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Driver who kills two bicyclists gets ZERO jail time.

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Driver who kills two bicyclists gets ZERO jail time.

Old 01-31-20, 08:07 PM
  #26  
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A pedestrian was killed here yesterday. Student walking to class at 9 am. Driver ran a red light. The police announced today that appropriate citations would be issued to the driver but no criminal charges would be filed.

It was, after all, an accident.
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Old 02-02-20, 11:46 AM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by indyfabz View Post
You never know. My previous vehicle ('95 Mazda Protege) looked like crap when some moron kid totaled it while it was parked about 5 years ago. One of the sideview mirrors was even held on with duct tape. Perfect big city car. I had substantial assets at the time, in part because I have never had car vanity.
Sure, she could be the millionaire next door, but how likely is that scenario? Either way, your response misses the point. You're predicating a semblance of justice off the remote chance the defendant has money to their name rather than advocating for a systemic criminal statute that punishes this negligent behavior and invokes stricter liability.

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Old 02-02-20, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
Right road, but wrong side of the peninsula. The story states it happened in Davie. Even so, I'm not going to second-guess a choice to ride on a particular road unless it's categorically illegal. The blogger's judgment that riding on a 55 mph road is per se dangerous is just ill-informed.
It's not ill-informed. Granted, just because a road has a 55 mph limit doesn't automatically make it unsafe. I'll grant you that. However, there are a lot of other factors to consider. Is it a high-traffic street? Is it two lanes, four lanes, or six lanes? What time of day was it? What was the traffic like then? Was there a curve in the road just before the driver came upon the cyclists? There are a lot of details we don't know out of this story so we can't presume anything.

So, I guess the next question is: What should have the punishment been? My take is that anything that resembles a felony crime might be too harsh. Having a felony crime on your record is no laughing matter. It can ruin your life for good. It can get you fired from your job and make it super, super difficult to find another job. We have to weigh that in with the nature of what happened. If a person was completely negligent and irresponsible beyond any shadow of a doubt then, yes, perhaps a felony level sentence is warranted. But was that the case here? That's the question I ask of everyone reading this story.
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Old 02-02-20, 12:33 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by jeffwhitfield View Post
It's not ill-informed. Granted, just because a road has a 55 mph limit doesn't automatically make it unsafe. I'll grant you that. However, there are a lot of other factors to consider. Is it a high-traffic street? Is it two lanes, four lanes, or six lanes? What time of day was it? What was the traffic like then? Was there a curve in the road just before the driver came upon the cyclists? There are a lot of details we don't know out of this story so we can't presume anything.

So, I guess the next question is: What should have the punishment been? My take is that anything that resembles a felony crime might be too harsh. Having a felony crime on your record is no laughing matter. It can ruin your life for good. It can get you fired from your job and make it super, super difficult to find another job. We have to weigh that in with the nature of what happened. If a person was completely negligent and irresponsible beyond any shadow of a doubt then, yes, perhaps a felony level sentence is warranted. But was that the case here? That's the question I ask of everyone reading this story.

If you read his linked blog post, it actually made the judgment that riding was unsafe on that road based solely on the speed limit, no qualifiers and no apparent curiosity regarding the other factors you mentioned. So I would definitely stick by my judgment that the blog post was ill-informed, not to mention hypocritical given the statement that the blogger didn't want to make judgments.

I don't know whether she should have been convicted of a felony or not, but I do think the penalties for distracted driving need to be seriously evaluated.
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Old 02-02-20, 02:25 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
If you read his linked blog post, it actually made the judgment that riding was unsafe on that road based solely on the speed limit, no qualifiers and no apparent curiosity regarding the other factors you mentioned. So I would definitely stick by my judgment that the blog post was ill-informed, not to mention hypocritical given the statement that the blogger didn't want to make judgments.

I don't know whether she should have been convicted of a felony or not, but I do think the penalties for distracted driving need to be seriously evaluated.
I updated my blog post to reflect some of the discussion here. You're right, my post does make it sound like I was giving full judgment. The point I was trying to make is that we should consider all factors and realize that there's more to think about than whether or not the driver is guilty and should have a harsher punishment. You called me out on it and, hey, I honestly appreciate it. Constructive criticism is a good thing.
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Old 02-02-20, 02:58 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by jeffwhitfield View Post
I updated my blog post to reflect some of the discussion here. You're right, my post does make it sound like I was giving full judgment. The point I was trying to make is that we should consider all factors and realize that there's more to think about than whether or not the driver is guilty and should have a harsher punishment. You called me out on it and, hey, I honestly appreciate it. Constructive criticism is a good thing.

Cool! I read the update and appreciate the thoughtful response.
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Old 02-03-20, 06:59 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by Notso_fastLane View Post
We need to find a way to deter people from actually trying to use their phones while driving. She claims she 'only looked down for a second', and from what I can tell, wouldn't admit to looking at her cell phone. The whole point of these shouldn't be "punishment", although I totally understand the families wanting that. It should be about rehabilitating, so if the 'accident' was because the driver did something they shouldn't, there should be some appropriate training, and more importantly, IMO, some kind of monitoring to ensure they don't repeat the behavior (and not just not get caught....).
rehabilitation? that's your idea of justice? send this person to a class or two and call it good ? it's not about "punishment, i'll give you that. it's about ACCOUNTABILITY. and that has to come in the form of some severe pain and inconvenience, and pal, that ain't gonna happen with some training. some jail, sure. a hell of a lot of community service, definitely. having to stand on a street corner wearing a sign that says " i killed cyclists because i was using my cell phone while driving". you bet. but, some "rehabilitation" ? just hearing a suggestion like that makes me apoplectic .
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Old 02-03-20, 07:02 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by jon c. View Post
A pedestrian was killed here yesterday. Student walking to class at 9 am. Driver ran a red light. The police announced today that appropriate citations would be issued to the driver but no criminal charges would be filed.

It was, after all, an accident.
either you are joking or you are on some really bad drugs. running a red light an "accident" ? with an outlook like that, my friend, you are part of the problem. criminal charges should most definitely be filed. negligent homicide at a minimum.
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Old 02-03-20, 07:07 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by jeffwhitfield View Post
I talked about this recently on my blog (https://velonut.com/blog/bicycling-d...orida-cyclists). The short version of my opinion is this: We weren't there so it's hard to say exactly what happened. I do know it happened on a road with a 55 mph speed limit and she was doing close to 65 mph. She admits she was speeding. She admits to looking down for a second. On a road like that, that's all it takes to miss a group of cyclists, a pedestrian, or anything else. There's details we don't know such as "was there a bend in the road?" I think we have to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. Plus, I don't believe every driver should be punished with the equivalent of a felony offense. No need to completely ruin a person's life over what is truly an accident. Again, we just don't know enough to truly judge.

I do wonder this though: What the heck was that cycling group doing on a 55 mph street? I've ridden with many groups and we simply avoid high-speed streets for that very reason. Just way too easy for accidents to happen.
you are one of way too many people who call refer to negligence as an "accident". in my world, if an undesirable outcome can be prevented, it ain't no accident. speeding ? not paying attention ? you call that an accident ? you are misguided.
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Old 02-03-20, 07:25 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by adablduya View Post
you are one of way too many people who call refer to negligence as an "accident". in my world, if an undesirable outcome can be prevented, it ain't no accident. speeding ? not paying attention ? you call that an accident ? you are misguided.
I think youíre missing the point I was making. What were all the variables? We canít look at just the driverís actions and come to any sort of conclusion. Weíre only reading what the writers and news people are telling us. What information did the police officers at the scene record? What were the conditions of the road? What was the traffic like at that time? Was there a bend in the road? Perhaps a blind spot for the driver? What other factors might have played a part in this? Thatís not being misguided...thatís being open minded to the possibility that there are other factors we need to talk about.

Without actually being there and looking at the road, I have no idea on whether the city could improve conditions on that road to help curb more accidents. Higher speed roads without a shoulder or dedicated bike lanes are dangerous to ride on. So we have to think about that as well. In fact, Iím gonna see if I can find out where this accident occurred and, with the help of Google Maps, maybe look at the conditions of the road. Maybe that will shed some light on how we can improve things.

Safety starts with the driver, true. But thereís also things that cyclists can do as well as the city. We canít forget that.
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Old 02-03-20, 07:51 PM
  #36  
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Ok, so let’s look a little deeper at this. According to other news outlets in Florida, the incident happened at State Road 84 and Flamingo Road. I took a look at the intersection on Google Maps (https://goo.gl/maps/YNkTbR52sMEZeJTv6). I wasn’t able to locate the exact spot but, from what I can gather, it looks like they were on the feeder road of the State Road 84 freeway.

So, again, were these cyclist riding along the feeder of the freeway? If so, was that perhaps not a good idea? Personally, I avoid the feeder of most major freeways. Just not safe even in a group. Better to stick with roads and crossways that are more bike friendly and safer. Probably need to narrow down where they were riding though before passing judgement on whether the conditions played a part in this. Still, it’s not looking good for anyone involved.

What’s interesting is that there’s also a part called New River Greenway which runs along side the freeway and feeders. Based on what I can tell in Google Street View, this looks like a bicycle friendly path. If I were riding around there I’d probably ride on it or another street off and away from the freeway.
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Old 02-04-20, 08:37 AM
  #37  
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So what if the lady hadn’t been in her car but had been on her bicycle and rear ended the other bicyclists, for whatever reason? Damage done would have been significantly less and she’d be just as guilty of not paying attention, which was actually the crime. A couple of people would be hurt and mad and nobody else would have heard about it. The bikers were voluntarily sharing the road with the automobiles and trusting everybody was paying attention. I’m not taking sides. If the bikers would have all been in autos... or armored vehicles, different outcome.

To one earlier comment about her not suffering any ill effects, I doubt that will be the case.
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Old 02-04-20, 10:51 AM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by jeffwhitfield View Post
Ok, so let’s look a little deeper at this. According to other news outlets in Florida, the incident happened at State Road 84 and Flamingo Road. I took a look at the intersection on Google Maps (https://goo.gl/maps/YNkTbR52sMEZeJTv6). I wasn’t able to locate the exact spot but, from what I can gather, it looks like they were on the feeder road of the State Road 84 freeway.

So, again, were these cyclist riding along the feeder of the freeway? If so, was that perhaps not a good idea? Personally, I avoid the feeder of most major freeways. Just not safe even in a group. Better to stick with roads and crossways that are more bike friendly and safer. Probably need to narrow down where they were riding though before passing judgement on whether the conditions played a part in this. Still, it’s not looking good for anyone involved.

What’s interesting is that there’s also a part called New River Greenway which runs along side the freeway and feeders. Based on what I can tell in Google Street View, this looks like a bicycle friendly path. If I were riding around there I’d probably ride on it or another street off and away from the freeway.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/S+...38213?hl=en-US

You're still second-guessing the injured riders based on incomplete information. This stretch of road doesn't appear to be anything particularly dangerous, and it's within feet of that intersection. Also, note that the speed limit on that area doesn't appear to be 55 mph as reported. Heck, that's actually a marked bike lane on this road. You need to just stop digging the hole deeper, it just looks like you're giving drivers the benefit of the doubt and not extending the same to riders.

Last edited by livedarklions; 02-04-20 at 10:54 AM.
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Old 02-04-20, 11:34 AM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
https://www.google.com/maps/place/S+...38213?hl=en-US

You're still second-guessing the injured riders based on incomplete information. This stretch of road doesn't appear to be anything particularly dangerous, and it's within feet of that intersection. Also, note that the speed limit on that area doesn't appear to be 55 mph as reported. Heck, that's actually a marked bike lane on this road. You need to just stop digging the hole deeper, it just looks like you're giving drivers the benefit of the doubt and not extending the same to riders.
Youíre exactly right. I am giving the drivers the benefit of the doubt...at least to a degree. The fact of the matter is that we cyclists do not own the road. Neither do drivers either really. We share the road. As such, both drivers AND cyclists need to think about safety.

The irony is that you pointed out something that should be considered as well: the bike lane on that road. We still donít know for sure what part of the road this incident happened. Still, if it was on that stretch of road then I would hope they were riding in that lane.

In fact, itís good to see that such a lane exists on this road. However, look at the area a little closer. The bike lane doesnít appear to exist on both sides. Plus, it looks like itís only for a limited stretch of the feeder road, most likely acting as an extension of the New River Greenway trail.

This is all things that should be discussed. If it turns out that the area that these cyclists were in is prone to similar type accidents then the city needs to invest in bike lanes. Which is exactly the kind of thing we should be thinking about. It canít be strictly about how drivers need to pay more attention to cyclist. We have to think about the driver, the cyclist, as well as infrastructure.
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Old 02-04-20, 12:02 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by jeffwhitfield View Post
The irony is that you pointed out something that should be considered as well: the bike lane on that road. We still don’t know for sure what part of the road this incident happened. Still, if it was on that stretch of road then I would hope they were riding in that lane.
The ghost bike suggests it happened here:

https://www.google.com/maps/@26.1180...7i16384!8i8192

If you back up the speed limit is 55, unlike the 45 stretch further along the road posted earlier.

There's no bike lane there, but there is enough of a shoulder to make it seem possible to ride without competing for the same space as the cars, just as in the later section where that space is marked as a bike lane. But the size of the group and the fact that 5 cyclists were hit suggests they weren't all on the shoulder, but instead in a position that required active driver response, rather than merely staying in a lane.

At what roadway speed limit its no longer safe to have cyclists sharing the actual travel lanes is a complex philosophical question. At 55 mph signed, if someone's car were to break down in a travel lane there, they'd probably be advised to get out of it and go stand by that privacy wall while waiting for help, similarly if road work were going on, highway departments have learned enough about typical behavior to put out warning cones far before the actual obstruction, and dump trucks towing concrete crash barriers at bumper height are not uncommonly seen parked to shield workers.

Sad part is, any conflict there is unnecessary - the sidewalk along the wall demonstrates it's a corridor for human movement, there's plenty of space to build a nice bike lane beside the road, and the distance between intersections is enough that driver/cyclist mutual awareness wouldn't be preserved between them anyway.

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Old 02-04-20, 12:16 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by jeffwhitfield View Post
Youíre exactly right. I am giving the drivers the benefit of the doubt...at least to a degree. The fact of the matter is that we cyclists do not own the road. Neither do drivers either really. We share the road. As such, both drivers AND cyclists need to think about safety.

The irony is that you pointed out something that should be considered as well: the bike lane on that road. We still donít know for sure what part of the road this incident happened. Still, if it was on that stretch of road then I would hope they were riding in that lane.

In fact, itís good to see that such a lane exists on this road. However, look at the area a little closer. The bike lane doesnít appear to exist on both sides. Plus, it looks like itís only for a limited stretch of the feeder road, most likely acting as an extension of the New River Greenway trail.

This is all things that should be discussed. If it turns out that the area that these cyclists were in is prone to similar type accidents then the city needs to invest in bike lanes. Which is exactly the kind of thing we should be thinking about. It canít be strictly about how drivers need to pay more attention to cyclist. We have to think about the driver, the cyclist, as well as infrastructure.

I've posted several times in several threads that I find these amateur crash analyses distasteful and pointless, and that they tell us far more about the prejudices and agendas of the people posting them than they do anything useful. Whether you intended to or not, you've now suggested several times that we should consider whether we should blame the cyclists for their own demise based on whether they should have been riding on that particular road. Your earlier redraft of your blog fooled me into believing that you now understood why you probably shouldn't do that, but now you just want to keep going on with it.

Play junior NTSB all you want in your own head, but I really find this whole exercise completely disrespectful to dead cyclists and their families.

You do understand that she admitted plowing into these people because she was distracted, right? Why are you working so hard to figure out why the dead people were responsible for THAT?
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Old 02-04-20, 12:25 PM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by UniChris View Post
The ghost bike suggests it happened here:

https://www.google.com/maps/@26.1180...7i16384!8i8192

If you back up the speed limit is 55, unlike the 45 stretch further along the road posted earlier.

There's no bike lane there, but there is enough of a shoulder to make it seem possible to ride without competing for the same space as the cars, just as in the later section where that space is marked as a bike lane. But the size of the group and the fact that 5 cyclists were hit suggests they weren't all on the shoulder, but instead in a position that required active driver response, rather than merely staying in a lane.

At what roadway speed limit its no longer safe to have cyclists sharing the actual travel lanes is a complex philosophical question. At 55 mph signed, if someone's car were to break down in a travel lane there, they'd probably be advised to get out of it and go stand by that privacy wall while waiting for help, similarly if road work were going on, highway departments have learned enough about typical behavior to put out warning cones far before the actual obstruction, and dump trucks towing concrete crash barriers at bumper height are not uncommonly seen parked to shield workers.

Sad part is, any conflict there is unnecessary - the sidewalk along the wall demonstrates it's a corridor for human movement, there's plenty of space to build a nice bike lane beside the road, and the distance between intersections is enough that driver/cyclist mutual awareness wouldn't be preserved between them anyway.
Awesome! You found the spot!

All very, very good points and totally valid. I agree, this looks like a good opportunity for the city to add a bike lane. Definitely plenty of room there. That in itself would help immensely.
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Old 02-04-20, 12:36 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
I've posted several times in several threads that I find these amateur crash analyses distasteful and pointless, and that they tell us far more about the prejudices and agendas of the people posting them than they do anything useful. Whether you intended to or not, you've now suggested several times that we should consider whether we should blame the cyclists for their own demise based on whether they should have been riding on that particular road. Your earlier redraft of your blog fooled me into believing that you now understood why you probably shouldn't do that, but now you just want to keep going on with it.

Play junior NTSB all you want in your own head, but I really find this whole exercise completely disrespectful to dead cyclists and their families.

You do understand that she admitted plowing into these people because she was distracted, right? Why are you working so hard to figure out why the dead people were responsible for THAT?
First, I am not prejudiced and do not have an agenda. Your point is actually the opposite of what I see. Way too often I see people who respond viscerally and do not think through the problem. Like Iíve said on my blog and on here, we simply canít think about the driver alone. We have to look at all the factors that play into the safety of cyclists. If we donít then we end up ignoring the obvious. Part of that includes the infrastructure as well as the things cyclists themselves can do to promote safer riding. No doubt driver awareness is a big one...but itís not the only thing we can do. We canít just punish every distracted driver and assume thatís enough. Itís not. Which is entirely my point.

I have no problem in blaming the driver and, in this case, the driver clearly was part of the problem. She was clearly distracted. Her punishment is what it is. But I think thereís more to it, more questions to ask. So, I ask you: Can you keep an open mind and try to find out more facts about this particular case before jumping to conclusions? We still donít know all the facts about this case. Knowing them might help us solve problems even in our own area.

I live in Dallas and, believe me, I take cyclist safety very serious. My local cycling group takes safety very serious. Iíve talked with a lot of riders about the routes we take and how we can continue to make them as safe as possible. That includes modifying routes so that we avoid high-speed, high-traffic areas. Like it or not, along with distracted drivers, cyclists themselves can be part of the problem as well.
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Old 02-04-20, 02:35 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by jeffwhitfield View Post
First, I am not prejudiced and do not have an agenda. Your point is actually the opposite of what I see. Way too often I see people who respond viscerally and do not think through the problem. Like Iíve said on my blog and on here, we simply canít think about the driver alone. We have to look at all the factors that play into the safety of cyclists. If we donít then we end up ignoring the obvious. Part of that includes the infrastructure as well as the things cyclists themselves can do to promote safer riding. No doubt driver awareness is a big one...but itís not the only thing we can do. We canít just punish every distracted driver and assume thatís enough. Itís not. Which is entirely my point.

I have no problem in blaming the driver and, in this case, the driver clearly was part of the problem. She was clearly distracted. Her punishment is what it is. But I think thereís more to it, more questions to ask. So, I ask you: Can you keep an open mind and try to find out more facts about this particular case before jumping to conclusions? We still donít know all the facts about this case. Knowing them might help us solve problems even in our own area.

I live in Dallas and, believe me, I take cyclist safety very serious. My local cycling group takes safety very serious. Iíve talked with a lot of riders about the routes we take and how we can continue to make them as safe as possible. That includes modifying routes so that we avoid high-speed, high-traffic areas. Like it or not, along with distracted drivers, cyclists themselves can be part of the problem as well.

Nope. Seen too many of these threads, and they all end up going into the same stale discussion--an argument about what the facts are in some pointless debate about where to assign blame. My mind is plenty open, but I have seen no evidence that this particular format produces anything but people pretending to be experts making judgments about an event they neither witnessed nor know much about.

I would not expect you to care one whit about my evaluation of the safety of a route in Dallas, nor would I care about your opinion of the safety of any route I ride that you haven't been on. You may be safer riding on a bike path rather than a busy road, but we are constantly making trade-offs between safety probabilities and other considerations in every aspect of our lives, bicycling is no different in that regard. None of this is a news flash, and none of this required trying to go over the reported and somewhat random details of a person's death in an internet forum like we were arguing over a ref's call in a football game.
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Old 02-04-20, 03:59 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
Nope. Seen too many of these threads, and they all end up going into the same stale discussion--an argument about what the facts are in some pointless debate about where to assign blame. My mind is plenty open, but I have seen no evidence that this particular format produces anything but people pretending to be experts making judgments about an event they neither witnessed nor know much about.

I would not expect you to care one whit about my evaluation of the safety of a route in Dallas, nor would I care about your opinion of the safety of any route I ride that you haven't been on. You may be safer riding on a bike path rather than a busy road, but we are constantly making trade-offs between safety probabilities and other considerations in every aspect of our lives, bicycling is no different in that regard. None of this is a news flash, and none of this required trying to go over the reported and somewhat random details of a person's death in an internet forum like we were arguing over a ref's call in a football game.
Ok, I'm confused. What are you saying we should do then? Just not talk about it? What are you suggesting?
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Old 02-05-20, 02:06 AM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by jeffwhitfield View Post
Ok, I'm confused. What are you saying we should do then? Just not talk about it? What are you suggesting?

Quit pretending you can perform a proper inquest and stop second-guessing dead people.

Again, it's not a news flash that someone could be safer riding on a path. If the cyclist was riding where it was legal to ride, whether they "should" have been there isn't a legitimate inquiry, and certainly not one we have anything relevant to say about.
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Old 02-05-20, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
Quit pretending you can perform a proper inquest and stop second-guessing dead people.

Again, it's not a news flash that someone could be safer riding on a path. If the cyclist was riding where it was legal to ride, whether they "should" have been there isn't a legitimate inquiry, and certainly not one we have anything relevant to say about.
So Iím clear. Youíre saying that we shouldnít say anything at all because itís obvious? And thus we shouldnít talk about to honor the dead? I canít speak for you so Iím asking. What would you do?

Hereís my reaction to this.

When I first read this story, I noticed that the visceral reaction was ďThat woman got off way too easy!Ē Almost nothing was said about how this could have been prevented. Nothing. The only thing towards that was simply ďthe lady should have been paying attentionĒ and thatís it. My reaction was a bit different. I wondered what could have been done to prevent it. Being that the dead canít speak, we have to speak for them. Without this conversation, without a debate, absolutely nothing will come out of it other than there being dead cyclists as a result of a careless driver. We can do more.

Yes, no doubt, no debate, the lady should have been paying more attention. Thatís one way this could have been prevented. But the more I hear about these stories the more we also hear from other cyclists, even professional cyclists, that we simply canít rely on drivers to be mindful of cyclists and drive safely. That is an element that simply will not go away...like ever. There will always be drivers who will do things that make us unsafe as cyclists on the road. All the awareness, prevention with better bike lights, reflective stickers, none of that really matters if the driver isnít paying attention. Even stiffer penalties arenít a guarantee. People will still do stupid stuff behind the wheel. What else can we do?

Yes, the cyclists could have chosen a safer road to ride on. But, to many, itís their right to ride on that road. True...but is it still a good idea? Given that we canít always rely on drivers to pay attention, the risk may outweigh the the reward. But, I digress, itís still the cyclistís right to ride on that road. So...what else?

Iíve learned that the city could install dedicated bike lanes on that road. Thereís plenty of room to do so. So, my take on this is that one reasonable course of action would be to advocate the city to build bike lanes along the feeders of that freeway. That one step would help save lives by giving riders a free path without the risk of distracted drivers hitting them.
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Old 02-05-20, 10:24 AM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by jeffwhitfield View Post
So Iím clear. Youíre saying that we shouldnít say anything at all because itís obvious? And thus we shouldnít talk about to honor the dead? I canít speak for you so Iím asking. What would you do?

Hereís my reaction to this.

When I first read this story, I noticed that the visceral reaction was ďThat woman got off way too easy!Ē Almost nothing was said about how this could have been prevented. Nothing. The only thing towards that was simply ďthe lady should have been paying attentionĒ and thatís it. My reaction was a bit different. I wondered what could have been done to prevent it. Being that the dead canít speak, we have to speak for them. Without this conversation, without a debate, absolutely nothing will come out of it other than there being dead cyclists as a result of a careless driver. We can do more.

Yes, no doubt, no debate, the lady should have been paying more attention. Thatís one way this could have been prevented. But the more I hear about these stories the more we also hear from other cyclists, even professional cyclists, that we simply canít rely on drivers to be mindful of cyclists and drive safely. That is an element that simply will not go away...like ever. There will always be drivers who will do things that make us unsafe as cyclists on the road. All the awareness, prevention with better bike lights, reflective stickers, none of that really matters if the driver isnít paying attention. Even stiffer penalties arenít a guarantee. People will still do stupid stuff behind the wheel. What else can we do?

Yes, the cyclists could have chosen a safer road to ride on. But, to many, itís their right to ride on that road. True...but is it still a good idea? Given that we canít always rely on drivers to pay attention, the risk may outweigh the the reward. But, I digress, itís still the cyclistís right to ride on that road. So...what else?

Iíve learned that the city could install dedicated bike lanes on that road. Thereís plenty of room to do so. So, my take on this is that one reasonable course of action would be to advocate the city to build bike lanes along the feeders of that freeway. That one step would help save lives by giving riders a free path without the risk of distracted drivers hitting them.

So basically you see these death stories as an opportunity for everyone not involved to speculate on what everyone involved could have done that might have avoided the crash?

Knock yourself out, but why you imagine a conclusion that it would be nice if there was a path built near the busy road requires any analysis at all is beyond me. Water is wet, too, I don't need to offer my third-hand source suppositions of the actions of drowning victims in order to "prove" that.
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Old 02-05-20, 11:51 AM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
So basically you see these death stories as an opportunity for everyone not involved to speculate on what everyone involved could have done that might have avoided the crash?

Knock yourself out, but why you imagine a conclusion that it would be nice if there was a path built near the busy road requires any analysis at all is beyond me. Water is wet, too, I don't need to offer my third-hand source suppositions of the actions of drowning victims in order to "prove" that.
No, on the contrary. It's not about speculation. It's about advocating ways that make cyclists safer. Each and every situation has a lesson learned. Saying nothing and simply not talking about it accomplishes exactly that: nothing. The death of any cyclist is something that we should talk about. Having an open conversation about what could have been done to prevent it is one of those talks. If we don't then the same thing could happen in other places. If anything, the conversation can promote others to step up and perhaps advocate changes in the cities they live in. How about we reach out to this community in Florida and promote the bike path idea? Why would that not be good?
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Old 02-05-20, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by jeffwhitfield View Post
No, on the contrary. It's not about speculation. It's about advocating ways that make cyclists safer. Each and every situation has a lesson learned. Saying nothing and simply not talking about it accomplishes exactly that: nothing. The death of any cyclist is something that we should talk about. Having an open conversation about what could have been done to prevent it is one of those talks. If we don't then the same thing could happen in other places. If anything, the conversation can promote others to step up and perhaps advocate changes in the cities they live in. How about we reach out to this community in Florida and promote the bike path idea? Why would that not be good?
I'm sure no one in the vicinity of that crash has ever thought about bike paths and lanes, amirite?

So we're going to have a thread like this EVERY time a cyclist gets killed? Is that just in the U.S. or the entire world? If we just do the U.S. that's 800 threads a year. Knock yourself out.

And no, sometimes there isn't a lesson to be learned, especially when we can't agree on exactly what happened (aka, most of the time).
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