Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Advocacy & Safety
Reload this Page >

Federal Panel Seeks Mandatory Helmet Laws

Notices
Advocacy & Safety Cyclists should expect and demand safe accommodation on every public road, just as do all other users. Discuss your bicycle advocacy and safety concerns here.

Federal Panel Seeks Mandatory Helmet Laws

Old 11-12-19, 03:44 PM
  #76  
coopman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Slidell, Louisiana
Posts: 113

Bikes: Specialized Roll Sport Low Entry

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 46 Post(s)
Liked 39 Times in 26 Posts
Here in Louisiana, the state has made wearing a helmet voluntary for motorcycle riders. I would not expect them to rule differently for bicyclists. However, I choose to not leave my garage w/o my helmet on.
coopman is offline  
Old 11-12-19, 06:22 PM
  #77  
livedarklions
Cyclesomatic
 
livedarklions's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 5,876

Bikes: Trek FX 3; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Motobecane Fantom CX; Giant OCR A1

Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3031 Post(s)
Liked 1,486 Times in 891 Posts
Originally Posted by 63rickert View Post
Well, it seems we agree about at least a couple of things. Wonders shall never cease. If you would be so good as to refer me to the model of your son's helmet that would be appreciated. Sincerely.
I'm going to not get into another thing with you about helmets as my faith in them extends only to a belief that I am marginally safer from severe brain injury wearing one than not. There's actually a fair amount of empirical proof of this, and I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on the engineering.

BUT I did get the name of the helmet and I really do hope it's a good fit for you at $60:
https://www.giro.com/p/bronte-mips-bike-helmet
You can even get it in plain white!

Wear it in good health, sir, and someday we two old coots can meet up on the bike path and argue about the time of day.
livedarklions is offline  
Old 11-13-19, 10:35 AM
  #78  
rydabent
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Lincoln Ne
Posts: 7,709

Bikes: RANS Stratus TerraTrike Tour II

Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1473 Post(s)
Liked 109 Times in 62 Posts
Originally Posted by foothillbilly View Post
I'll admit to not reading the entire thread. Helmet-free riders are about 50% of the total here, and I live next to a recreational trail.

In any case, if mandatory helmet use comes here, I'll have a couple of nice bikes for sale cheap.
Here is a good example why dictates and regulations are bad. In this case this person says no more cycling for him if helmets become a law. That is just the opposite of what we need, we need more cyclist.
rydabent is offline  
Old 11-13-19, 10:38 AM
  #79  
rydabent
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Lincoln Ne
Posts: 7,709

Bikes: RANS Stratus TerraTrike Tour II

Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1473 Post(s)
Liked 109 Times in 62 Posts
Back about 1990 give or take Bell made a helmet that had a hard lexan shell. I think the name of it was Tourlite. I wish they still made them. That was real protection.
rydabent is offline  
Old 11-13-19, 06:23 PM
  #80  
Arthur Peabody
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 353
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 109 Post(s)
Liked 18 Times in 12 Posts
Originally Posted by Stadjer View Post
Still just another anti-cycling piece from the NYT.
I didn't think it was anti-cycling.
Arthur Peabody is offline  
Old 11-14-19, 05:22 AM
  #81  
livedarklions
Cyclesomatic
 
livedarklions's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 5,876

Bikes: Trek FX 3; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Motobecane Fantom CX; Giant OCR A1

Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3031 Post(s)
Liked 1,486 Times in 891 Posts
Originally Posted by rydabent View Post
Back about 1990 give or take Bell made a helmet that had a hard lexan shell. I think the name of it was Tourlite. I wish they still made them. That was real protection.
What exactly is the benefit of a hard shell? It's just more efficient at transferring the energy to your brain. That's not a good thing.

No points for comparison to motorcycle helmets, totally different probabilities because of speed. You need to point to something a bicyclist is likely to encounter where a hard shell would provide better protection.

BTW, the fact that no one sells a hard shell bike helmet even though it looks stronger (marketing appeal) reflects that the science is so clear on this that anyone selling them would be liable for the inevitable brain injuries that would result.
livedarklions is offline  
Old 11-14-19, 12:26 PM
  #82  
Stadjer
Senior Member
 
Stadjer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Groningen
Posts: 1,192

Bikes: Gazelle rod brakes, Batavus compact, Peugeot hybrid

Mentioned: 58 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2536 Post(s)
Liked 136 Times in 96 Posts
Originally Posted by Arthur Peabody View Post
I didn't think it was anti-cycling.
I'm always suspicious when the NYT writes about cycling because usually the message is not what it appears to be at first. I don't think it was fair and balanced on the helmet issue, and promoting helmets for urban cycling and even helmet laws is pro-cycling. It's what drivers and car lobbies do.
Stadjer is offline  
Old 11-14-19, 04:20 PM
  #83  
rydabent
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Lincoln Ne
Posts: 7,709

Bikes: RANS Stratus TerraTrike Tour II

Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1473 Post(s)
Liked 109 Times in 62 Posts
I guess the bottom line here is the fact many of us dont want some overbearing b'crat telling us what we have to do. This is supposed to be a free country. I ALWAYS wear my helmet, and those that dont really do make good organ donors.
rydabent is offline  
Old 11-14-19, 06:34 PM
  #84  
jon c. 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Posts: 3,825
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1037 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 92 Times in 59 Posts
Originally Posted by rydabent View Post
I guess the bottom line here is the fact many of us dont want some overbearing b'crat telling us what we have to do. This is supposed to be a free country. I ALWAYS wear my helmet, and those that dont really do make good organ donors.
Bureaucrats can make recommendations, but only your elected officials can pass mandatory helmet laws.

When I was a young man and seat belt usage was becoming mandatory, the warning buzzer that would sound if you weren't buckled up was easily silenced by disconnecting the wires under the seat. Which we promptly did on all our cars because the government wasn't going to tell us what to do. Over the intervening decades, I somehow came to live with this gross imposition on my freedom.

I don't favor helmet laws either, but in the grander scheme of things I can't get all that excited about them. Especially since I don't see it as very likely that they'll actually be imposed in many jurisdictions.
jon c. is offline  
Old 11-14-19, 07:51 PM
  #85  
Miele Man
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,795

Bikes: Miele Latina, Miele Suprema, Miele Uno SL, Miele MTB, Bianchi Model Unknown, Fiori Venezia, VeloSport Adamas AX

Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 608 Post(s)
Liked 221 Times in 155 Posts
Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
Snipped

As far as the shattering thing goes, yes, they shatter because they are dissipating the energy away from your head, just as the crumple zones in the car are dissipating the energy away from the passenger compartment. Bike helmets aren't designed to maximize their survival probabilities during a crash, they're designed to be sacrificed in order to increase the rider's chance of survival. Even if they appear intact after taking a blow, you should discard them as there may be microfractures that render them less effective.
Snipped.
Sorry but that is erroneous thinking. When a helmet breaks it's because the forces on the helmet have exceeded the helmet's foam capability. A shattered or otherwise broken helmet might be offering residual protection to the head via the broken pieces but impact absorption is virtually gone.

What gets me is when a helmet shatters or breaks very early like almost as soon as the impact occurs. I had a helmet that had a large piece break off the side when the helmet fell from the handlebar of a parked bicycle. I was really surprised about that and it got me to questioning nd looking for data on just how much protection a helmet really offers. I figure it's better than none but in some helmets that protection isn't much greater.

Cheers
Miele Man is offline  
Old 11-14-19, 07:54 PM
  #86  
Miele Man
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,795

Bikes: Miele Latina, Miele Suprema, Miele Uno SL, Miele MTB, Bianchi Model Unknown, Fiori Venezia, VeloSport Adamas AX

Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 608 Post(s)
Liked 221 Times in 155 Posts
Originally Posted by rydabent View Post
I guess the bottom line here is the fact many of us dont want some overbearing b'crat telling us what we have to do. This is supposed to be a free country. I ALWAYS wear my helmet, and those that dont really do make good organ donors.
What I find interesting about the helmet debate is when an accident occurs, the bicyclist is killed because of massive internal injuries yet never hit his or her head and the media coverage says the bicyclist wasn't wearing a helmet.

Cheers
Miele Man is offline  
Old 11-14-19, 07:57 PM
  #87  
Miele Man
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,795

Bikes: Miele Latina, Miele Suprema, Miele Uno SL, Miele MTB, Bianchi Model Unknown, Fiori Venezia, VeloSport Adamas AX

Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 608 Post(s)
Liked 221 Times in 155 Posts
Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
What exactly is the benefit of a hard shell? It's just more efficient at transferring the energy to your brain. That's not a good thing.

No points for comparison to motorcycle helmets, totally different probabilities because of speed. You need to point to something a bicyclist is likely to encounter where a hard shell would provide better protection.

BTW, the fact that no one sells a hard shell bike helmet even though it looks stronger (marketing appeal) reflects that the science is so clear on this that anyone selling them would be liable for the inevitable brain injuries that would result.
The benefit of a hard shell helmet is that it also offers protection from punctures and it offers a LOT more protection if the head slides along asphalt. The inner foam of the hard-shell helmet is designed to absorb the impact. Also, the heard-shell causes the impact to be spread over a wider area of the helmet thereby reducing point loading of the impact.

Cheers
Miele Man is offline  
Old 11-14-19, 08:00 PM
  #88  
Miele Man
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,795

Bikes: Miele Latina, Miele Suprema, Miele Uno SL, Miele MTB, Bianchi Model Unknown, Fiori Venezia, VeloSport Adamas AX

Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 608 Post(s)
Liked 221 Times in 155 Posts
Originally Posted by rydabent View Post
Back about 1990 give or take Bell made a helmet that had a hard lexan shell. I think the name of it was Tourlite. I wish they still made them. That was real protection.
Yes, in the late 1980s there were a number of good hard-shell helmets from different manufacturers. I too had a Tourlite. I also had a Vetta. It think manufacturers stopped making hard-shell helmets because it was a lot easier to make a helmet with a thin plastic coating. All that plastic coating is mostly for is to protect the foam from UV exposure.

Cheers
Miele Man is offline  
Old 11-14-19, 08:49 PM
  #89  
livedarklions
Cyclesomatic
 
livedarklions's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 5,876

Bikes: Trek FX 3; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Motobecane Fantom CX; Giant OCR A1

Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3031 Post(s)
Liked 1,486 Times in 891 Posts
Originally Posted by Miele Man View Post
Yes, in the late 1980s there were a number of good hard-shell helmets from different manufacturers. I too had a Tourlite. I also had a Vetta. It think manufacturers stopped making hard-shell helmets because it was a lot easier to make a helmet with a thin plastic coating. All that plastic coating is mostly for is to protect the foam from UV exposure.

Cheers
That's wrong. There's very little difference between the thin plastic and the hard shell in terms of slide protection and structural support. The foam is the impact absorber, and going with the thinner shell allows the foam to be thicker without putting a big heavy monstrosity on your head. It's true that in the event that the top of your head encounters a sharp object that the hard shell would provide more protection, but that's a fairly low probability event.

If you're flying down mountains at 40-55 mph, a hard shell might make sense, but for regular road riding, it's just not practical to make them wearable and safe.
livedarklions is offline  
Old 11-14-19, 09:05 PM
  #90  
mr_bill
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 3,920
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1714 Post(s)
Liked 205 Times in 160 Posts
FWIW, the early Bell bicycle helmets, including the Tourlite, didnít have a Lexan shell.

However, the Tourlite remains popular among people who have fond memories of wearing goat hair shirts.

-mr. bill
mr_bill is offline  
Likes For mr_bill:
Old 11-15-19, 07:59 AM
  #91  
livedarklions
Cyclesomatic
 
livedarklions's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 5,876

Bikes: Trek FX 3; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Motobecane Fantom CX; Giant OCR A1

Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3031 Post(s)
Liked 1,486 Times in 891 Posts
Originally Posted by mr_bill View Post
FWIW, the early Bell bicycle helmets, including the Tourlite, didnít have a Lexan shell.

However, the Tourlite remains popular among people who have fond memories of wearing goat hair shirts.

-mr. bill
TBH, I don't think I ever wore a helmet until about 1992, when my first kid was born. By coincidence, my one and only over the handlebars experience occurred about a week before he was born, and his mother talked me into having to wear one at all times at that point.

I cannot relate at all to getting nostalgic for a model of helmet, and don't believe for a second that the ones in the 1980s were somehow better than today's.
livedarklions is offline  
Old 01-28-20, 09:44 AM
  #92  
rydabent
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Lincoln Ne
Posts: 7,709

Bikes: RANS Stratus TerraTrike Tour II

Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1473 Post(s)
Liked 109 Times in 62 Posts
Another unelected group of people trying to be dictators.
rydabent is offline  
Old 01-28-20, 10:41 AM
  #93  
livedarklions
Cyclesomatic
 
livedarklions's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 5,876

Bikes: Trek FX 3; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Motobecane Fantom CX; Giant OCR A1

Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3031 Post(s)
Liked 1,486 Times in 891 Posts
Originally Posted by rydabent View Post
Another unelected group of people trying to be dictators.

A comment as insightful as a cat coughing up a hairball.
livedarklions is offline  
Old 01-28-20, 11:48 AM
  #94  
CliffordK
Senior Member
 
CliffordK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Posts: 23,910
Mentioned: 187 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10248 Post(s)
Liked 452 Times in 352 Posts
The problem with helmet laws is like seatbelt laws. Police often go out of their way to enforce them in situations where it just doesn't make any difference. In fact, there are situations where seatbelts may cause more harm than help (whiplash, entrapment, etc).

On a few occasions, I've deemed that the helmet was actually more dangerous to wear than to remove, generally due to overheating in low risk areas.

I would like to see greater helmet use, but would also like to see more people actually out on the bikes.
CliffordK is online now  
Old 01-28-20, 11:57 AM
  #95  
Riveting
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 538

Bikes: '13 Trek Madone 2.3, '13 Diamondback Hybrid Commuter, '17 Spec Roubaix Di2, '17 Spec Camber 29'er

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 198 Post(s)
Liked 42 Times in 30 Posts
Originally Posted by Flip Flop Rider View Post
...why not mandatory helmets for skateboarders, or children playing outside in general
Why not require motorists to wear helmets? I bet there are WAY more head injuries in car accidents annually, than on bikes (per capita).
Riveting is offline  
Old 01-28-20, 12:49 PM
  #96  
I-Like-To-Bike
Been Around Awhile
 
I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 28,088

Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked 270 Times in 168 Posts
Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
...cat coughing up a hairball.
Every couple of months my cat coughs up another hairball, just like her previous ones. Gotta wonder why, you would think once would be enough.
I-Like-To-Bike is offline  
Old 01-28-20, 02:32 PM
  #97  
ThermionicScott 
7-speed cultist
 
ThermionicScott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: CID
Posts: 19,658

Bikes: 1991 Bianchi Eros, 1964 Armstrong, 1988 Diamondback Ascent, 1988 Bianchi Premio, 1987 Bianchi Sport SX, 1980s Raleigh mixte (hers)

Mentioned: 83 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2584 Post(s)
Liked 463 Times in 335 Posts
Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
A comment as insightful as a cat coughing up a hairball.
I think @rydabent genuinely forgets that he has already posted in this thread.
__________________
Originally Posted by chandltp View Post
There's no such thing as too far.. just lack of time
Originally Posted by noglider
People in this forum are not typical.
RUSA #7498
ThermionicScott is offline  
Old 01-28-20, 02:46 PM
  #98  
unterhausen
Randomhead
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Happy Valley, Pennsylvania
Posts: 19,044
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked 141 Times in 119 Posts
Originally Posted by Riveting View Post
Why not require motorists to wear helmets? I bet there are WAY more head injuries in car accidents annually, than on bikes (per capita).
join the car helmet revolution. You are right about head injuries, the ones suffered in cars far outstrip those suffered by cyclists. Spleen injuries is a different matter.

Note that helmet laws should also be considered for people that use showers. Also much more common to get a head injury in a shower than on a bicycle.
unterhausen is offline  
Likes For unterhausen:
Old 01-29-20, 05:05 AM
  #99  
Stadjer
Senior Member
 
Stadjer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Groningen
Posts: 1,192

Bikes: Gazelle rod brakes, Batavus compact, Peugeot hybrid

Mentioned: 58 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2536 Post(s)
Liked 136 Times in 96 Posts
Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
The problem with helmet laws is like seatbelt laws. Police often go out of their way to enforce them in situations where it just doesn't make any difference. In fact, there are situations where seatbelts may cause more harm than help (whiplash, entrapment, etc).

On a few occasions, I've deemed that the helmet was actually more dangerous to wear than to remove, generally due to overheating in low risk areas.
I don't think that's a fair comparison. Allthough a seatbelt prevents people from beeing slung out of the car and landing safely on that truck full of hay that happened to pass by, in allmost all crashes it does a good job at limiting injury. The bicycle helmet is more like 'this is the only thing I can think of that makes me a bit less vulnerable, so I'll wear it.'

I would like to see greater helmet use, but would also like to see more people actually out on the bikes.
Which could make cycling a lot safer. I'm not going to tell people in a much more unsafe cycling environment than I'm in to ride helmetfree. But for the sake of cycling, I believe everybody should keep in mind there's no such thing as a bicycle helmet, it's a traffic helmet or a sports helmet. The percieved need to wear one doesn't come from the bicycle itself.

Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
A comment as insightful as a cat coughing up a hairball.
Not really. In general the trend of moving decision making to panels, committee's, boards and councils is a democratic issue.

Last edited by Stadjer; 01-29-20 at 05:43 AM.
Stadjer is offline  
Old 01-29-20, 06:02 AM
  #100  
CliffordK
Senior Member
 
CliffordK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Posts: 23,910
Mentioned: 187 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10248 Post(s)
Liked 452 Times in 352 Posts
Originally Posted by Stadjer View Post
I don't think that's a fair comparison. Allthough a seatbelt prevents people from beeing slung out of the car and landing safely on that truck full of hay that happened to pass by, in allmost all crashes it does a good job at limiting injury. The bicycle helmet is more like 'this is the only thing I can think of that makes me a bit less vulnerable, so I'll wear it.'


Which could make cycling a lot safer. I'm not going to tell people in a much more unsafe cycling environment than I'm in to ride helmetfree. But for the sake of cycling, I believe everybody should keep in mind there's no such thing as a bicycle helmet, it's a traffic helmet or a sports helmet. The percieved need to wear one doesn't come from the bicycle itself.
As far as bike helmets... if the issue is bike vs car accidents, then there is less of a chance of injury in a park or on a bike path. Of course, there are single bike accidents, or bike/bike or bike/pedestrian accidents. However, I don't think I've ever hit my head, even with a couple of low-speed flops.

It is rare that I have overheating issues with a bike helmet, but perhaps related to low speed (less ventilation), and working hard (cargo/hills/etc). I think once I felt the issue with a heavy cargo load, even in the early spring. And, another time on a day that hit > 100įF.

Nonetheless, I agree, for most riding the helmets are a good idea, at least within the parameters they were designed to protect from.

As far as seatbelts. They certainly are life-saving on the freeways. Yet, one has to also realize there are injuries associated with seatbelt use.

https://chiropractorofstlouis.com/bl...hiplash-injury

Noted elsewhere, banging into a steering wheel, dash, windshield, or being ejected from the car may be worse.

There seems to be a point around 10 to 20 MPH where the whiplash injuries are worse than unrestrained injuries.

Even at faster speeds, one frequently reduces speed considerably before collision, so one might be driving at 40 MPH, but impact at 10 MPH.
CliffordK is online now  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.