mr_bill

Besides, it's a DZSW!

-mr. bill

livedarklions

I took a closer look at that side path, and it's really interesting--there's some angling at the intersections apparently to put you in a better position to deal with the right hook issue. It's not quite like anything I see around here--when a path is placed like that one next to the road but many feet over, and doesn't angle you into the corner like that, I feel much less safe riding through the intersection than if I was into the lane on the road.

bbbean 

Gosh, thanks for sharing. We're all newbies and are so grateful a wizened old sage like you would take the time to enlighten us. God knows none of us have any experience or data to base our decisions on.

FWIW - I'm considering that one "myth" that has yet to be dispelled

genec

Nice generalization. See any parked cars in the picture I posted? No. So that condition and rule doesn't apply everywhere.

Maybe in a downtown core (which I have mentioned as NOT a good place to ride sidewalks)... but this condition does not exist everywhere. So why act like it does?

genec

Sidepath on one side, sidewalks on the other.

Hey, got news for you... driveways are dangerous when you ride in the street too. Don't think taking a lane makes YOU more visible to drivers... they are not looking for you.

Sure, you might see a driver pulling out a touch better... if you detect the sound or exhaust while you also watch your mirror.

genec

Yeah... Apparently there are quite a few folks here that believe the world everywhere looks like their neighborhood.

Oulo Finland has great bikepaths. Davis California has a decent path network.

Oregon has totally different rules for motorists, Seattle has an adult helmet law.

Yeah... the same dogmatic rules DO NOT APPLY everywhere. Period.

livedarklions

I got that--the paths look like something I'd ride on, the sidewalks definitely not. And I am absolutely safer from driveways in the streets as I can say from about 50 years of riding experience because I have more reaction time before the miscreant driver could actually hit me. It's usually not a I need to see them in a mirror situation, it's the backing out without looking right towards my side situation--I need time to swerve out of the way. Plus, there are frequently shrubs and the like on the side of driveways that end at the sidewalk.

I'm generally cruising around at 20+ mph, so sidewalks would generally be a really poor default choice for me. I could ride like that happily on that side path. Really very different.

livedarklions

I probably shouldn't ask, but what's that?

Miele Man

Because it DOES EXIST in a LOT of areas where people do ride their bicycles on the sidewalks. Some bicyclists are idiots and will ride heir bicycles at speed on sidewalks where here are pedestrians or where pedestrians are liable to exit a building. the bicyclist zooming along the sidewalk can NOT see thos people! There have been instances where a bicyclist riding on the sidewalk has struck and KILLED a pedestrian. There have been such cases in Toronto Canada where a bicyclist riding their bicycle on a sidewalk struck and killed someone.

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/201...nd_killed.html

In British Columbia Canada.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...rticle1315137/

Further reading.

https://nowtoronto.com/news/make-bik...n-the-suburbs/

Quote from that article: "Cycling on sidewalks can be less safe than riding on the road. Outside of the downtown, where getting doored is the biggest danger, sidewalk riding is the top cause of collisions with cars.

To understand why riding on sidewalks in the suburbs isn't as safe as it feels, you have to dig a bit deeper.

True, you won't get sideswiped or pushed into the curb by car traffic. So far so good – until you meet cross-traffic.

This happens not just at intersections, but at people's private driveways, shopping malls and industrial spaces. There, bike riders meet turning vehicles, and the risk of collision is high because drivers are more likely to miss cyclists scooting along the sidewalk than those on the road.

Cyclists are fast – faster than pedestrians – and thus surprise drivers by "appearing out of nowhere." Drivers turning at intersections are often too busy sorting out whether it's safe to turn to catch cyclists whizzing into the road from the sidewalk.

In fact, cycling on the sidewalk is a contributing factor in 30 per cent of car-bike collisions in Toronto, when cyclists cross a roadway or motorists exit a laneway or driveway.

Toronto's own collision statistics show that the danger is higher at intersections, where nearly twice as many collisions occur (52.8 per cent) than in the stretches between intersections (31.9 per cent). On the other hand, though, the report notes that "collisions in which cyclists were riding on the roadway tended to result in slightly more severe injuries than those in which the cyclists were riding on the sidewalk or within the crosswalk."

Cheers

Miele Man

Sorry but that is a crock of El Toro Poo Poo! Taking the lane or riding away from the edge of the road most certainly makes you more visible to automobile drivers than does riding on a sidewalk where drivers are NOT LOOKING. At intersections drivers most often GLANCE at a sidewalk to see if anyone is approaching at WALKING speed. They are not looking for a faster moving bicyclist. To make it even worse, if a driver does see a bicyclist riding on the sidewalk and that bicyclist is approaching the intersect the BICYCLE IS OFTEN INVISIBLE due to its narrow frontal area and thus the driver thinks what he/she sees is a pedestrian and thus often turns or pulls out in front of that bicyclist. Even in an area where there are no obstructions between the sidewalk and the traffic lane the drivers are concentrating on what's in front of them on the road NOT what's on the sidewalk. To many drivers bicyclists who ride on the sidewalk and then onto the road simply appear to come out of nowhere!

Cheers

Bandera

I'm still sticking with:

Sidewalks are for pedestrians, bicycles being vehicles belong in the roadway or on a MUP.

-Bandera

genec

And the DOGMA continues unabated. Well thanks folks for proving the point. Keep riding.

livedarklions

Am I wrong, or do the vast majority of these sidewalk riding guys come from Florida?

I think there was someone from Texas as well, but I think the general rule in the US is that grownups don't do much sidewalk riding.

I believe everyone who has ever studied this has shown you're statistically more likely to get hit riding on the sidewalk.

jon c. 

Must be down south. Up here in the panhandle we scarcely have sidewalks.

KraneXL

Sounds like not much has changed in that city since I used to visit there as a kid.

Chris0516

Spare me your Aristotle-like thinking. Riding on the sidewalk is dangerous. As is, riding on the road.

But, Riding on the sidewalk while crossing a business entrance/exit. Is a definite invitation to a pine box and six feet under. WHY, Because if a vehicle suddenly approaches. You only have the width of the sidewalk. To get out of the way. On the road, a travel lane can be as much as, three times the width of the sidewalk. So you have a lot more room to avoid a collision. Without even leaving the travel lane.

genec

Go back to the opening post and read about my lifelong cycling experience, then actually understand where I "came from."

genec

He found the one car, parked off the road, near a sidepath, with a door open... thus a Door Zone Side Walk.

Of course since one is not busy staring at a mirror, it is quite easy to observe the car and door up ahead.

Of course if one were riding on the street, and encountered a Door Zone, and was flung out into the car or bus behind you... you'd be dead. In a DZSW you get flung onto an empty sidewalk or grass area.

Thanks mr bill for showing the other advantage of encountering the errant motorist on a sidepath vice busy street.

genec

Take your poo poo right here... where would YOU ride.



https://www.google.com/maps/@28.0128...4!8i8192?hl=en

genec

Oh, so being a few feet further out will help you when "a vehicle suddenly approaches..." and you swerve out of the way right into that motorist passing you on the left... Yeah! So much safer!

Bottom line, cycling can be dangerous anywhere you are on two wheels. I fall about every time I go on rough off road trails. Not a car in sight. Ohhhh the danger. I have fallen on well built bike paths... hit a bunch of small, dark jewelry beads... they were like ball bearings. Any cyclist on the road has to maintain 360 degree situational awareness... what's happening in front of you, at the next intersection, at the left oncoming lane, the parked car next to you, and in front of you... any any approaching traffic behind you, in your lane AND the lane next to that lane.

HOWEVER... ride on a sidepath, and all the action is in front of you... until you come to an intersection... as you approach, you look around. Of course if there is a driveway every 100 feet, well you may as well be on the road. But if you have a mile or more of sidepath... that's a mile of not staring at a mirror. Even a 1/4 mile of not watching for overtaking traffic is relaxing.

I have done plenty of long trips on long isolated country roads (of course no sidepath, and often little shoulder) and the indication of approaching traffic was being able to hear those tires from a long way back... but between those rare vehicle approaches... there were wonderful long gaps of stress free cycling. Cycling that is like heaven. You just glide along care free... seriously "Just Riding Along." I get small similar JRA "shots" when riding on good paths and some local, available sidepaths. JRA. (sorry, city folks.)

Being vehicular, on the typical non-country road, requires constant focus and vigilance. It is a totally different feeling. Sure, you get good, you stay alert, and you live.
But it isn't JRA!

Truth be told, I'll take the long, quiet, isolated, country journey anytime. (spinning for hours, up and down hill and dale ) But you gotta get to the country to have such a ride.

livedarklions

So according to that, you only started riding sidewalks in Florida. So?

I have news for you, I've been a bike commuter in several states including the California Bay Area, my riding has been in several regions of the country. Nowhere I've been is it normal for adults to do much riding on sidewalks. My experience riding is at least as extensive as yours, and I think most of the assertions you're making are really quite ridiculous. See below.

livedarklions

You keep lumping in paths with sidewalks, which is absurd, and is basically a strawman argument. I said above I wouldn't ride that sidewalk on a bet, and I would definitely be safer riding on that street. The path on the other side looks wonderful, and I would take that over the street, but that's a totally different calculation.

Here's another view of that sidewalk: https://www.google.com/maps/@28.0189...C8T-12J0uQ!2e0

If you ride on that sidewalk and feel safer than on the street, I don't think much of your ability to calculate probabilities.

livedarklions

That's a side path, not just a sidewalk. You're arguing a strawman. No one here is arguing against path riding. At this point, you're just trolling.

Miele Man

That's an excellent road to ride on. It looks to me that one could ride on that road or on the side path. I would have no problem riding on that road. I OFTEN ride roads around here that do NOT have such a side path and where the speeds are also 55mph. Then again it's a side path way out in the country and not a sidewalk with pedestrians.

I agree that Generac is trolling now.

Cheers

mr_bill

That's a sidewalk, not a sidepath. Florida has minimum requirements for bicycle paths - that doesn't meet them, not even close.

(At least the sidewalk is not in the door zone.)

-mr. bill