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Baetis 01-12-21 09:02 PM

vehicle-bike crash study
 
Anatomy Of A Bicycle Crash: Thousands Of Colorado Riders Injured In A Decade | KUNC

alo 01-12-21 10:57 PM

I see a problem with the logic. When accidents occur between vehicles and bicycles, the vehicle is at fault.

There are so many different situations, it becomes impossible to discuss all possibilities. Let's consider an example.

Cyclists are out cycling on a country road. A vehicle goes around a corner or over a hill, and there is the cyclist. One second later, they hit the cyclist.

Drivers don't want to hit cyclists. There may be some cases of drink driving, or distracted driving, or even arrogant drivers, but in most cases the cyclist was completely unexpected by the driver.

You can say and do what you like with drivers, and you may get some reduction of these types of accidents. But to significantly reduce them, cyclists need to be aware of the dangers, and take precautions.

I know some cyclists are in situations where it is difficult to do things differently. Many others can.

How clever are you if you have on your tombstone, 'It was the driver's fault.'

Be aware, and take responsibility for your own safety.

To put it another way. There are drivers who may not see you. Do what you can to be safe in those situations.

cubewheels 01-13-21 08:58 AM


Originally Posted by alo (Post 21875512)
Cyclists are out cycling on a country road. A vehicle goes around a corner or over a hill, and there is the cyclist. One second later, they hit the cyclist.

In some places or countries, they put large curved mirrors right at the blind corners even in the mountains.

If not, you could say it's probably the government's fault?

work4bike 01-13-21 09:43 AM


I've been hit by vehicles five time (one of them was another cyclist). The four times I was hit by a car/SUV were at intersections, in each case the car was making a turn, except once where a car pulled out in front of me at a stop sign (I had the Right-of-Way with no stop sign).

I've learned to be very cautious at all intersections and on roadways with a lot of places for potential of a Right-hook. One thing I do is take the lane at all intersections where I can do the same speed as the vehicles, this includes when I stop at a light/sign or when I approach a light that has just turned green and all cars are just starting to go; I'll find a spot to take the lane and ride thru the intersection and then FRAP as the speed picks up.

Being highly visible to others and using a mirror is critical for these type roads. Your head must be on a swivel.



.

Paul Barnard 01-13-21 12:19 PM


Originally Posted by alo (Post 21875512)

You can say and do what you like with drivers, and you may get some reduction of these types of accidents. But to significantly reduce them, cyclists need to be aware of the dangers, and take precautions.

I can't remember anywhere being exposed to the concept of "don't outdrive your line of sight" in my driver's education. It was only when I started studying motorcycle safety that the concept was emphasized. I say that to say that ALL state driver's education programs need to be revamped. In each program a segment on sharing the road with cyclists and bicycle law needs to be covered. Nobody should be grandfathered in. Proof of passing the bicycle law/safety segment of a test should be required before a license can be renewed.

Your point is well taken though. We need to ride as defensively as possible.

Paul Barnard 01-13-21 12:23 PM

From the link. “The truck came out of nowhere." Uh, no it didn't.

Paul Barnard 01-13-21 12:25 PM

From the link: ...you want to go get ahead of the traffic that’s behind you if you can.”

Oh you do?

Paul Barnard 01-13-21 12:30 PM

A lot of facts that point to the need for driver reeducation, but no mention of it in the link. Driver reeducation is one of those "if I were king for a day..." things. It's far too easy to get a driver's license in this country.

work4bike 01-13-21 03:17 PM


Originally Posted by work4bike (Post 21875913)
I've been hit by vehicles five time (one of them was another cyclist). The four times I was hit by a car/SUV were at intersections, in each case the car was making a turn, except once where a car pulled out in front of me at a stop sign (I had the Right-of-Way with no stop sign).

I've learned to be very cautious at all intersections and on roadways with a lot of places for potential of a Right-hook. One thing I do is take the lane at all intersections where I can do the same speed as the vehicles, this includes when I stop at a light/sign or when I approach a light that has just turned green and all cars are just starting to go; I'll find a spot to take the lane and ride thru the intersection and then FRAP as the speed picks up.

Being highly visible to others and using a mirror is critical for these type roads. Your head must be on a swivel.



.

In the first 20-seconds of this video is a perfect example of where I would have taken the lane behind that limo.


noimagination 01-13-21 03:45 PM


Originally Posted by alo (Post 21875512)
I see a problem with the logic. When accidents occur between vehicles and bicycles, the vehicle is at fault.

There are so many different situations, it becomes impossible to discuss all possibilities. Let's consider an example.

Cyclists are out cycling on a country road. A vehicle goes around a corner or over a hill, and there is the cyclist. One second later, they hit the cyclist.

Drivers don't want to hit cyclists. There may be some cases of drink driving, or distracted driving, or even arrogant drivers, but in most cases the cyclist was completely unexpected by the driver.

You can say and do what you like with drivers, and you may get some reduction of these types of accidents. But to significantly reduce them, cyclists need to be aware of the dangers, and take precautions.

I know some cyclists are in situations where it is difficult to do things differently. Many others can.

How clever are you if you have on your tombstone, 'It was the driver's fault.'

Be aware, and take responsibility for your own safety.

To put it another way. There are drivers who may not see you. Do what you can to be safe in those situations.

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say here. Yes, of course the cyclist must take some responsibility for their own safety. I don't think the article in any way implied that this was not the case. You seem to be saying that true accidents exist - that there are circumstances where everyone does everything right, and someone still gets hurt. I would agree with this, and this is one of the things that "Vision Zero" and other similar safety initiatives would try to address, by analyzing accidents and putting in engineering controls or other safety measures to prevent the circumstances from occurring (for example, protected bike lanes, bike overpasses, etc.).

I hope you're not saying that we should just throw our hands up in the air and not do anything other than tell each other "Be Visible And Be Careful!!!"

I also hope that you aren't trying to say that drivers (and cyclists) always act in their best interests ("Drivers don't want to hit cyclists"). Of course they don't (other than the occasional psychopath or rager), but that doesn't mean that they do not act in ways that unnecessarily increase the risk to cyclists (going too fast to react when there are blind spots in the road, for example). Again, I don't think it's unreasonable to look at the situation with new eyes and try to come up with solutions to mitigate risk to some extent.

Please reconsider your use of the word "impossible". Yes, there is no one easy fix that will eliminate bike-car crashes. And any set of solutions will not be perfect and will not eliminate all such crashes. That isn't a reason to give up and not do anything, however.

Trevtassie 01-13-21 05:13 PM

You'd be amazed the difference strict liability laws make to motorists and cyclists behaviour.

cubewheels 01-13-21 08:16 PM


Originally Posted by work4bike (Post 21875913)
One thing I do is take the lane at all intersections where I can do the same speed as the vehicles, this includes when I stop at a light/sign or when I approach a light that has just turned green and all cars are just starting to go; I'll find a spot to take the lane and ride thru the intersection and then FRAP as the speed picks up.

It's the right thing to do, unfortunately, in my city, A LOT of drivers gets fuming mad and honk forever if you do this, even if they can't actually pass you (everyone is moving at the same speed).

If I take the extreme side of the lane even though it's not as safe as taking the lane, the drivers will not object.

dabac 01-14-21 01:45 AM


Originally Posted by Paul Barnard (Post 21876173)
From the link. “The truck came out of nowhere." Uh, no it didn't.

I can relate to that point of view.
I put considerable effort into riding defensibly, sensibly and predictably.
Yet, I have to make SOME assumptions based on probability and experience on what the other road users are about to do.
If I were to use the physical limits of what they - and their vehicles - COULD do, riding in traffic would be pretty much impossible.
And every now and then, some other road user does something so illegal, so pointless that it falls below my threshold of probability.
These may well appear as ”coming from nowhere” as, until reality proved me wrong, I simply didn’t consider it credible that someone would do what they just did.
Like the guy who tried to overtake AND turn right in the same intersection.
I was going straight through, so despite being a light-regulated intersection I’m watching for possible cross traffic and I’m keeping an eye on the pedestrian crossing at the other side. Watching out for someone looking to overtake and toss their car into my line of travel wasn’t something I had considered.
His move truly caught me by surprise. I could well have described that as ”coming from nowhere”.

work4bike 01-14-21 07:48 AM


Originally Posted by cubewheels (Post 21876869)
It's the right thing to do, unfortunately, in my city, A LOT of drivers gets fuming mad and honk forever if you do this, even if they can't actually pass you (everyone is moving at the same speed).

If I take the extreme side of the lane even though it's not as safe as taking the lane, the drivers will not object.

I also get the same reaction, but not too bad, not too many people lay on their horns when I do it, but I do get a lot of strange looks. However, after a while of the motorist being behind me, I think they understand what I'm doing when they see me go back to FRAP'ing after the danger has passed.

There are other instances where I take the lane, to improve my visibility to other drivers. A fairly good example is in the below video, especially @5:15 of the video. This video is from NY, but their laws are very similar to mine here in Florida, but I'm totally in the dark with the laws in the Philippines.



cubewheels 01-14-21 09:25 AM


Originally Posted by work4bike (Post 21877318)
I also get the same reaction, but not too bad, not too many people lay on their horns when I do it, but I do get a lot of strange looks. However, after a while of the motorist being behind me, I think they understand what I'm doing when they see me go back to FRAP'ing after the danger has passed.

There are other instances where I take the lane, to improve my visibility to other drivers. A fairly good example is in the below video, especially @5:15 of the video. This video is from NY, but their laws are very similar to mine here in Florida, but I'm totally in the dark with the laws in the Philippines.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nvvo91Pep_M

Thanks, yeah, I definitely do that in 5:15 all the time. Laws are also similar in the Philippines but these laws are at its infancy atm. We didn't had bike lanes for instance in the Pre-Covid era.

I very often nearly collided with vehicles turning right who don't yield to cyclists, in fact, here, they will even try to pass me to make a full 90 degree right turn even if I'm going about 30 mph. Some almost skidding out of control, trying to make a sharp turn to the right after they pass me at more than 30 mph!

Paul Barnard 01-14-21 10:05 AM


Originally Posted by work4bike (Post 21875913)

I've learned to be very cautious at all intersections and on roadways with a lot of places for potential of a Right-hook. One thing I do is take the lane at all intersections where I can do the same speed as the vehicles, this includes when I stop at a light/sign or when I approach a light that has just turned green and all cars are just starting to go; I'll find a spot to take the lane and ride thru the intersection and then FRAP as the speed picks up.

.

That is most often what I do. If there are potential left turners across the intersection I make an effort to position myself so those drivers can see me and I remain prepared to take evasive action. Box trucks, SUVs and other large vehicles may obscure us and make it so that the drivers across the intersection think they can hit the gap.

Paul Barnard 01-14-21 10:09 AM


Originally Posted by cubewheels (Post 21876869)
It's the right thing to do, unfortunately, in my city, A LOT of drivers gets fuming mad and honk forever if you do this, even if they can't actually pass you (everyone is moving at the same speed).

If I take the extreme side of the lane even though it's not as safe as taking the lane, the drivers will not object.

I take a very cooperative approach to interacting with motorists, but I will never sacrifice my safety to appease them. At times I make decisions to sacrifice my convenience for them, but never my safety.

billridesbikes 01-14-21 06:40 PM


Originally Posted by alo (Post 21875512)
You can say and do what you like with drivers, and you may get some reduction of these types of accidents. But to significantly reduce them, cyclists need to be aware of the dangers, and take precautions.

Dangerously incorrect.

Its really a system design fault where traffic planners and auto manufacturers have prioritized the movement of car traffic over all other roadway users. I think thing will change, but only one funeral at a time as the old planners die or retire and are replaced with some fresh thinking from younger people and real commitment “Vision Zero” and similar programs.

UCantTouchThis 01-14-21 07:04 PM


Originally Posted by alo (Post 21875512)
But to significantly reduce them, cyclists need to be aware of the dangers, and take precautions.

Exactly! I have put in about 70,000 miles in 23 years and never been hit. I ride everywhere, day and night. But I have a bud who has been hit like 10 times and it is always the driver's fault. I learned from running an overhead crane, do not put yourself in pinch points, you are not going to win!

cubewheels 01-14-21 07:14 PM


Originally Posted by Paul Barnard (Post 21877600)
I take a very cooperative approach to interacting with motorists, but I will never sacrifice my safety to appease them. At times I make decisions to sacrifice my convenience for them, but never my safety.

It's a little bit different here. More dangerous to annoy some motorists than being in the wrong place in the road.

Paul Barnard 01-15-21 07:25 AM


Originally Posted by cubewheels (Post 21878498)
It's a little bit different here. More dangerous to annoy some motorists than being in the wrong place in the road.

I hadn't considered it from that angle. Makes perfect sense.

alo 01-17-21 05:00 AM

Different people on this forum are from different countries. The key is to understand the culture/driving habits where you are and ride accordingly.

In Australia (where we drive on the left) when you want to turn right, you go to the middle of the road, and people will all pass you on the left, so you can safely turn right.

In S E Asia (where I am people drive on the right) when you want to turn left, if you go to the middle of the road, people will cross to the wrong side of the road, and overtake you on the left. To avoid being hit from behind when turning left, I have found putting your left arm out, lets them know, and they overtake you on the right. I met a European on a motor bike who put his left indicator on, and moved to the middle of the road. When he turned left, somebody trying to overtake him on the left, collided with him.

In S E Asia it is madness/chaos, not obeying road rules. The traffic has to go slow, because everyone else is so unpredictable. They can't see that if everybody obeyed the road rules, everybody would get there faster.

Comfort is King 01-17-21 05:59 AM

You absolutely have to take the lane at intersections. If you do find yourself on the right (in the US), be ready to take a hard right if someone's trying to turn. Never pass trucks on the right near an intersection. At busy, dangerous intersections I need to take a left on, sometimes I'll overshoot it, do a U-Turn when it's safe, then take a right. Better than sitting there in the middle of an intersection.

alo 01-17-21 06:11 AM


Originally Posted by Comfort is King (Post 21881651)
You absolutely have to take the lane at intersections. If you do find yourself on the right (in the US), be ready to take a hard right if someone's trying to turn. Never pass trucks on the right near an intersection. At busy, dangerous intersections I need to take a left on, sometimes I'll overshoot it, do a U-Turn when it's safe, then take a right. Better than sitting there in the middle of an intersection.

Someone could write a book of unwritten road rules. For example:

Never drive too close behind the vehicle in front.

Never drive in someone else's blind spot.

On a bicycle, to cross a busy road, it is sometimes easier/safer to go with the traffic, and when there is a break in the traffic coming the opposite direction, do a U turn.

marty.rheaume 01-19-21 11:39 AM

This is why I sold my road bike and bought a gravel bike. I'm just sick of the constant presence of danger.


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