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Americans Shouldn’t Have to Drive . . .

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Americans Shouldn’t Have to Drive . . .

Old 07-10-19, 06:51 AM
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Americans Shouldn’t Have to Drive . . .

Didn't know much of this. Thought it was a good read.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...=pocket-newtab
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Old 07-10-19, 08:26 AM
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I just saw another extremely annoying Buick commercial. They ain’t gonna make me feel bad because I ain’t got no Buick Too much wide open space in much of the US I can see the congested metro areas having better public transport but other places?
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Old 07-10-19, 09:47 AM
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Hmm. Seems to me this is a better fit for the Living Car Free forum. Should be moved or <gasp> crossposted there FWIW
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Old 07-10-19, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Leisesturm View Post
Hmm. Seems to me this is a better fit for the Living Car Free forum. Should be moved or <gasp> crossposted there FWIW
An even better fit in P&R or Foo where most of the LCF threads, which are mostly political, sociological and economic ranting/fantasizing, belong anyway.

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Old 07-10-19, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Leisesturm View Post
Hmm. Seems to me this is a better fit for the Living Car Free forum. Should be moved or <gasp> crossposted there FWIW
Not about alternatives to autos per se and crossposting is a cardinal sin (leave that to baseball players).
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Old 07-10-19, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Leisesturm View Post
Hmm. Seems to me this is a better fit for the Living Car Free forum. Should be moved or <gasp> crossposted there FWIW
I didn't read anything in the article about eliminating the car. The article describes how the overly-pro car culture has squeezed out public transit and bicycle useage.
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Old 07-10-19, 11:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Daniel4 View Post
I didn't read anything in the article about eliminating the car.
Ah, you clearly haven't done much reading in the LCF forum.
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Old 07-11-19, 12:14 AM
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It's mostly a social issue, here. From families, friends, even employers - people want you to drive, and you're in some ways going against the grain by not doing so.

That said, i'd always loved driving, and loved cars. I was the driver. I was mad on cars as a kid, and was driving as soon as the law allowed (at 17yo). I modified my cars and three years ago my little pocket rocket was the best thing i'd ever built.

In a fraction of a second i broke 13 bones. But worse still that night, my love of driving was broken. I wanted no other car (i couldn't physically get in one for a few weeks). That was near 3yrs ago now and people ask me when i'm getting a car. Why get one? The streets are so moody. And occasionally angry. Yet the cycle-ways are great. But i'm on my own with this. I'm out-voted. And partially outcast.

My world isn't gonna properly open up until i drive again. And that's not the law, it's the people. Still, i'm happy as i am. I actually feel like a correct minority. And i won't drive until i can enjoy it.
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Old 07-11-19, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by MikeyMK View Post
It's mostly a social issue, here. From families, friends, even employers - people want you to drive, and you're in some ways going against the grain by not doing so.

That said, i'd always loved driving, and loved cars. I was the driver. I was mad on cars as a kid, and was driving as soon as the law allowed (at 17yo). I modified my cars and three years ago my little pocket rocket was the best thing i'd ever built.

In a fraction of a second i broke 13 bones. But worse still that night, my love of driving was broken. I wanted no other car (i couldn't physically get in one for a few weeks). That was near 3yrs ago now and people ask me when i'm getting a car. Why get one? The streets are so moody. And occasionally angry. Yet the cycle-ways are great. But i'm on my own with this. I'm out-voted. And partially outcast.

My world isn't gonna properly open up until i drive again. And that's not the law, it's the people. Still, i'm happy as i am. I actually feel like a correct minority. And i won't drive until i can enjoy it.
Definitely LCF fodder. People never stop to think about the millions, yes millions, of people for whom driving is simply not possible. Forget the ubiquitous legal issues, consider blindness ... not the fuzzy (swidt?) legal definition, no the real deal, no getting around that. Epilepsy ... amputations or paralysis ... when you CAN'T drive, you don't. And somehow you survive, or not. But on LCF 95% of posts are by people who had no intractable physical condition that made driving impossible. So eventually they found their way back to a car. So will you. It's fine. I'm not here to judge you. This isn't LCF.
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Old 07-13-19, 06:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Leisesturm View Post
Definitely LCF fodder. People never stop to think about the millions, yes millions, of people for whom driving is simply not possible. Forget the ubiquitous legal issues, consider blindness ... not the fuzzy (swidt?) legal definition, no the real deal, no getting around that. Epilepsy ... amputations or paralysis ... when you CAN'T drive, you don't. And somehow you survive, or not. But on LCF 95% of posts are by people who had no intractable physical condition that made driving impossible. So eventually they found their way back to a car. So will you. It's fine. I'm not here to judge you. This isn't LCF.
While all the above is true, the fact, as pointed out in the OP story is that America makes it difficult NOT to drive. America puts driving and cars first. Everything else (including walking) is secondary or worse. In some areas, there flat out are no sidewalks, or public transportation. In many areas, public transportation is a pain in the butt to use.

A shift in this mentality could mean tremendous leaps forward for the entire country. Something as simple as prioritizing cycling, and making cars "go around" while bike paths go "straight through" would be a huge change. Of course something like this won't happen overnight, or even within my lifetime. It took Copenhagen over 20 years just to get to where they are today... after making the decision that the automobile was causing more issues than solving them.

Fortunately, both nations started rebuilding their infrastructure in the 1970s and 1980s.
Bicycles as transport are not culture specific. Like we’ve said, virtually every city in the world had respectable levels of bicycle traffic for decades. The modal share for bikes in Los Angeles a century ago? 20%

We know that not everyone is going to cycle everywhere all the time. The goal is simply well-designed bicycle infrastructure networks, smooth intermodality between modes of transport that include the bicycle and taking the bicycle seriously as transport once again. That's not so hard, is it
?
Check out this link discussing the myths of "why cycling won't work where I live."
Copenhagenize.com - Bicycle Urbanism by Design: Bicycle Culture Mythbusting - The Complete Guide

This isn't about living car free, it IS about living bicycle ENABLED.
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Old 07-15-19, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by genec View Post
While all the above is true, the fact, as pointed out in the OP story is that America makes it difficult NOT to drive. America puts driving and cars first. Everything else (including walking) is secondary or worse. In some areas, there flat out are no sidewalks, or public transportation. In many areas, public transportation is a pain in the butt to use.

A shift in this mentality could mean tremendous leaps forward for the entire country. Something as simple as prioritizing cycling, and making cars "go around" while bike paths go "straight through" would be a huge change. Of course something like this won't happen overnight, or even within my lifetime. It took Copenhagen over 20 years just to get to where they are today... after making the decision that the automobile was causing more issues than solving them.



Check out this link discussing the myths of "why cycling won't work where I live."
Copenhagenize.com - Bicycle Urbanism by Design: Bicycle Culture Mythbusting - The Complete Guide

This isn't about living car free, it IS about living bicycle ENABLED.
Allthough I'm on the same side, you have to keep in mind that Copenhagenize is a marketing campaign an not an analysis. It's aimed directly or indirectly at (local) governments to invest in cycling infrastructure. That's of course a good idea, but the idea that it's investment in infrastructure that leads to mass cycling is simplistic. I'm not that familiar with the Danish history but I'm sure there are cultural influences too, and there's a lot of coincidence, things happening at the same time or during the right time, and in the right sequence. Cycling is by nature such an anarchistic activity that government can only do it's part, it should not think it controls all of it.
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Old 07-15-19, 11:09 AM
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Oh GAWD, you went right to one of the very myths the site tries to debunk... "cultural influences..."

Go to the site... and really read it.

Copenhagenize.com - Bicycle Urbanism by Design: Bicycle Culture Mythbusting - The Complete Guide
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Old 07-15-19, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by genec View Post
Oh GAWD, you went right to one of the very myths the site tries to debunk... "cultural influences..."

Go to the site... and really read it.

Copenhagenize.com - Bicycle Urbanism by Design: Bicycle Culture Mythbusting - The Complete Guide
I already did and concluded it was wrong on a few 'debunks' and partly wrong on the general idea, hence that reply.
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Old 07-15-19, 08:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Leisesturm View Post
Ah, you clearly haven't done much reading in the LCF forum.
I was referring to the article, not the LCF forum. There wasn't anything in the article the OP posted suggesting anything about living car free.

So you tell me, or the rest of us, where in the article does it mention or suggest living car free?
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Old 07-15-19, 10:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Daniel4 View Post
I was referring to the article, not the LCF forum. There wasn't anything in the article the OP posted suggesting anything about living car free.

So you tell me, or the rest of us, where in the article does it mention or suggest living car free?
What is the point of writing an article like that if not to make the reader THINK about the LCF connection? OMG they're coming for my car! Could you read a lengthy article about healthy eating of natural foods complete with recipes and menu suggestions and not see the indictment of the Fast Food culture of Lower and Middle Class America? Only if explicitly stated by the author(s)? At which point they are labeled and ridiculed as crackpots by 95% of readers and the status quo continues on. I called it right, as usual, that article is wasted here. Since it does not explicity threaten your (over)use of automobiles for most of your transportation needs it is harmless entertainment.
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Old 07-16-19, 06:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Leisesturm View Post
What is the point of writing an article like that if not to make the reader THINK about the LCF connection? OMG they're coming for my car! Could you read a lengthy article about healthy eating of natural foods complete with recipes and menu suggestions and not see the indictment of the Fast Food culture of Lower and Middle Class America? Only if explicitly stated by the author(s)? At which point they are labeled and ridiculed as crackpots by 95% of readers and the status quo continues on. I called it right, as usual, that article is wasted here. Since it does not explicity threaten your (over)use of automobiles for most of your transportation needs it is harmless entertainment.
No, I don't see any LCF link in the article so it doesn't belong there. It does belong in the Advocacy and Safety threads because it states the over-emphasis of the automobile pushes aside the use of public transit and bicycles as first choices for some people.
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Old 07-16-19, 06:27 AM
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It's an article without point, unless viewed as an editorial on history. SoCal is the home of urban sprawl-- everything is miles away-- and while that may indeed be due to the actions of persons and institutions pushing for the automobile... so what? It happened 70+ years ago. Regardless of who's responsible, I live 7 miles from my favorite Chinese food place, and my wife's office is 28 miles away. There are no other options because here, there have never been any options.

And I've absolutely no desire whatsoever to live where a car isn't necessary-- I've spent my entire life in some kind of suburban environment, and could not stand living in a "proper city." As such, I guess I don't demonize cars. I love cycling-- but sometimes I need to bring home a dishwasher or 60 linear feet of cedar fencing. Or just pick up Chinese food in a reasonable amount of time.
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Old 07-16-19, 06:44 AM
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Originally Posted by DrIsotope View Post
It's an article without point, unless viewed as an editorial on history. SoCal is the home of urban sprawl-- everything is miles away-- and while that may indeed be due to the actions of persons and institutions pushing for the automobile... so what? It happened 70+ years ago. Regardless of who's responsible, I live 7 miles from my favorite Chinese food place, and my wife's office is 28 miles away. There are no other options because here, there have never been any options.

And I've absolutely no desire whatsoever to live where a car isn't necessary-- I've spent my entire life in some kind of suburban environment, and could not stand living in a "proper city." As such, I guess I don't demonize cars. I love cycling-- but sometimes I need to bring home a dishwasher or 60 linear feet of cedar fencing. Or just pick up Chinese food in a reasonable amount of time.
You are entirely missing the point.

The article isn't about living car free... it is about laws unfairly encouraging driving over over cycling.

The article is about "enabing cycling," by not eliminating the choice, by design, of the use of bicycles in a community, or by the use of prohibitive laws.

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Old 07-16-19, 07:03 AM
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Originally Posted by genec View Post
You are entirely missing the point.

The article isn't about living car free... it is about laws unfairly encouraging driving over over cycling.

The article is about "enabing cycling," by not eliminating the choice, by design, of the use of bicycles in a community, or by the use of prohibitive laws.
Considering the article is written by a law professor and he mentions laws favoring automobiles, I'd say you are correct.

The automobile has been let loose upon society and society as a whole loves the automobile. Hard to go back to before that happened.

The future of the privately owned automobile will be different than it is now, but we got a long way to go before the common man won't be able own one anymore.
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Old 07-16-19, 08:21 AM
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saw a guy getting loaded onto a stretcher this morning on the highway, when I drove up to the accident. he looked mostly OK. backed up the highway for miles. all the cars, including mine, had only one person in it, the driver. so stupid cuz we were all going the same direction. there's got to be a better way
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Old 07-16-19, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Daniel4 View Post
No, I don't see any LCF link in the article so it doesn't belong there. It does belong in the Advocacy and Safety threads because it states the over-emphasis of the automobile pushes aside the use of public transit and bicycles as first choices for some people.
Which is why I generously allowed that it might legitimately fit in both LCF and A&S. But, if it really must go in only one then it should be LCF. A&S needs to stop or at least reduce the amount of impotent handwringing about the state of car culture in America and how it negatively impacts the interests and safety of cyclists and begin to equip cyclists with real skills tools to take to the road with. An accident is, more often than not, a failure of two parties. The open and shut 100% guilt of the motorist vehicular manslaughter incidents are rare. In most interactions if the cyclist had not panicked or used evasive action of had had more situational awareness (nod to earbud users) going into the accident the outcome might have been different. Do I need to remind us that the cyclist usually has more to lose? I am not for A&S to be nothing more than a newswire, bringing an endless stream of horror stories about the many faults of drivers and American road culture.
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Old 07-16-19, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by rumrunn6 View Post
saw a guy getting loaded onto a stretcher this morning on the highway, when I drove up to the accident. he looked mostly OK. backed up the highway for miles. all the cars, including mine, had only one person in it, the driver. so stupid cuz we were all going the same direction. there's got to be a better way
Tell me about it. It's really quite insane and also unsustainable.
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Old 07-16-19, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Daniel4 View Post
I was referring to the article, not the LCF forum. There wasn't anything in the article the OP posted suggesting anything about living car free.

So you tell me, or the rest of us, where in the article does it mention or suggest living car free?
No need for any actual living car free content to fit right in on the LCF list.

There is seldom anything posted on the LCF list about the subject of living car free as most people would interpret the term "living car free." Certainly nothing like the volume of P&R ranting and fantasizing and associated P&R discussions, and non P&R blog-like posts about what a poster or two did last weekend, last month or on their last vacation.

The content of the article referenced in the OP was right up the alley for discussion on BF's LCF list as it currently exists.
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Old 07-17-19, 06:51 AM
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Originally Posted by genec View Post
You are entirely missing the point.

The article isn't about living car free... it is about laws unfairly encouraging driving over over cycling.

The article is about "enabing cycling," by not eliminating the choice, by design, of the use of bicycles in a community, or by the use of prohibitive laws.
Are there places where there are laws that actively prohibit cycling? I know the NYPD likes to aggressively ticket cyclists "for their own safety," but the only things working against cyclists here are lack of infrastructure and the realities of geography. Cars will always rule the sprawl. So unless someone is going to tear up what's already here (and has been here since the 1940s) there isn't going to be any kind of radical change. I don't think my wife is going to start commuting by bike, 56 mile roundtrip every day.
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Old 07-17-19, 07:38 AM
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Originally Posted by rumrunn6 View Post
saw a guy getting loaded onto a stretcher this morning on the highway, when I drove up to the accident. he looked mostly OK. backed up the highway for miles. all the cars, including mine, had only one person in it, the driver. so stupid cuz we were all going the same direction. there's got to be a better way
this morning, on the same highway, going approx 70 mph, some guy flies up to my rear bumper, way too close. I maintain my safe following distance from the car in front of me, but when I see an opportunity to let the maniac pass I put on my directional & move to the right, so he can harass someone else. but almost simultaneously, the clown moves right into the same lane & is on my bumper again. I have an exit in about 4 miles so I didn't move back left, I just I maintained my safe following distance from the car in front of me. in about 1/2 mile he jolts erratically to the next right hand lane & takes the exit. but then flips me off & continues w/ another hand gesture I won't mention. as I pass, I gave him a restrained & blank look. I guess he thought I had intentionally moved right to block him cuz he moved right as well? in my 20s, getting flipped off was a bit of a trigger for me. 40 years later, I'm well past an aggravated reaction to a gesture that is not actually threatening to me

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