. Leading the way down the slope.
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Old 06-19-19, 10:10 PM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by Bmach View Post
To the op.

How do feel about a person on a road bike doing the same speed as the ebikes that pass you?
People on bicycles learn the safety techniques and develop cycling skills as they develop power. While aberrant cycling elitist may exist, they generally better understand and adhere to the hazards and dangers when excessive speed is inappropriate to the environment. The typical person on an e-bikes is unaware and does none of this.
Originally Posted by scott967 View Post
Looks to me that e-bikes are the future, especially in states/cities that are anti-ICE vehicles. I doubt they are going to cater to traditional bikes as a privileged class so we might as well get used to it.

scott s.
.
They are the future, and growing exponentially. I personally have no disdain for e-bikes only their proliferation onto already overcrowded sidewalks, bike lanes and paths.

With that in mind, my only objection is e-bikes taking on the category of bicycle. Anything beyond a pedelec (pedal assisted bike) should not be classified as a bicycle,
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Old 06-20-19, 06:42 AM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by Bmach View Post
How do feel about a person on a road bike doing the same speed as the ebikes that pass you?
In Europe they are overall quite respectful. There are occasionally some who are less considerate but the vast majority are not a problem.

They seem considerably less considerate in the U.S. and some even antagonistic towards people walking or riding slower than racing pace. Even so, percentage wise, e-bike riders are much worse.
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Old 06-20-19, 11:45 AM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by Rick View Post
I am going to purchase a Yuba Mundo Lux which is the Version 5. It has a cargo payload of 200kg. This is 440lbs. I doubt that I will ever load it up with that much weight. I am going to put a Heinzmann cargo bike motor on it. I will put the front hub version on it. I need the torque not the speed. It puts out 600watts and 111 max torque. at 25km. Hardened steel gears in an oil bath. GVW of around 700lbs.
Sorry, but something that big and powerful has no business being on a MUP. That's strictly a road vehicle.
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Old 06-20-19, 12:07 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by Bmach View Post
To the op.

How do feel about a person on a road bike doing the same speed as the ebikes that pass you?
Funny you should mention this--I was on a no speed limit very not crowded MUP (Nashua River Rail Trail) a couple weeks ago, and I came up on a guy riding on what looked like a clunky hybrid pedaling very slowly and erratically. I was riding my normal fast pace, and it's taking me a little while to gradually gain on him. I'm feeling really weird that I'm pushing pretty hard and he looks like he should be going 10-12 mph at the most. I announce my pass, but I don't think he heard me because as I was pulling up alongside him, he gets this really alarmed look on his face, starts pedaling frantically, and I swear doesn't go the slightest bit faster. Only then did I look down and see the electric hubs--he was on an ebike and his assist had maxed out. Since there are no significant hills on the path, I zipped by him and never saw him again.

He did not look like Lance. Yeah, I'm bragging. Sue me.
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Old 06-20-19, 01:28 PM
  #46  
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I think in here someplace is the overall issue...

Before bikes there were a lot of people on MUPs, most well behaved, some clueless, and others down right jerks.... All that said we all fell under the same motive power, we were all powered 100% by our own muscle. So now the people listed above are separated from the human power group to an assisted power group. Now an additional game is being played on the same field, and its getting crowded.
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Old 06-20-19, 05:59 PM
  #47  
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I think the real issue is that people hate pelotons of MAMILs who deliver pizzas while riding hacked crabon e-bikes with strobe lights taking a break and blocking the MUP.

-mr. bill
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Old 06-20-19, 07:00 PM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by mr_bill View Post
I think the real issue is that people hate pelotons of MAMILs who deliver pizzas while riding hacked crabon e-bikes with strobe lights taking a break and blocking the MUP.

-mr. bill
Ok... That is darned funny...
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Old 06-20-19, 07:18 PM
  #49  
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An on-coming cyclist nearly hit me today, and the incident gave me an interesting new perspective.

I was cruising along at 12-14mph round a long, wide bend on a circa 5ft wide MUP with a high hedge on the inside. So visibility was around 3 seconds. I was on the outside, which was my side of the path.

Suddenly a cyclist came at me, kinda on my side. He was going notably faster, panicked, weaved around as he struggled to override his reactions and get his bike over his side.

Buzzy hub, drop bars, tiny tyres, patterned tight top.. this was a roadie who seemed to forget he was on an MUP. No hat though, oddly.

I didn't flinch. I just held my ground. The whole episode took less than two seconds, indicating that was his visibility distance, and the time it took him to get it together and miss me. I'd guess with that, plus what I saw in general skatty bike movement, that he was doing about 25mph. Not as fast as he could've been with some commitment, but quicker than conditions allowed.

Now you'll probably be thinking I'm here to enjoy the chance to do a bit of roadie-bashing. I make no apologies for my attitude that most are the boy racers of the cycling world. Happy to make uncomfortable and unsafe compromises to go unsociably faster.

But no. For some reason, it became apparent that he was just doing his normal. Riding that way, and having that attitude, is all he knows.

So then this topic popped into my head. And the attitude towards e-bikes I see here on Bike Forums. See, we judge the world based on our own experiences and values. I wouldn't trust him on my e-bike because he'd ride it dangerously. I was sat there at like 13mph but tell him it can do four times that speed and he'd want it banned from the MUP..

And it surprises me when I see that here, by people living in the land of ''Guns don't kill people, people do''.
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Old 06-20-19, 07:24 PM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by MikeyMK View Post
An on-coming cyclist nearly hit me today, and the incident gave me an interesting new perspective.

I was cruising along at 12-14mph round a long, wide bend on a circa 5ft wide MUP with a high hedge on the inside. So visibility was around 3 seconds. I was on the outside, which was my side of the path.

Suddenly a cyclist came at me, kinda on my side. He was going notably faster, panicked, weaved around as he struggled to override his reactions and get his bike over his side.

Buzzy hub, drop bars, tiny tyres, patterned tight top.. this was a roadie who seemed to forget he was on an MUP. No hat though, oddly.

I didn't flinch. I just held my ground. The whole episode took less than two seconds, indicating that was his visibility distance, and the time it took him to get it together and miss me. I'd guess with that, plus what I saw in general skatty bike movement, that he was doing about 25mph. Not as fast as he could've been with some commitment, but quicker than conditions allowed.

Now you'll probably be thinking I'm here to enjoy the chance to do a bit of roadie-bashing. I make no apologies for my attitude that most are the boy racers of the cycling world. Happy to make uncomfortable and unsafe compromises to go unsociably faster.

But no. For some reason, it became apparent that he was just doing his normal. Riding that way, and having that attitude, is all he knows.

So then this topic popped into my head. And the attitude towards e-bikes I see here on Bike Forums. See, we judge the world based on our own experiences and values. I wouldn't trust him on my e-bike because he'd ride it dangerously. I was sat there at like 13mph but tell him it can do four times that speed and he'd want it banned from the MUP..

And it surprises me when I see that here, by people living in the land of ''Guns don't kill people, people do''.
and... There you go, It ends up that people actually ARE the "problem". now I am fairly sure that wasn't what you meant , but, there you/we, are...
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