Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Advocacy & Safety
Reload this Page >

I almost got doored - yet most drivers blame me. How do we improve car culture?

Notices
Advocacy & Safety Cyclists should expect and demand safe accommodation on every public road, just as do all other users. Discuss your bicycle advocacy and safety concerns here.

I almost got doored - yet most drivers blame me. How do we improve car culture?

Old 09-22-19, 08:28 AM
  #126  
I-Like-To-Bike
Been Around Awhile
 
I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 27,871

Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked 147 Times in 97 Posts
Originally Posted by genec View Post
At one point, the proposed idea of ...

Try not to be such a naysayer of things could well come to be, within even your lifetime.
Fan boys of 21st Century Technology! can make all sorts of proposals and "ideas" of things [that] could well come to be. Some just might too, because anything might happen at some unspecified future date, eh?

Some ideas "might" sound great to other true believer/Yesayers of Technology!, especially if the so-called proposal/idea is so vague and undefined that it might be proposing as well as promising just about anything. Such proposals may sound just dandy to those people for whom terms such as costs, value added, and lack of demand do not have much appeal.

Then again there may be some "ideas" that are tossed out just as troll bait in order to insult and cast aspersions at skeptics of of half-baked "ideas."
I-Like-To-Bike is offline  
Old 09-22-19, 04:37 PM
  #127  
genec
genec
 
genec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 26,382

Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2

Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6846 Post(s)
Liked 178 Times in 124 Posts
Originally Posted by Leisesturm View Post
While I can appreciate the sentiment, in this particular case ILTB is on the rational side of an argument that technology will be brought to bear on the fraught issue of bike lane doorings by careless motorists. I am hard put to calculate the number of fatal doorings in any given year, but I do know that around 818 cyclists were killed in collisions with motor vehicles last year. Surely the number of fatal doorings is significantly less than that? And that in itself is significant because somewhere around 6,000 pedestrians were killed by motor vehicles last year and there is still no effective technological solution for that. Car makers will be occupied with the problem of saving lives lost due to the mass and speed of cars themselves for decades. They will never get around to addressing niche peeves like door zone incidents which are rarely fatal, in the lifetime of someone participating in this forum now. As long as alternatives exist to becoming a dooring victim: speed modulation, vigilance, door-zone avoidance even ... as long as a cheaper alternative to technology exists, that lower bar will be the one adopted. Cyclists stand a better chance of being written out of future Motor Vehicle Codes entirely than they stand to gain from advances in motor vehicle technology entirely on their behalf. Advocacy can have unintended consequences.
And yet all it took was a few child deaths a year to mandate a change in the electric window switch...

Over the last two decades, at least 70 children have been killed in power-window accidents, according to data tracked by Kids and Cars. Thirty-six of those fatalities have occurred since 1990. A 1997 study by the National Center for Statistics and Analysis estimated that 500 people annually are treated in hospital emergency rooms for injuries related to power windows.

Dangerous rocker and toggle power window switches have now been eliminated. All new vehicles manufactured on or after October 1, 2008 must have the safer ‘pull up to close/push down to open’ switches.
https://www.kidsandcars.org/wp-conte...Fact-Sheet.pdf
genec is offline  
Old 09-22-19, 04:54 PM
  #128  
I-Like-To-Bike
Been Around Awhile
 
I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 27,871

Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked 147 Times in 97 Posts
Originally Posted by genec View Post
And yet all it took was a few child deaths a year to mandate a change in the electric window switch...
Right and there are smartphones and men landed on the moon, therefore the mystery "idea" that "might" do some good should be implemented right away whatever it costs because ... well just because we dare not naysay any alleged "idea" that invokes a hint of 21st century technology.
I-Like-To-Bike is offline  
Old 09-22-19, 06:47 PM
  #129  
Rollfast
What happened?
 
Rollfast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Around here somewhere
Posts: 7,754

Bikes: 3 Rollfasts, 3 Schwinns, a Shelby and a Higgins Flightliner in a pear tree!

Mentioned: 51 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1683 Post(s)
Liked 150 Times in 134 Posts
Car culture? Can I get a strawberry banana Civic?
__________________

Our streets are paved with onions...the drivers aren't tarping
Rollfast is offline  
Old 09-22-19, 09:09 PM
  #130  
KraneXL
 
KraneXL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: La-la Land, CA
Posts: 3,480

Bikes: Cannondale Quick SL1 Bike - 2014

Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3181 Post(s)
Liked 148 Times in 120 Posts
Originally Posted by Leisesturm View Post
While I can appreciate the sentiment, in this particular case ILTB is on the rational side of an argument that technology will be brought to bear on the fraught issue of bike lane doorings by careless motorists. I am hard put to calculate the number of fatal doorings in any given year, but I do know that around 818 cyclists were killed in collisions with motor vehicles last year. Surely the number of fatal doorings is significantly less than that? And that in itself is significant because somewhere around 6,000 pedestrians were killed by motor vehicles last year and there is still no effective technological solution for that. Car makers will be occupied with the problem of saving lives lost due to the mass and speed of cars themselves for decades. They will never get around to addressing niche peeves like door zone incidents which are rarely fatal, in the lifetime of someone participating in this forum now. As long as alternatives exist to becoming a dooring victim: speed modulation, vigilance, door-zone avoidance even ... as long as a cheaper alternative to technology exists, that lower bar will be the one adopted. Cyclists stand a better chance of being written out of future Motor Vehicle Codes entirely than they stand to gain from advances in motor vehicle technology entirely on their behalf. Advocacy can have unintended consequences.
I don't think you've been keeping up with technology. Cars already have sensors that detect pedestrian when backing (and a few forward) and stop the car to avoid any injury. Its not necessarily focused on cyclist exclusively.

Also, nobody has addressed the sometimes not infrequent vehicle that slows down and comes to a stops in the lane of travel (see taxis) and then all the doors fling open to let out passengers. How do you anticipate a door zone in that instance.
KraneXL is offline  
Old 09-23-19, 05:27 AM
  #131  
livedarklions
Cyclesomatic
 
livedarklions's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 4,739

Bikes: Trek FX 3; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Motobecane Fantom CX; Giant OCR A1

Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2406 Post(s)
Liked 781 Times in 487 Posts
I can't get past the OP's ridiculous behavior in the video. He's taking a dog on a leash into a bike lane on a street and riding his ebike fairly fast. So basically, he's limited his own ability to adapt his path around any obstacle in the bike lane without causing the leashed dog to go into the traffic lane. The driver didn't "fling" the door open, caught the mistake before any harm was actually done, and then the OP proceeds to throw a tantrum.

I think dooring is probably the most exaggerated hazard of riding, and I find in urban riding I am generally able to ride a bit further to the left when going fast to avoid the hazard, and if I'm going slow, there's generally plenty of notice that the door is opening.

Bike lanes are for biking, not dog walking. I see no reason for cycling advocates to ignore that just because the dog walker is on a bike.
livedarklions is offline  
Likes For livedarklions:
Old 09-23-19, 08:36 AM
  #132  
njkayaker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 11,197
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1796 Post(s)
Liked 35 Times in 27 Posts
Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
Perhaps you should stop tossing out insults and clarify what the heck are you talking about if your allegedly good idea incorporating some vaguely referenced blind spot technology system doesn't include any means of preventing careless/thoughtless vehicle occupants from opening doors in the immediate path of bicyclists approaching in the door zone?
I can't make you think. That's your problem, If you think something isn't clear, then ask for a clarification. Don't keep making up straw man arguments.

Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
Posters on BF come up with all sorts of "ideas" about how current technology can provide alleged high tech solutions to whatever problem is being discussed. Your "idea" is just one of them.
No doubt posters here appreciate you pissing in their cheerios.

The world has a serious lack of sanctimony and it's clearly a help for you to keep replenishing it.

Last edited by njkayaker; 09-23-19 at 08:41 AM.
njkayaker is offline  
Old 09-23-19, 08:51 AM
  #133  
njkayaker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 11,197
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1796 Post(s)
Liked 35 Times in 27 Posts
Originally Posted by Leisesturm View Post
While I can appreciate the sentiment, in this particular case ILTB is on the rational side of an argument that technology will be brought to bear on the fraught issue of bike lane doorings by careless motorists. I am hard put to calculate the number of fatal doorings in any given year, but I do know that around 818 cyclists were killed in collisions with motor vehicles last year. Surely the number of fatal doorings is significantly less than that?
So, what if it's less? Even more people die of heart attacks per year than the tiny 818.

If something can be fixed with not much effort, why would you not want to use it?

What you and ILTB keep missing is that the technology to reduce doorings already exists in many vehicles and will become even more common.

Last edited by njkayaker; 09-23-19 at 10:07 AM.
njkayaker is offline  
Old 09-23-19, 09:11 AM
  #134  
KraneXL
 
KraneXL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: La-la Land, CA
Posts: 3,480

Bikes: Cannondale Quick SL1 Bike - 2014

Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3181 Post(s)
Liked 148 Times in 120 Posts
New Audi A8 locks doors if it detects a cyclist

Cyclists afraid of being struck by an opening car door can breathe a little easier – at least if they are passing a parked Audi A8.

The new version of Audi’s large luxury car, due to be released in Australia mid next year, includes technology specifically designed to save passing cyclists from injury or possible death from so-called “dooring” incidents.

While a number of new Audis such as the smaller A4 sedan and Q7 SUV have included warning lights alerting the car’s occupant is about to open a door onto an oncoming bicycle (or any other traffic), the A8 goes a step further by actually preventing it happening.

The A8 has a number of ultrasonic radar sensors on its front and rear bumpers that give it a medium range view of the surrounding world and can alert the driver when it is safe to change lanes or, in the future, allow for semi-autonomous driving.

For the so-called exit warning, the rear sensors can “see” traffic including bicycles approaching from the rear for up to three minutes after the engine has been turned off.

As with the A4 and Q7, the driver (or anyone else seated next to a door) will see red lights flashing on the door trim if they grab the door handle when a bicycle is approaching from behind.

If they ignore the visual warning and continue to open the door it simply locks, and the door physically cannot be opened until the cyclist, car or school bus has breezed past.

Date: 20/10/2017
KraneXL is offline  
Old 09-23-19, 10:16 AM
  #135  
njkayaker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 11,197
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1796 Post(s)
Liked 35 Times in 27 Posts
Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
I think dooring is probably the most exaggerated hazard of riding, and I find in urban riding I am generally able to ride a bit further to the left when going fast to avoid the hazard, and if I'm going slow, there's generally plenty of notice that the door is opening.
"Exaggerated" by whom?

It's certainly a risk (if not the largest one) and it might be larger in some places than others.

https://gothamist.com/news/what-is-n...ically-nothing
njkayaker is offline  
Old 09-23-19, 10:30 AM
  #136  
I-Like-To-Bike
Been Around Awhile
 
I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 27,871

Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked 147 Times in 97 Posts
Originally Posted by KraneXL View Post
The new version of Audi’s large luxury car, due to be released in Australia mid next year, includes technology specifically designed to save passing cyclists from injury or possible death from so-called “dooring” incidents.

While a number of new Audis such as the smaller A4 sedan and Q7 SUV have included warning lights alerting the car’s occupant is about to open a door onto an oncoming bicycle (or any other traffic), the A8 goes a step further by actually preventing it happening.

The A8 has a number of ultrasonic radar sensors on its front and rear bumpers that give it a medium range view of the surrounding world and can alert the driver when it is safe to change lanes or, in the future, allow for semi-autonomous driving.

For the so-called exit warning, the rear sensors can “see” traffic including bicycles approaching from the rear for up to three minutes after the engine has been turned off.

As with the A4 and Q7, the driver (or anyone else seated next to a door) will see red lights flashing on the door trim if they grab the door handle when a bicycle is approaching from behind.

If they ignore the visual warning and continue to open the door it simply locks, and the door physically cannot be opened until the cyclist, car or school bus has breezed past.

Date: 20/10/2017
Your unnamed source is presumably dated almost 2 years ago, any more recent info on the status of the fielding of this innovation? Has its implementation filtered down into any/many more common model besides the super expensiveAudi flagship? Does it work as advertised? Any problems, such as preventing occupants from safely exiting parallel parked cars when any vehicle is nearby or approaching in an adjacent traffic lane? [Edit: probably not since it doesn't lock the doors at all.]
Can the driver/owner can turn off this door restraint system?

You omitted the part in my Googled source https://www.drive.com.au/motor-news/...ch-115989.html that said back in 2017 -
According to Audi system expert Georg Maier: “The first thing is there is a warning. It’s based on the sensors in the rear. The second thing is it delays the release of the door, so whenever there is traffic from the rear it delays door opening by 0.8 seconds.”

Last edited by I-Like-To-Bike; 09-23-19 at 11:04 AM. Reason: Added more info from 2017 on this proposed Audi system
I-Like-To-Bike is offline  
Old 09-23-19, 10:36 AM
  #137  
Leisesturm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 4,070
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1345 Post(s)
Liked 54 Times in 45 Posts
Originally Posted by genec View Post
And yet all it took was a few child deaths a year to mandate a change in the electric window switch...
You are not seriously going to try and equate the sentiment for a 36 year old, lycra clad, potty mouthed, roadie cyclist the sentiment for a six year old towhead that is (was) the light of their parents lives?! No, you cannot possibly be thinking this through. In another post the redesign of the window switches was called "simple", and I suspect it was. Trivial = Doable. No added cost on the manufacture side but the increase in sales from the aww shucks = priceless. Blind spot monitoring 'may' also detect cyclists in the door zone but that will not be its primary purpose.
Leisesturm is offline  
Old 09-23-19, 10:41 AM
  #138  
Leisesturm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 4,070
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1345 Post(s)
Liked 54 Times in 45 Posts
Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
What you and ILTB keep missing is that the technology to reduce doorings already exists in many vehicles and will become even more common.
I know a fair amount of car owners and only one has one capable of blind spot monitoring. Don't hold your breath for widespread adoption of this already existing technology. Especially do not hold your breath for any regulation requiring this already existing technology to be implemented beyond present levels.
Leisesturm is offline  
Old 09-23-19, 11:19 AM
  #139  
dkatz1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 63
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Liked 10 Times in 6 Posts
The time I came closest to getting doored, I shouted at the criminal who tried to kill me, something like "watch what the #!#%^! you're doing", and she told me that I should be on the sidewalk. I don't know what it's like elsewhere, but I'm somewhat sure that in Massachusetts, Boston area that if you do get hit by a door, legally the car's drive is at fault. Evern if you were being reckless (which I wasn't).
The other time I nearly got hit (both of these were at east ten or more years ago) I also yelled at the driver. And in a few minutes was in the same place as he was. And he said he rides bikes, and got hit by a car and went over the hood (or something, I forget what) and was seriously injured.
This didn't make me feel any better about it. He should know better than the average shmuck is how I saw it.
dkatz1 is offline  
Old 09-23-19, 11:22 AM
  #140  
dkatz1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 63
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Liked 10 Times in 6 Posts
Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
"Exaggerated" by whom?

It's certainly a risk (if not the largest one) and it might be larger in some places than others.

https://gothamist.com/news/what-is-n...ically-nothing
In Boston/Cambridge, etc, more than one cyclist has been killed by a door opening: like the woman in central square, Cambridge, hit by a door, knocked down into a traffic and run over by a bus. Just that ONCE is enough for me to take it serioulsy.
dkatz1 is offline  
Old 09-23-19, 11:24 AM
  #141  
Rollfast
What happened?
 
Rollfast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Around here somewhere
Posts: 7,754

Bikes: 3 Rollfasts, 3 Schwinns, a Shelby and a Higgins Flightliner in a pear tree!

Mentioned: 51 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1683 Post(s)
Liked 150 Times in 134 Posts
This forum is about safety promotion, please tone down the language/rhetoric.
__________________

Our streets are paved with onions...the drivers aren't tarping
Rollfast is offline  
Old 09-23-19, 11:30 AM
  #142  
cs1
Senior Member
 
cs1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Clev Oh
Posts: 6,992

Bikes: Specialized, Schwinn

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 176 Post(s)
Liked 6 Times in 6 Posts
Originally Posted by howardv View Post
How do we change people's mentality?
You don't. The only thing you can change is you. I've been a bicyclist and motorcyclist since 1976, I know I'm old. With advent of cellular technology driver distraction is at an all time high. And it isn't a good high either. You just need to pay more attention and assume the other folks are not paying any attention at all. Better safe than dead.
cs1 is offline  
Old 09-23-19, 11:46 AM
  #143  
njkayaker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 11,197
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1796 Post(s)
Liked 35 Times in 27 Posts
Originally Posted by Leisesturm View Post
I know a fair amount of car owners and only one has one capable of blind spot monitoring. Don't hold your breath for widespread adoption of this already existing technology. Especially do not hold your breath for any regulation requiring this already existing technology to be implemented beyond present levels.
* Air bags were introduced in high end cars. Now, they are standard.
* ABS brakes were introduced in high end cars. Now, they are standard.
* Rear view cameras were introduced in high end cars. Now, are standard.

There's no reason not to expect the same thing will happen with blind spot detection.

The blind spot detection is becoming more common every year.

The "not widespread" argument is a misdirection anyway.

If you have blind spot detection, why wouldn't you want it to also work for reducing dooring?

Last edited by njkayaker; 09-23-19 at 11:55 AM.
njkayaker is offline  
Old 09-23-19, 11:50 AM
  #144  
njkayaker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 11,197
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1796 Post(s)
Liked 35 Times in 27 Posts
Originally Posted by dkatz1 View Post
In Boston/Cambridge, etc, more than one cyclist has been killed by a door opening: like the woman in central square, Cambridge, hit by a door, knocked down into a traffic and run over by a bus. Just that ONCE is enough for me to take it seriously.
It injures people too.
njkayaker is offline  
Old 09-23-19, 11:58 AM
  #145  
Larry Lem 1
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 7
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
There is a law.

CVC 22517.

No person shall open the door of a vehicle on the side available to moving traffic unless it is reasonably safe to do so and can be done without interfering with the movement of such traffic, nor shall any person leave a door open on the side of a vehicle available to moving traffic for a period of time longer than necessary to load or unload passengers.
Larry Lem 1 is offline  
Old 09-23-19, 12:05 PM
  #146  
reburns
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Saratoga, CA
Posts: 279

Bikes: 2005 Trek T2000; 2005 Co-motion Speedster Co-pilot; various non-tandem road and mountain bikes

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 53 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
The only times I’ve been hurt riding my road bike are the times I’ve been overly concerned with inconveniencing drivers. The worst was riding through our local village on the 2 lane 25 mph Main Street with parked cars on both sides. My direction was slightly uphill so I was only able to go about 10 mph. Not wanting to cause drivers to have to wait to pass, I moved into the door zone. Mom with arms full of her daughter’s school books kicked open her door just as I was next to her and hit my handlebar, throwing me into the traffic lane. Fortunately the car behind me stopped in time and I only ended up with a broken collar bone and $1K damage to my bike.

I no longer EVER ride in the door zone no matter what. I’ve petitioned our town to include sharrows and signage telling drivers that cyclists may use the full lane.
reburns is offline  
Old 09-23-19, 12:11 PM
  #147  
Maitreya
Member
 
Maitreya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Posts: 25
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I am amazed that they have cars parking that way. Of course that will lead to accidents. Drivers do not look for bicyclists!
Maitreya is offline  
Old 09-23-19, 12:23 PM
  #148  
ridey b
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 17
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 1 Post
Dont be "right" and hurt

When approaching a car I check to see if the driver is in or out.
Not safe to rely on the driver to remember to check before opening.
I'm a rider who has on occasion opening before looking
ridey b is offline  
Old 09-23-19, 12:33 PM
  #149  
JWalters
Newbie
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 2
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by howardv View Post
How do we change people's mentality?
This is a fools position. Change YOUR mentality... IT IS THE ONLY ONE YOU CONTROL...at least you have a chance of succeeding in that endeavor.
JWalters is offline  
Old 09-23-19, 12:34 PM
  #150  
jackmc
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 19

Bikes: Mid 80's Bianchi, Part Campy Part Suntour Superbe Pro

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Well here in NJ it appears that there are no rules as to which side you ride on including sidewalks. I'm surprised there aren't more accidents, riding on the road is dangerous enough while obeying the right of way and I expect it will only get worse.
jackmc is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.