I almost got doored - yet most drivers blame me. How do we improve car culture?
09-22-19, 08:28 AM
#126
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Originally Posted by genec
At one point, the proposed idea of ...
Try not to be such a naysayer of things could well come to be, within even your lifetime.
Try not to be such a naysayer of things could well come to be, within even your lifetime.
Some ideas "might" sound great to other true believer/Yesayers of Technology!, especially if the so-called proposal/idea is so vague and undefined that it might be proposing as well as promising just about anything. Such proposals may sound just dandy to those people for whom terms such as costs, value added, and lack of demand do not have much appeal.
Then again there may be some "ideas" that are tossed out just as troll bait in order to insult and cast aspersions at skeptics of of half-baked "ideas."
09-22-19, 04:37 PM
#127
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Originally Posted by Leisesturm
While I can appreciate the sentiment, in this particular case ILTB is on the rational side of an argument that technology will be brought to bear on the fraught issue of bike lane doorings by careless motorists. I am hard put to calculate the number of fatal doorings in any given year, but I do know that around 818 cyclists were killed in collisions with motor vehicles last year. Surely the number of fatal doorings is significantly less than that? And that in itself is significant because somewhere around 6,000 pedestrians were killed by motor vehicles last year and there is still no effective technological solution for that. Car makers will be occupied with the problem of saving lives lost due to the mass and speed of cars themselves for decades. They will never get around to addressing niche peeves like door zone incidents which are rarely fatal, in the lifetime of someone participating in this forum now. As long as alternatives exist to becoming a dooring victim: speed modulation, vigilance, door-zone avoidance even ... as long as a cheaper alternative to technology exists, that lower bar will be the one adopted. Cyclists stand a better chance of being written out of future Motor Vehicle Codes entirely than they stand to gain from advances in motor vehicle technology entirely on their behalf. Advocacy can have unintended consequences.
Over the last two decades, at least 70 children have been killed in power-window accidents, according to data tracked by Kids and Cars. Thirty-six of those fatalities have occurred since 1990. A 1997 study by the National Center for Statistics and Analysis estimated that 500 people annually are treated in hospital emergency rooms for injuries related to power windows.
Dangerous rocker and toggle power window switches have now been eliminated. All new vehicles manufactured on or after October 1, 2008 must have the safer ‘pull up to close/push down to open’ switches.
Dangerous rocker and toggle power window switches have now been eliminated. All new vehicles manufactured on or after October 1, 2008 must have the safer ‘pull up to close/push down to open’ switches.
09-22-19, 04:54 PM
#128
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Originally Posted by genec
And yet all it took was a few child deaths a year to mandate a change in the electric window switch...
09-22-19, 06:47 PM
#129
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Car culture? Can I get a strawberry banana Civic? 
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09-22-19, 09:09 PM
#130
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Originally Posted by Leisesturm
While I can appreciate the sentiment, in this particular case ILTB is on the rational side of an argument that technology will be brought to bear on the fraught issue of bike lane doorings by careless motorists. I am hard put to calculate the number of fatal doorings in any given year, but I do know that around 818 cyclists were killed in collisions with motor vehicles last year. Surely the number of fatal doorings is significantly less than that? And that in itself is significant because somewhere around 6,000 pedestrians were killed by motor vehicles last year and there is still no effective technological solution for that. Car makers will be occupied with the problem of saving lives lost due to the mass and speed of cars themselves for decades. They will never get around to addressing niche peeves like door zone incidents which are rarely fatal, in the lifetime of someone participating in this forum now. As long as alternatives exist to becoming a dooring victim: speed modulation, vigilance, door-zone avoidance even ... as long as a cheaper alternative to technology exists, that lower bar will be the one adopted. Cyclists stand a better chance of being written out of future Motor Vehicle Codes entirely than they stand to gain from advances in motor vehicle technology entirely on their behalf. Advocacy can have unintended consequences.
Also, nobody has addressed the sometimes not infrequent vehicle that slows down and comes to a stops in the lane of travel (see taxis) and then all the doors fling open to let out passengers. How do you anticipate a door zone in that instance.
09-23-19, 05:27 AM
#131
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I can't get past the OP's ridiculous behavior in the video. He's taking a dog on a leash into a bike lane on a street and riding his ebike fairly fast. So basically, he's limited his own ability to adapt his path around any obstacle in the bike lane without causing the leashed dog to go into the traffic lane. The driver didn't "fling" the door open, caught the mistake before any harm was actually done, and then the OP proceeds to throw a tantrum.
I think dooring is probably the most exaggerated hazard of riding, and I find in urban riding I am generally able to ride a bit further to the left when going fast to avoid the hazard, and if I'm going slow, there's generally plenty of notice that the door is opening.
Bike lanes are for biking, not dog walking. I see no reason for cycling advocates to ignore that just because the dog walker is on a bike.
I think dooring is probably the most exaggerated hazard of riding, and I find in urban riding I am generally able to ride a bit further to the left when going fast to avoid the hazard, and if I'm going slow, there's generally plenty of notice that the door is opening.
Bike lanes are for biking, not dog walking. I see no reason for cycling advocates to ignore that just because the dog walker is on a bike.
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09-23-19, 08:36 AM
#132
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
Perhaps you should stop tossing out insults and clarify what the heck are you talking about if your allegedly good idea incorporating some vaguely referenced blind spot technology system doesn't include any means of preventing careless/thoughtless vehicle occupants from opening doors in the immediate path of bicyclists approaching in the door zone?
Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
Posters on BF come up with all sorts of "ideas" about how current technology can provide alleged high tech solutions to whatever problem is being discussed. Your "idea" is just one of them.
The world has a serious lack of sanctimony and it's clearly a help for you to keep replenishing it.
Last edited by njkayaker; 09-23-19 at 08:41 AM.
09-23-19, 08:51 AM
#133
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Originally Posted by Leisesturm
While I can appreciate the sentiment, in this particular case ILTB is on the rational side of an argument that technology will be brought to bear on the fraught issue of bike lane doorings by careless motorists. I am hard put to calculate the number of fatal doorings in any given year, but I do know that around 818 cyclists were killed in collisions with motor vehicles last year. Surely the number of fatal doorings is significantly less than that?
If something can be fixed with not much effort, why would you not want to use it?
What you and ILTB keep missing is that the technology to reduce doorings already exists in many vehicles and will become even more common.
Last edited by njkayaker; 09-23-19 at 10:07 AM.
09-23-19, 09:11 AM
#134
☢
New Audi A8 locks doors if it detects a cyclist
Cyclists afraid of being struck by an opening car door can breathe a little easier – at least if they are passing a parked Audi A8.
The new version of Audi’s large luxury car, due to be released in Australia mid next year, includes technology specifically designed to save passing cyclists from injury or possible death from so-called “dooring” incidents.
While a number of new Audis such as the smaller A4 sedan and Q7 SUV have included warning lights alerting the car’s occupant is about to open a door onto an oncoming bicycle (or any other traffic), the A8 goes a step further by actually preventing it happening.
The A8 has a number of ultrasonic radar sensors on its front and rear bumpers that give it a medium range view of the surrounding world and can alert the driver when it is safe to change lanes or, in the future, allow for semi-autonomous driving.
For the so-called exit warning, the rear sensors can “see” traffic including bicycles approaching from the rear for up to three minutes after the engine has been turned off.
As with the A4 and Q7, the driver (or anyone else seated next to a door) will see red lights flashing on the door trim if they grab the door handle when a bicycle is approaching from behind.
If they ignore the visual warning and continue to open the door it simply locks, and the door physically cannot be opened until the cyclist, car or school bus has breezed past.
Date: 20/10/2017
The new version of Audi’s large luxury car, due to be released in Australia mid next year, includes technology specifically designed to save passing cyclists from injury or possible death from so-called “dooring” incidents.
While a number of new Audis such as the smaller A4 sedan and Q7 SUV have included warning lights alerting the car’s occupant is about to open a door onto an oncoming bicycle (or any other traffic), the A8 goes a step further by actually preventing it happening.
The A8 has a number of ultrasonic radar sensors on its front and rear bumpers that give it a medium range view of the surrounding world and can alert the driver when it is safe to change lanes or, in the future, allow for semi-autonomous driving.
For the so-called exit warning, the rear sensors can “see” traffic including bicycles approaching from the rear for up to three minutes after the engine has been turned off.
As with the A4 and Q7, the driver (or anyone else seated next to a door) will see red lights flashing on the door trim if they grab the door handle when a bicycle is approaching from behind.
If they ignore the visual warning and continue to open the door it simply locks, and the door physically cannot be opened until the cyclist, car or school bus has breezed past.
Date: 20/10/2017
09-23-19, 10:16 AM
#135
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Originally Posted by livedarklions
I think dooring is probably the most exaggerated hazard of riding, and I find in urban riding I am generally able to ride a bit further to the left when going fast to avoid the hazard, and if I'm going slow, there's generally plenty of notice that the door is opening.
It's certainly a risk (if not the largest one) and it might be larger in some places than others.
https://gothamist.com/news/what-is-n...ically-nothing
09-23-19, 10:30 AM
#136
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Originally Posted by KraneXL
The new version of Audi’s large luxury car, due to be released in Australia mid next year, includes technology specifically designed to save passing cyclists from injury or possible death from so-called “dooring” incidents.
While a number of new Audis such as the smaller A4 sedan and Q7 SUV have included warning lights alerting the car’s occupant is about to open a door onto an oncoming bicycle (or any other traffic), the A8 goes a step further by actually preventing it happening.
The A8 has a number of ultrasonic radar sensors on its front and rear bumpers that give it a medium range view of the surrounding world and can alert the driver when it is safe to change lanes or, in the future, allow for semi-autonomous driving.
For the so-called exit warning, the rear sensors can “see” traffic including bicycles approaching from the rear for up to three minutes after the engine has been turned off.
As with the A4 and Q7, the driver (or anyone else seated next to a door) will see red lights flashing on the door trim if they grab the door handle when a bicycle is approaching from behind.
If they ignore the visual warning and continue to open the door it simply locks, and the door physically cannot be opened until the cyclist, car or school bus has breezed past.
Date: 20/10/2017
While a number of new Audis such as the smaller A4 sedan and Q7 SUV have included warning lights alerting the car’s occupant is about to open a door onto an oncoming bicycle (or any other traffic), the A8 goes a step further by actually preventing it happening.
The A8 has a number of ultrasonic radar sensors on its front and rear bumpers that give it a medium range view of the surrounding world and can alert the driver when it is safe to change lanes or, in the future, allow for semi-autonomous driving.
For the so-called exit warning, the rear sensors can “see” traffic including bicycles approaching from the rear for up to three minutes after the engine has been turned off.
As with the A4 and Q7, the driver (or anyone else seated next to a door) will see red lights flashing on the door trim if they grab the door handle when a bicycle is approaching from behind.
If they ignore the visual warning and continue to open the door it simply locks, and the door physically cannot be opened until the cyclist, car or school bus has breezed past.
Date: 20/10/2017
Can the driver/owner can turn off this door restraint system?
You omitted the part in my Googled source https://www.drive.com.au/motor-news/...ch-115989.html that said back in 2017 -
According to Audi system expert Georg Maier: “The first thing is there is a warning. It’s based on the sensors in the rear. The second thing is it delays the release of the door, so whenever there is traffic from the rear it delays door opening by 0.8 seconds.”
Last edited by I-Like-To-Bike; 09-23-19 at 11:04 AM. Reason: Added more info from 2017 on this proposed Audi system
09-23-19, 10:36 AM
#137
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Originally Posted by genec
And yet all it took was a few child deaths a year to mandate a change in the electric window switch...
09-23-19, 10:41 AM
#138
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Originally Posted by njkayaker
What you and ILTB keep missing is that the technology to reduce doorings already exists in many vehicles and will become even more common.
09-23-19, 11:19 AM
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The time I came closest to getting doored, I shouted at the criminal who tried to kill me, something like "watch what the #!#%^! you're doing", and she told me that I should be on the sidewalk. I don't know what it's like elsewhere, but I'm somewhat sure that in Massachusetts, Boston area that if you do get hit by a door, legally the car's drive is at fault. Evern if you were being reckless (which I wasn't).
The other time I nearly got hit (both of these were at east ten or more years ago) I also yelled at the driver. And in a few minutes was in the same place as he was. And he said he rides bikes, and got hit by a car and went over the hood (or something, I forget what) and was seriously injured.
This didn't make me feel any better about it. He should know better than the average shmuck is how I saw it.
The other time I nearly got hit (both of these were at east ten or more years ago) I also yelled at the driver. And in a few minutes was in the same place as he was. And he said he rides bikes, and got hit by a car and went over the hood (or something, I forget what) and was seriously injured.
This didn't make me feel any better about it. He should know better than the average shmuck is how I saw it.
09-23-19, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by njkayaker
"Exaggerated" by whom?
It's certainly a risk (if not the largest one) and it might be larger in some places than others.
https://gothamist.com/news/what-is-n...ically-nothing
It's certainly a risk (if not the largest one) and it might be larger in some places than others.
https://gothamist.com/news/what-is-n...ically-nothing
09-23-19, 11:24 AM
#141
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This forum is about safety promotion, please tone down the language/rhetoric.
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09-23-19, 11:30 AM
#142
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Originally Posted by howardv
How do we change people's mentality?
09-23-19, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Leisesturm
I know a fair amount of car owners and only one has one capable of blind spot monitoring. Don't hold your breath for widespread adoption of this already existing technology. Especially do not hold your breath for any regulation requiring this already existing technology to be implemented beyond present levels.
* ABS brakes were introduced in high end cars. Now, they are standard.
* Rear view cameras were introduced in high end cars. Now, are standard.
There's no reason not to expect the same thing will happen with blind spot detection.
The blind spot detection is becoming more common every year.
The "not widespread" argument is a misdirection anyway.
If you have blind spot detection, why wouldn't you want it to also work for reducing dooring?
Last edited by njkayaker; 09-23-19 at 11:55 AM.
09-23-19, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by dkatz1
In Boston/Cambridge, etc, more than one cyclist has been killed by a door opening: like the woman in central square, Cambridge, hit by a door, knocked down into a traffic and run over by a bus. Just that ONCE is enough for me to take it seriously.
09-23-19, 11:58 AM
#145
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There is a law.
CVC 22517.
No person shall open the door of a vehicle on the side available to moving traffic unless it is reasonably safe to do so and can be done without interfering with the movement of such traffic, nor shall any person leave a door open on the side of a vehicle available to moving traffic for a period of time longer than necessary to load or unload passengers.
CVC 22517.
No person shall open the door of a vehicle on the side available to moving traffic unless it is reasonably safe to do so and can be done without interfering with the movement of such traffic, nor shall any person leave a door open on the side of a vehicle available to moving traffic for a period of time longer than necessary to load or unload passengers.
09-23-19, 12:05 PM
#146
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The only times I’ve been hurt riding my road bike are the times I’ve been overly concerned with inconveniencing drivers. The worst was riding through our local village on the 2 lane 25 mph Main Street with parked cars on both sides. My direction was slightly uphill so I was only able to go about 10 mph. Not wanting to cause drivers to have to wait to pass, I moved into the door zone. Mom with arms full of her daughter’s school books kicked open her door just as I was next to her and hit my handlebar, throwing me into the traffic lane. Fortunately the car behind me stopped in time and I only ended up with a broken collar bone and $1K damage to my bike.
I no longer EVER ride in the door zone no matter what. I’ve petitioned our town to include sharrows and signage telling drivers that cyclists may use the full lane.
I no longer EVER ride in the door zone no matter what. I’ve petitioned our town to include sharrows and signage telling drivers that cyclists may use the full lane.
09-23-19, 12:11 PM
#147
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I am amazed that they have cars parking that way. Of course that will lead to accidents. Drivers do not look for bicyclists!
09-23-19, 12:23 PM
#148
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Dont be "right" and hurt
When approaching a car I check to see if the driver is in or out.
Not safe to rely on the driver to remember to check before opening.
I'm a rider who has on occasion opening before looking
Not safe to rely on the driver to remember to check before opening.
I'm a rider who has on occasion opening before looking
09-23-19, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by howardv
How do we change people's mentality?
09-23-19, 12:34 PM
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Well here in NJ it appears that there are no rules as to which side you ride on including sidewalks. I'm surprised there aren't more accidents, riding on the road is dangerous enough while obeying the right of way and I expect it will only get worse.
