How do you convince people you love to use daytime running lights?
09-03-20, 05:48 AM
#76
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Would love to hear tips and links to research. I've seen a few studies on daytime running lights reducing accidents in motorcycles, cars, and bicycles. It is interesting how they do the studies -- because the argument is always that having lights on may make someone drive more safely.
It's taken time but I have convinced a few cyclists to spend more money on ultra-bright front lights (daytime, 1000+ lumen flashing) and rear lights (300 lumen) and have them on at all hours of the day.
One argument that works is showing before and after photos of a cyclist in shadows (whether a building or tree shadow). There is a clear difference in visibility, and it's obvious you can't plan in advance at high speeds if you hit shadows and don't know what's behind you. It is too much cognitive load, so worth spending the extra money up front to feel safer should you happen to bike into shadows.
It can feel wimpy to have lights on all the time, so what have you found works for convincing people you love to get that added bump in safety? This can elicit strong emotions so that's why I'm trying to figure out softer ways to have this conversation and hopefully we might save some lives!
It's taken time but I have convinced a few cyclists to spend more money on ultra-bright front lights (daytime, 1000+ lumen flashing) and rear lights (300 lumen) and have them on at all hours of the day.
One argument that works is showing before and after photos of a cyclist in shadows (whether a building or tree shadow). There is a clear difference in visibility, and it's obvious you can't plan in advance at high speeds if you hit shadows and don't know what's behind you. It is too much cognitive load, so worth spending the extra money up front to feel safer should you happen to bike into shadows.
It can feel wimpy to have lights on all the time, so what have you found works for convincing people you love to get that added bump in safety? This can elicit strong emotions so that's why I'm trying to figure out softer ways to have this conversation and hopefully we might save some lives!
09-03-20, 09:16 AM
#77
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Downhillmaster and others who post nasty comments: What I don't get is what the angry, nasty response is about. Even if flangehead was whining--which he wasn't, he was telling a story--and even if he was telling others what to do--he wasn't--your response perplexes me. Maybe you had a point about what he said that got lost in the nastiness. But if your entire purpose was just to be nasty because you didn't agree … is this the way you live your life when people know who you are?
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09-03-20, 02:10 PM
#78
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Several days ago I was riding in bright sunlight about 3:00 pm along a city street with a dedicated bike lane. I had on a burnt-orange jersey, bright green helmet and I had both bike-mounted lights on in flashing mode. I approached an intersection in the bike lane at about 18 mph and the traffic light turned green when I was about 200 feet away. I had no motor vehicles ahead or behind me. The intersection had very good sight lines, easily 500 feet in all directions and I'd say a quarter-mile off to my right.
I saw a car approaching the light from my right on the cross street and it did not slow at all. I began braking and slowed; the car passed through the intersection at undiminished speed. The traffic light remained green in my direction and I proceeded to cross the intersection.
Thoughts:
1. I don't know why the driver failed to stop. Unless I see an obvious cause (Corona bottle, cell phone..) I'm inclined to be forgiving about such things. I know I have inadvertently driven through red lights in a car. I was lucky I didn't crash but it shook me up.
2. In all likelihood, had I not braked either a) I would not be writing this reply or b) the car would have crashed either into a curb or a light pole.
3. Clearly, none of the visual practices I have (bright clothing, lane positioning, blinking DRL) were effective in this case. Though I often move into the motor vehicle traffic lane at intersections to improve my conspicuity, I did not do so in this case, probably because I didn't have any parallel-ish threats. Based on the angle of approach of the car and the clear sight lines, it would have made no difference. Blinking or solid DRL? Didn't matter.
This incident illustrates where my head is at. Absolute safety in any vehicle type will never happen. That doesn't mean I can't do things to improve my odds.
The "Swiss cheese model of accident causation" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_cheese_model) is what I've been trained with, and I think it applies to any vehicle. However, as a "vulnerable road user" I don't have access to the tons of cheese motorists have. (Note that the 30k+ annual road fatalities in the USA suggests motorists don't have enough cheese either.. but on a bright clear Sunday afternoon a ton of car at 30 mph has more cheese than I do.)
So I'll continue using tools to increase my conspicuity, mirrors to increase my situational awareness, road strategy to leave myself an out, practicing bike handling skills for crash avoidance and helmet/gloves. I'm continuously looking for more cheese slices to put on my sandwich.
So, yeah, I'll continue using DRL and, when there's a teachable moment, I'll encourage others to do so as well.
Context/Notes: Until COVID-19, most of my riding was for commuting and utility on suburban arterials both during the day and at night. Lately, I've been doing more recreational riding and have been using more MUP during daylight. Generally, I use front and back lights during the day except when I'm on MUP, where I turn them off. I run a variety of different lights mounted on the bicycle depending on what I have at hand. I have not finished researching all the source materials identified in the other daylight flashing thread, so I may change my mind, but for now I'm running flashing mode during the day. For bike mount, I only have a Cateye Volt 500 (500 lumen) forward and a Fabric Lumasense V2 red 30/100 lumen to the rear available to me at this time. (I recently found myself without a rear light and I splurged at the LBS for the Fabric. The Lumasense has an accelerometer and it goes solid red 100 lumen when it senses decelleration. Of course I can't see it, but my family members tell me it works. It is pretty pricey, though.) I also have a very small white Blackburn 2'fer mounted on the front of my helmet and a bright red Serfas on the back of my helmet, both of which I can easily turn on or off while riding. I only use them during the day when I feel I'm entering a threatening situation and I want to introduce a change in the visual field.
I saw a car approaching the light from my right on the cross street and it did not slow at all. I began braking and slowed; the car passed through the intersection at undiminished speed. The traffic light remained green in my direction and I proceeded to cross the intersection.
Thoughts:
1. I don't know why the driver failed to stop. Unless I see an obvious cause (Corona bottle, cell phone..) I'm inclined to be forgiving about such things. I know I have inadvertently driven through red lights in a car. I was lucky I didn't crash but it shook me up.
2. In all likelihood, had I not braked either a) I would not be writing this reply or b) the car would have crashed either into a curb or a light pole.
3. Clearly, none of the visual practices I have (bright clothing, lane positioning, blinking DRL) were effective in this case. Though I often move into the motor vehicle traffic lane at intersections to improve my conspicuity, I did not do so in this case, probably because I didn't have any parallel-ish threats. Based on the angle of approach of the car and the clear sight lines, it would have made no difference. Blinking or solid DRL? Didn't matter.
This incident illustrates where my head is at. Absolute safety in any vehicle type will never happen. That doesn't mean I can't do things to improve my odds.
The "Swiss cheese model of accident causation" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_cheese_model) is what I've been trained with, and I think it applies to any vehicle. However, as a "vulnerable road user" I don't have access to the tons of cheese motorists have. (Note that the 30k+ annual road fatalities in the USA suggests motorists don't have enough cheese either.. but on a bright clear Sunday afternoon a ton of car at 30 mph has more cheese than I do.)
So I'll continue using tools to increase my conspicuity, mirrors to increase my situational awareness, road strategy to leave myself an out, practicing bike handling skills for crash avoidance and helmet/gloves. I'm continuously looking for more cheese slices to put on my sandwich.
So, yeah, I'll continue using DRL and, when there's a teachable moment, I'll encourage others to do so as well.
Context/Notes: Until COVID-19, most of my riding was for commuting and utility on suburban arterials both during the day and at night. Lately, I've been doing more recreational riding and have been using more MUP during daylight. Generally, I use front and back lights during the day except when I'm on MUP, where I turn them off. I run a variety of different lights mounted on the bicycle depending on what I have at hand. I have not finished researching all the source materials identified in the other daylight flashing thread, so I may change my mind, but for now I'm running flashing mode during the day. For bike mount, I only have a Cateye Volt 500 (500 lumen) forward and a Fabric Lumasense V2 red 30/100 lumen to the rear available to me at this time. (I recently found myself without a rear light and I splurged at the LBS for the Fabric. The Lumasense has an accelerometer and it goes solid red 100 lumen when it senses decelleration. Of course I can't see it, but my family members tell me it works. It is pretty pricey, though.) I also have a very small white Blackburn 2'fer mounted on the front of my helmet and a bright red Serfas on the back of my helmet, both of which I can easily turn on or off while riding. I only use them during the day when I feel I'm entering a threatening situation and I want to introduce a change in the visual field.
Cheers
09-03-20, 09:27 PM
#79
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For me in the daytime: 800 lumen front strobe and 250 lumen rear strobe (red), aimed towards the horizon. Always. What may or may not momentarily annoy an automobile driver zipping past me may save my life one day. And I can honestly say that when I drive my car and encounter another strobe-equipped cyclist, it's not an annoyance in any shape or form. During the day my pupils are already constricted to adjust for the ambient light - no bike strobe is going to "blind" me.
At night it's a different matter. A steady front light aimed down about 10 meters or so in front of me, and a steady red rear light. Always.
At night it's a different matter. A steady front light aimed down about 10 meters or so in front of me, and a steady red rear light. Always.
09-04-20, 09:36 AM
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I really don't get this post, this incident doesn't illustrate the value of anything other than good brakes and braking skills. It certainly does NOT illustrate the value of a blinking DRL, and there's a lot of double-talk in that post to try to get around that. I think what you've actually done is construct an argument whose logic could be used to support the carrying of virtually any portable item while you ride. I could plug in "dayglow lucky rabbit's foot" everywhere you have "blinking DRL" in that post, and it would make just about as much sense.
For instance, just the other morning I was riding the outside (right) lane of a 4-lane street, a car passed me in the inside lane just before we reached an intersection where someone was waiting to turn left across it. I instantly recognized that the driver turning left may or may not have seen me, and instead focused on the car which had just gone past me, or they may or may not have seen me because the car which passed me was between me and the turning vehicle. So I slowed down a bit in case the turning car was going to turn in front of me. Luckily they waited for me to pass as well and didn't turn in front of me, but I was ready in case they did. Even though I had one steady and one strobing light on the front of my bike, I wasn't going to just assume the driver saw them.
Last edited by Milton Keynes; 09-04-20 at 09:46 AM.
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09-04-20, 10:54 AM
#81
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If anything, it says to me to not just rely on blinking lights as a safeguard but also heavily rely on your situational awareness and remain alert for any possible hazards. I tend to do this already and don't let myself become complacent just because I ride a bike with lights all over it. I'm not saying that using lights during the day won't help, but being aware of your surroundings and primarily other traffic is the #1 thing which will keep you from becoming a statistic.
For instance, just the other morning I was riding the outside (right) lane of a 4-lane street, a car passed me in the inside lane just before we reached an intersection where someone was waiting to turn left across it. I instantly recognized that the driver turning left may or may not have seen me, and instead focused on the car which had just gone past me, or they may or may not have seen me because the car which passed me was between me and the turning vehicle. So I slowed down a bit in case the turning car was going to turn in front of me. Luckily they waited for me to pass as well and didn't turn in front of me, but I was ready in case they did. Even though I had one steady and one strobing light on the front of my bike, I wasn't going to just assume the driver saw them.
For instance, just the other morning I was riding the outside (right) lane of a 4-lane street, a car passed me in the inside lane just before we reached an intersection where someone was waiting to turn left across it. I instantly recognized that the driver turning left may or may not have seen me, and instead focused on the car which had just gone past me, or they may or may not have seen me because the car which passed me was between me and the turning vehicle. So I slowed down a bit in case the turning car was going to turn in front of me. Luckily they waited for me to pass as well and didn't turn in front of me, but I was ready in case they did. Even though I had one steady and one strobing light on the front of my bike, I wasn't going to just assume the driver saw them.
I doubt there's any way to test this, but it wouldn't surprise me if people risk closer calls because they assume their bright lights will scare the cars away.
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09-04-20, 12:23 PM
#82
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Does anybody really just rely on blinking lights? Is there anything that suggests that being aware of your situation and remain alert isn't a good idea?
Last edited by njkayaker; 09-05-20 at 06:11 AM.
09-04-20, 12:31 PM
#83
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- That it took you so long to come to this conclusion.
- That you managed not to get killed before reaching it.
- That you think that this is a new concept to people here.
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09-04-20, 02:52 PM
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I don't think it's impossible for some riders to be lulled into a false sense of safety because they have blinking lights on their bike.
09-04-20, 03:47 PM
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The issue of being lulled by a false sense of safety is also raised when discussing the risk reduction value of wearing specific bicycling apparel.
09-04-20, 04:11 PM
#86
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Mounting a flashing 700 lumen light right where it's best positioned to hit a driver's eyes directly, what could go wrong?
Again, someone so obsessed with eliminating the probability of an unlikely hit that they don't notice the obvious immediate hazard they're creating.
Again, someone so obsessed with eliminating the probability of an unlikely hit that they don't notice the obvious immediate hazard they're creating.
No.
09-04-20, 05:14 PM
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But so what?
There are some people (apparently) who believe the earth is flat but I don't think there are many of them.
Still, even among the population who are "lulled into a false sense of safety", probably very few of them believe that relying on blinking lights, a lack of situational awareness, or not remaining alert is a good idea.
Do you think any of these people are reading this forum?
Last edited by njkayaker; 09-04-20 at 05:33 PM.
09-04-20, 05:14 PM
#88
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Well, I tend to wear brightly colored clothing, but again, as with lights, I keep up my situational awareness and don't assume that motorists see me.
09-04-20, 05:22 PM
#89
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What is it about this subject that makes people think they're airplanes and ambulances?
09-04-20, 08:20 PM
#90
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Not about me being a fire engine. Its about flashing lights being dangerous to the traffic. Which they the are not. So get a grip, man.
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09-04-20, 11:21 PM
#91
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My grip is fine, dude. Maybe you should learn to write like a grownup?
BTW, you seem to be ignoring that the post I was responding to obviously was referring to wearing a 700 lumen flashing light on a helmet at night. If the person was talking about daytime, the reference to reflecting light off of street signs made no sense. By your own post, I can see you wouldn't approve of that. You have your light pointed at the horizon and solid at night.
Last edited by livedarklions; 09-04-20 at 11:34 PM.
09-05-20, 04:45 AM
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Nothing beats having a blinking light on the helmet pushing 700+ lumens. When the cyclist is approaching an intersection, looking left and right will immediately light up any reflective surface. I have caught many cars doing this...and it stops 'em right in their tracks.
Again, someone so obsessed with eliminating the probability of an unlikely hit that they don't notice the obvious immediate hazard they're creating.
Did you notice they who said this just joined and this is their first (and only) post?
Odd claim.
Last edited by njkayaker; 09-05-20 at 05:00 AM.
09-05-20, 05:23 PM
#93
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The best way to convince anyone to use or do something is to show them. Take the bicycle and set it in a shaded spot and then ask the loved one to spot the bicycle. Then show them the same situation but with the lights on.
Cheers
Cheers
09-05-20, 05:57 PM
#94
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Great demonstration of why you should put a light on a bike before you park it in the middle of the street. Now in the real world, I can't ever recall losing sight of a rider in the shade on a street.
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09-05-20, 08:01 PM
#95
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Yes, your assertion is quite convincing, especially the completely inept invocation of lights on emergency vehicles that have a totally different light setup for completely different purposes. If you were right, btw, wouldn't motorcycle cops have flashing lights on their heads?
My grip is fine, dude. Maybe you should learn to write like a grownup?
BTW, you seem to be ignoring that the post I was responding to obviously was referring to wearing a 700 lumen flashing light on a helmet at night. If the person was talking about daytime, the reference to reflecting light off of street signs made no sense. By your own post, I can see you wouldn't approve of that. You have your light pointed at the horizon and solid at night.
My grip is fine, dude. Maybe you should learn to write like a grownup?
BTW, you seem to be ignoring that the post I was responding to obviously was referring to wearing a 700 lumen flashing light on a helmet at night. If the person was talking about daytime, the reference to reflecting light off of street signs made no sense. By your own post, I can see you wouldn't approve of that. You have your light pointed at the horizon and solid at night.
So it appears that this whole unpleasant discussion is a misunderstanding based on your poor reading comprehension. That's OK, I forgive you. Now go out and RIDE!
09-05-20, 08:03 PM
#96
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You must not be paying attention. Its not about losing sight of someone you already see. Its about seeing someone ahead whom you have not yet seen.
09-05-20, 08:38 PM
#97
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plus one for this. ^^
also: STOP THE STROBING -STOP THE STROBING -STOP THE STROBING -STOP THE STROBING -STOP THE STROBING -STOP THE STROBING -STOP THE STROBING -STOP THE STROBING -STOP THE STROBING -STOP THE STROBING -STOP THE STROBING -
- ok you get the point. If you want to convince me to run a head light on a bright sunny day....... STOP THE STROBING!
Otherwise I'm just gong to do the opposite of what you say. Whatever it is. You'll be able to get all my money by telling me not to give you my money. I really can't stand the strobing.
- Yes, a sore spot. I really can't stand it and don't understand it. So just stop it.
I dread the day I read the news that a strobing cyclist helped a motorist learn they have epilepsy because the strobing head light of a cyclist gave the motorist a seizure https://www.epilepsysociety.org.uk/p...y#.Xv-ciud7mUk
OK. Rant done. Thanks for bringing this up. Remember, you brought it up. I just went off the rails.
Cheers. Cioa. Have a nice day.
STOP THE STROBING
also: STOP THE STROBING -STOP THE STROBING -STOP THE STROBING -STOP THE STROBING -STOP THE STROBING -STOP THE STROBING -STOP THE STROBING -STOP THE STROBING -STOP THE STROBING -STOP THE STROBING -STOP THE STROBING -
- ok you get the point. If you want to convince me to run a head light on a bright sunny day....... STOP THE STROBING!
Otherwise I'm just gong to do the opposite of what you say. Whatever it is. You'll be able to get all my money by telling me not to give you my money. I really can't stand the strobing.
- Yes, a sore spot. I really can't stand it and don't understand it. So just stop it.
I dread the day I read the news that a strobing cyclist helped a motorist learn they have epilepsy because the strobing head light of a cyclist gave the motorist a seizure https://www.epilepsysociety.org.uk/p...y#.Xv-ciud7mUk
OK. Rant done. Thanks for bringing this up. Remember, you brought it up. I just went off the rails.
Cheers. Cioa. Have a nice day.
STOP THE STROBING
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09-05-20, 08:50 PM
#98
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It's up to each person, but if you're using high lumen blinking lights on the bike path I hate you; steady lights I can live with, steady headlights that are insanely bright and pointed to illuminate the path I can live with; your stupid bright light that is designed to let drivers see you on a separate path designated only for hikers and bikers with no traffic anywhere and you'll only convince me you're a terrible person. I ride a local MUP near me, was trying to pass this guy with his blinking tail light, he was moving pretty quick, probably 20ish mph, I was probably moving 1-1.5mph faster so fast enough to pass but not fast enough to do it quickly. Seriously surprised I didn't have a seizure and my eyes were burning from the glare of this light I could do nothing to avoid. I did tell the guy as I rode along side him that his light sucked and I thought he was rude for blinding cyclists on a bike path with it. But there's also the ones who have their night time wonder headlights on flashing mode repeatedly blinding you, thankfully that tends to be quicker to get away from but there seems to be more of these nuisances all the time.
Personally when I ride at night I have two flashing tails, a 1200 lumen and a 1600 lumen both lighting different stretches of road. I want to be seen and I don't ride any place during the day where I'd believe they'd make any difference and being careful and aware is the greatest asset to staying safe. But on the path, turn them down and steady or turn them off.
Personally when I ride at night I have two flashing tails, a 1200 lumen and a 1600 lumen both lighting different stretches of road. I want to be seen and I don't ride any place during the day where I'd believe they'd make any difference and being careful and aware is the greatest asset to staying safe. But on the path, turn them down and steady or turn them off.
09-06-20, 03:39 AM
#99
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You must read better, grasshopper. My light pointed at the horizon is only during daylight. At night, I aim it at the ground 10-20 feet in front of me. Go back and re-read my post and enlighten yourself...
So it appears that this whole unpleasant discussion is a misunderstanding based on your poor reading comprehension. That's OK, I forgive you. Now go out and RIDE!
So it appears that this whole unpleasant discussion is a misunderstanding based on your poor reading comprehension. That's OK, I forgive you. Now go out and RIDE!
Try actually reading the thread. The quote you originally attacked me for with the nonsense about ambulances was a response to someone else who was going on about wearing a 700 lumen light on his helmet and using it to illuminate signs. Normal reading comprehension will tell you that he is describing riding at night with a 700 lumen helmet -mounted light, which is in a position to shine quite directly into the eyes of drivers.
As to your usage, we agree that you wouldn't do this, which is the only point I made about your light use. Again, the reading comprehension issue is not mine.
You've been defending something that is quite stupid and you didn't even know it. Maybe you should sober up before posting.
09-06-20, 03:44 AM
#100
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I do pay attention. I've never seen a situation as a driver where the drl made any difference. Silly demonstrations of bikes parked under trees wouldn't impress me in the slightest as that has literally nothing to do with real-life road situations. Bikes on roads have people on them and are generally moving.
