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Electric speeders on the local MUP

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Electric speeders on the local MUP

Old 06-20-19, 08:21 PM
  #51  
UniChris
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Originally Posted by MikeyMK View Post
So then this topic popped into my head. And the attitude towards e-bikes I see here on Bike Forums. See, we judge the world based on our own experiences and values. I wouldn't trust him on my e-bike because he'd ride it dangerously. I was sat there at like 13mph but tell him it can do four times that speed and he'd want it banned from the MUP..

And it surprises me when I see that here, by people living in the land of ''Guns don't kill people, people do''.
You just told us you would not trust the other guy on your e-bike.

Therefore he should not be riding your e-bike there, unless it was required to have some more reasonable speed/accleration/whatever governor on it.

And since we can't discriminate, as a result *no one* should be allowed to ride your e-bike there, unless it has such required restrictions built into it.

All this follows inescapably from your "I wouldn't trust him on my e-bike because he'd ride it dangerously" comment.

That you wouldn't ride it dangerously yourself is noble, but in a rule-making sense, irrelevant, because you just gave an example of someone you believe would.

Or maybe that is what you were trying to say?
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Old 06-20-19, 08:39 PM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by MikeyMK View Post
An on-coming cyclist nearly hit me today, and the incident gave me an interesting new perspective.

I was cruising along at 12-14mph round a long, wide bend on a circa 5ft wide MUP with a high hedge on the inside. So visibility was around 3 seconds. I was on the outside, which was my side of the path.

Suddenly a cyclist came at me, kinda on my side. He was going notably faster, panicked, weaved around as he struggled to override his reactions and get his bike over his side.

Buzzy hub, drop bars, tiny tyres, patterned tight top.. this was a roadie who seemed to forget he was on an MUP. No hat though, oddly.

I didn't flinch. I just held my ground. The whole episode took less than two seconds, indicating that was his visibility distance, and the time it took him to get it together and miss me. I'd guess with that, plus what I saw in general skatty bike movement, that he was doing about 25mph. Not as fast as he could've been with some commitment, but quicker than conditions allowed.

Now you'll probably be thinking I'm here to enjoy the chance to do a bit of roadie-bashing. I make no apologies for my attitude that most are the boy racers of the cycling world. Happy to make uncomfortable and unsafe compromises to go unsociably faster.

But no. For some reason, it became apparent that he was just doing his normal. Riding that way, and having that attitude, is all he knows.

So then this topic popped into my head. And the attitude towards e-bikes I see here on Bike Forums. See, we judge the world based on our own experiences and values. I wouldn't trust him on my e-bike because he'd ride it dangerously. I was sat there at like 13mph but tell him it can do four times that speed and he'd want it banned from the MUP..

And it surprises me when I see that here, by people living in the land of ''Guns don't kill people, people do''.
Sounds like a synopsis for a screenplay: Chicken Game Cyclist? In the real world however, what happens to you, happens to him.
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Old 06-21-19, 09:40 AM
  #53  
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It's the fundamental problem of equality. People are different. And whilst the minorities shout the loudest to be correct, democracy shows the truths of feeling.

I'm all for the unofficial elite system. Like the platinum driving licence. I'd have one of these. Because there's a time when 30mph is too fast, and 40mph is too slow. On the same stretch of road.

And it's a flaw in the systems we use, that we have to pander to the lowest common denominator. But then, if you're savvy enough to qualify for a platinum lifestyle, you're savvy enough not to need a card for it.
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Old 06-21-19, 10:23 AM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by MikeyMK View Post
if you're savvy enough to qualify for a platinum lifestyle, you're savvy enough not to need a card for it.
Oh, you mean like owning a car... or maybe in today's world, ubering everywhere
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Old 06-21-19, 10:38 AM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by MikeyMK View Post
I didn't flinch. I just held my ground. The whole episode took less than two seconds, indicating that was his visibility distance, and the time it took him to get it together and miss me. I'd guess with that, plus what I saw in general skatty bike movement, that he was doing about 25mph. Not as fast as he could've been with some commitment, but quicker than conditions allowed.
So you didnít move over to give more room? You wanted him to crash, run into you or someone else?
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Old 06-21-19, 02:12 PM
  #56  
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In Minnesota, an e-bike is restricted to a top assisted speed of 20mph, which seems reasonable to me. When asking "why are there still safety problems", a parallel trend to consider is the increased use of Bird/Lime/etc motorized kick-scooters. These are typically allowed on MUPs and have a max speed of only 15 mph, but are actually a bigger nuisance than e-bikes in my experience. So even limiting to 15mph doesn't fix the problem.

I think one cause of the problem is that many of the e-bike/e-scooter users are new MUP users. At least, some of them are definitely not behaving like experienced cyclists. Do we want to get drivers out of their cars and onto two wheels? Yes, hurray! But if they are new to 2-wheel mobility, they may bring their cager habits with them. Boo, hiss. Sadly, there's no free lunch, here.

Last edited by specialgreen; 06-21-19 at 05:56 PM.
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Old 06-21-19, 03:31 PM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by 12bike View Post
So you didnít move over to give more room? You wanted him to crash, run into you or someone else?
Nobody else there, nowhere to go. If it came to it I'd have stopped, but the noteworthy aspect here is staying where I'm supposed to be instead of adding more confusion into the mix.
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Old 06-21-19, 03:35 PM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by MikeyMK View Post
Nobody else there, nowhere to go. If it came to it I'd have stopped, but the noteworthy aspect here is staying where I'm supposed to be instead of adding more confusion into the mix.
Oh, that makes sense. Thatís completely the 4ight thing you did then. I got the wrong impression.
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Old 06-21-19, 06:45 PM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by MikeyMK View Post
Nobody else there, nowhere to go. If it came to it I'd have stopped, but the noteworthy aspect here is staying where I'm supposed to be instead of adding more confusion into the mix.
There is a provision that allows for you to deviate from the norm to avoid an accident. Thing is, you'd better be prepared to prove it should the legal need arise.

But yeah, my generic response is to remain stationary and just let the other one go around to avoid any confusion. If that goes to court you can always state you were standing still. Good luck trying to prove blame in that scenario.
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Old 06-21-19, 08:00 PM
  #60  
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Sorry, but something that big and powerful has no business being on a MUP. That's strictly a road vehicle
I personally haven't had any business on an MUP since the 25ft lead hooked to a Pot Bellied Pig took me out in 1983. So no worries there. I ride on the road.
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Old 06-22-19, 02:34 PM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by 12bike View Post
Oh, that makes sense. Thatís completely the 4ight thing you did then. I got the wrong impression.
I can see how, i did sound a bit ''Well i'm not moving for nobody..''



Originally Posted by KraneXL View Post
There is a provision that allows for you to deviate from the norm to avoid an accident. Thing is, you'd better be prepared to prove it should the legal need arise.

But yeah, my generic response is to remain stationary and just let the other one go around to avoid any confusion. If that goes to court you can always state you were standing still. Good luck trying to prove blame in that scenario.
I'm both equipped and prepared to to divert down a flight of stairs, covered in smashed glass, if need be. If that's a sure-fire way of avoiding an accident. But usually it's simply a question of holding straight and standing your position.

I find pedestrians i come up behind fail hard at this. I reflected this problem in a topic on using a bell.
If there are pedestrians in front of me on the MUP i can roll around them - as long as they keep their line. Today though, on a hot and sunny day with loads of 'the summer club' out, it was like crazy golf! People were like goal keepers! I attempt to ride past someone, and they step 2ft to the side.. i'm passing on.. Why do people do that?!
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Old 06-22-19, 02:41 PM
  #62  
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Originally Posted by MikeyMK View Post
I find pedestrians i come up behind fail hard at this. I reflected this problem in a topic on using a bell.
If there are pedestrians in front of me on the MUP i can roll around them - as long as they keep their line. Today though, on a hot and sunny day with loads of 'the summer club' out, it was like crazy golf! People were like goal keepers! I attempt to ride past someone, and they step 2ft to the side.. i'm passing on.. Why do people do that?!
Both of the times I've been hit while walking by grossly incompetent cyclists doing things they shouldn't have been doing in the first place (running a light, using a pedestrian lane to salmon) I stopped moving so they could avoid; instead they rode straight into me while making eye contact, assuming that I'd get out of their way.

Fortunately with incompetence came slowness.
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Old 06-22-19, 05:35 PM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by UniChris View Post
Both of the times I've been hit while walking by grossly incompetent cyclists doing things they shouldn't have been doing in the first place (running a light, using a pedestrian lane to salmon) I stopped moving so they could avoid; instead they rode straight into me while making eye contact, assuming that I'd get out of their way.

Fortunately with incompetence came slowness.
And in another thread in the A&S forum, you'd be blamed for not getting out of the way regardless of what the traffic laws say.
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Old 06-22-19, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by MikeyMK View Post
I can see how, i did sound a bit ''Well i'm not moving for nobody..''


I'm both equipped and prepared to to divert down a flight of stairs, covered in smashed glass, if need be. If that's a sure-fire way of avoiding an accident. But usually it's simply a question of holding straight and standing your position.

I find pedestrians i come up behind fail hard at this. I reflected this problem in a topic on using a bell.
If there are pedestrians in front of me on the MUP i can roll around them - as long as they keep their line. Today though, on a hot and sunny day with loads of 'the summer club' out, it was like crazy golf! People were like goal keepers! I attempt to ride past someone, and they step 2ft to the side.. i'm passing on.. Why do people do that?!
Anticipation? I've noticed that animals are a lot better at this since they don't try to "out think" what the other person is going to do.

Try this: start ringing your bell well in advance (I'll do a couple hundred feet depending on speed), while holding a straight and steady pace on the side you wish to pass. If they notice your position and speed far enough in advance, they will be inclined to maintain their position -- and a lot less likely to do something unpredictable. Just don't change your course (if you change, they will change and everything unravels). Rather, slow down and be prepared to stop, if you have to.

Its not perfect of course (I've still have people look right at me and still walk right out in front of the bike only feet before we intersect0, but its the most reliable system I've found that works more times than not.
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Old 06-23-19, 06:22 AM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by KraneXL View Post
Anticipation? I've noticed that animals are a lot better at this since they don't try to "out think" what the other person is going to do.

Try this: start ringing your bell well in advance (I'll do a couple hundred feet depending on speed), while holding a straight and steady pace on the side you wish to pass. If they notice your position and speed far enough in advance, they will be inclined to maintain their position -- and a lot less likely to do something unpredictable. Just don't change your course (if you change, they will change and everything unravels). Rather, slow down and be prepared to stop, if you have to.

Its not perfect of course (I've still have people look right at me and still walk right out in front of the bike only feet before we intersect0, but its the most reliable system I've found that works more times than not.
Very very very well said.
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Old 06-23-19, 06:44 PM
  #66  
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Originally Posted by MikeyMK View Post
So then this topic popped into my head. And the attitude towards e-bikes I see here on Bike Forums. See, we judge the world based on our own experiences and values. I wouldn't trust him on my e-bike because he'd ride it dangerously. I was sat there at like 13mph but tell him it can do four times that speed and he'd want it banned from the MUP..

And it surprises me when I see that here, by people living in the land of ''Guns don't kill people, people do''.
Views about guns in the US are a lot more diverse than you know, but that's off-topic.

If your vehicle can do 52 mph, you have no business operating it on a bike path at any speed, in my view. The main idea behind such paths is to provide a segregated alternative for small human powered vehicles that are too slow to operate in the traffic lanes of roads. Your ebike is capable of being driven in the traffic lanes at the same speed as the cars, so in my mind, what you are doing is no different from someone riding a motorcycle slowly on a mup. Your vehicle belongs in the street, you're just usurping a resource designated for one purpose for your convenience.
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Old 06-24-19, 12:21 AM
  #67  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
Views about guns in the US are a lot more diverse than you know, but that's off-topic.

If your vehicle can do 52 mph, you have no business operating it on a bike path at any speed, in my view. The main idea behind such paths is to provide a segregated alternative for small human powered vehicles that are too slow to operate in the traffic lanes of roads. Your ebike is capable of being driven in the traffic lanes at the same speed as the cars, so in my mind, what you are doing is no different from someone riding a motorcycle slowly on a mup. Your vehicle belongs in the street, you're just usurping a resource designated for one purpose for your convenience.
Then a Ferrari capable of 200mph belongs on a race track, and should not be on a road.
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Old 06-24-19, 03:58 AM
  #68  
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Originally Posted by MikeyMK View Post
Then a Ferrari capable of 200mph belongs on a race track, and should not be on a road.
No, but being a car, it shouldn't be allowed to go 15 mph on a bike path. By your logic, it should. Roads are explicitly designated for cars, with speed limits. Bike paths are designated for certain types of non-motorized vehicles, with very few motorized exceptions. A vehicle capable of car speeds on roads doesn't have any reason to be one of the exceptions.
BTW, there are plenty of cars that can go 200 mph that aren't street legal. See a lot of commuters driving Formula One cars?
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Old 06-24-19, 04:11 AM
  #69  
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Originally Posted by UniChris View Post
Ö Next, the skills of the person on the 14 mph pedal bike are far more likely to be suited to that speed than the skills of the person on the 24 mph e-motorcycle are suited to theirs; also the design of the path is more likely to be safe at that speed.....
this is my observation on the local bike path. folks that don't have the agility or ability to ride a bicycle are hopping on these new-fangled gadgets and "whee! I can fly!!!"

they are usually under the impression stop signs and other rule of the road should melt away along with their cares.

helmet? and stop the cool breeze from caressing my hair? pshaw . . .
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Old 06-24-19, 04:12 AM
  #70  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
No, but being a car, it shouldn't be allowed to go 15 mph on a bike path. By your logic, it should. Roads are explicitly designated for cars, with speed limits. Bike paths are designated for certain types of non-motorized vehicles, with very few motorized exceptions. A vehicle capable of car speeds on roads doesn't have any reason to be one of the exceptions.
BTW, there are plenty of cars that can go 200 mph that aren't street legal. See a lot of commuters driving Formula One cars?
let define the difference between motor & engine if we're going down this road.
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Old 06-24-19, 04:37 AM
  #71  
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Originally Posted by southpier View Post
let define the difference between motor & engine if we're going down this road.
Why? So we can figure out if electric cars can go on the bike path?

Would you prefer "powered"? I really don't get your point.
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Old 06-24-19, 07:37 AM
  #72  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
No, but being a car, it shouldn't be allowed to go 15 mph on a bike path. By your logic, it should. Roads are explicitly designated for cars, with speed limits. Bike paths are designated for certain types of non-motorized vehicles, with very few motorized exceptions. A vehicle capable of car speeds on roads doesn't have any reason to be one of the exceptions.
BTW, there are plenty of cars that can go 200 mph that aren't street legal. See a lot of commuters driving Formula One cars?
You're deviating from the point.

Here, an e-bike is legal on an MUP as long as it conforms to certain restrictions:

Assist cut-out at 15.5 mph
Pedals have to turn for assist
250W max assist

My bike has these restrictions in restricted mode, making it legal. The fact that i can turn this restrict mode off for use on private land is neither here nor there.
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Old 06-24-19, 07:50 AM
  #73  
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Originally Posted by southpier View Post
this is my observation on the local bike path. folks that don't have the agility or ability to ride a bicycle are hopping on these new-fangled gadgets and "whee! I can fly!!!"

they are usually under the impression stop signs and other rule of the road should melt away along with their cares.

helmet? and stop the cool breeze from caressing my hair? pshaw . . .
We've seen this with cars. People who were scared to drive in the 1980s are now driving cars that stabilise themselves and can park themselves. The modern SUV is basically a foolproof car for idiots, and the standard of driving shows it.
Put one of these incompetent drivers in an MG Midget and see if they drive the same way..

But e-bikes are nothing new, and they're slower than normal bikes here. Nothing's changed but for popularity. I don't know what's going on over there, i hear 28mph is legal.
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Old 06-24-19, 08:01 AM
  #74  
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Originally Posted by MikeyMK View Post
You're deviating from the point.

Here, an e-bike is legal on an MUP as long as it conforms to certain restrictions:

Assist cut-out at 15.5 mph
Pedals have to turn for assist
250W max assist

My bike has these restrictions in restricted mode, making it legal. The fact that i can turn this restrict mode off for use on private land is neither here nor there.
I'm not deviating from the point at all--you were arguing that saying it shouldn't be allowed is somehow irrational. I gave you a rational argument for making its use on the path illegal.

I didn't say it was illegal, I'm saying it should be. I don't get the point of having a restricted mode that can be switched off, the only reason that mode exists is to exploit a legal loophole. Again, using your logic, a motorcycle with a "restricted mode" or even a small car with one should be allowed to operate slowly on the bike path. You've lost the plot on what a bike path is for--your vehicle can operate on the street in ways that human-powered bicycles cannot, so letting it on the bike path is inconsistent with the primary reason for having bike paths in the first place.
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Old 06-24-19, 08:28 AM
  #75  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
I didn't say it was illegal, I'm saying it should be. I don't get the point of having a restricted mode that can be switched off, the only reason that mode exists is to exploit a legal loophole. Again, using your logic, a motorcycle with a "restricted mode" or even a small car with one should be allowed to operate slowly on the bike path. You've lost the plot on what a bike path is for--your vehicle can operate on the street in ways that human-powered bicycles cannot, so letting it on the bike path is inconsistent with the primary reason for having bike paths in the first place.
Yes. The problem with an analogy to cars capable of illegal speeds on roadways, is that roadways are regulated by speed limit signs with well developed tradition around enforcement, "interpretation", etc - imperfect that it is there's a culture, an enforcement budget, etc. Also speed limits vary widely between roads and zones, so until the current time actual speed governors wouldn't have been practical (though you do see people occasionally calling for them).

In contrast, bike paths have for the most part been power-limited, with those able to sustain unreasonable speeds hopefully having the experience and judgement not to do so.

Right now, the culture just isn't there for e-things without appropriate firmware speed limits to be on MUPs.

What we probably should be doing is encouraging light electric motorcycles with all the road-safety requirements and registration, and also more compact electric cars, for use on everyday roadways. Unfortunately we've now got these light motorcycles without the safety features or registration, regularly operating in our bike lanes faster than the uncongested flow of the adjacent car lanes. And misguidedly, rather than try to make delivery a living wage occupation, this risky and intimidating behavior in the race to minimize costs was just legalized.

Motors on bicycles should be limited to bringing less capable folks (or those who don't want to get sweaty) back to what an ordinary person (ordinary, not a cycling athlete) could sustain over a half dozen miles or more.

Last edited by UniChris; 06-24-19 at 06:06 PM.
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