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Inspired by "Wave of Death" discussion

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Inspired by "Wave of Death" discussion

Old 06-16-21, 09:47 AM
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Chuckles1
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Inspired by "Wave of Death" discussion

That was a good discussion. You hate to discourage people being "nice," but you gotta look out for number one. I sometimes accept their invitation, but only after taking a good look around; and when in doubt, I pull off the road and stop.

Another situation comes to mind, based on my road cycling in rural area. You're pedalling along, you see a car coming up behind, and instead of passing, it slows to your speed and tails you a short distance behind without turn signals on.

My mind says, what are you doing, why aren't you passing? Are you a nutjob, preparing your firearm to shoot me? Are you getting a beer bottle ready to throw at me? WTF are you doing?

It always turns out that they are turning into a driveway or street ahead, and think they're doing you a favor by not passing, even when they have plenty of time to pass and turn without slowing you down. If they'd just put on their turn signal, you could deduce their intent, but they rarely do.

Just a pet peeve that came to mind while commiserating with the Wave of Death discussion.
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Old 06-16-21, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Chuckles1 View Post
That was a good discussion. You hate to discourage people being "nice," but you gotta look out for number one. I sometimes accept their invitation, but only after taking a good look around; and when in doubt, I pull off the road and stop.

Another situation comes to mind, based on my road cycling in rural area. You're pedalling along, you see a car coming up behind, and instead of passing, it slows to your speed and tails you a short distance behind without turn signals on.

My mind says, what are you doing, why aren't you passing? Are you a nutjob, preparing your firearm to shoot me? Are you getting a beer bottle ready to throw at me? WTF are you doing?

It always turns out that they are turning into a driveway or street ahead, and think they're doing you a favor by not passing, even when they have plenty of time to pass and turn without slowing you down. If they'd just put on their turn signal, you could deduce their intent, but they rarely do.

Just a pet peeve that came to mind while commiserating with the Wave of Death discussion.

I never complain about someone not passing me, especially under that circumstance. I've had enough close calls with the real nutjobs who insist on crossing my path 2 feet or less in front of me without any warning. I guess you might have a point about not signaling, but I appreciate that the driver is erring on the side of caution and I don't think your peeve is really related to safety.

The real problem with the waving you on situation is that they wait for you to go, and you feel pressured to make the unsafe move because traffic is piling up behind them.
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Old 06-16-21, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Chuckles1 View Post
… It always turns out that they are turning into a driveway or street ahead, and think they're doing you a favor by not passing, even when they have plenty of time to pass and turn without slowing you down. If they'd just put on their turn signal, you could deduce their intent, but they rarely do…..
I think we all mis-perceive speed and distance from time to time.

When I am apprehensive about a vehicle behind me, I survey my situation to ensure I have 150 feet of no threats in front of me. I then look back with the hairy eyeball. I make sure they know I see them.

No guarantee they won’t do something I’ll regret, of course, but part of my driver communication practice.
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Old 06-16-21, 12:03 PM
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I love what the Varia Radar does for my situational awareness.
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Old 06-16-21, 04:08 PM
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There’s a lot of variety in behavior out there by motorists, pedestrians and cyclists.

This afternoon on a residential street I was passed slowly by a pickup about 200 feet from a stop sign. The driver was signaling a right turn and pointing right. These overtly mean “don’t pass me on the right” but he slowed way down and I think he was telling me to pass him on the right. I just lined up directly behind him and he finally turned.

Lots of variety out there.
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Old 06-17-21, 06:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Chuckles1 View Post
Another situation comes to mind, based on my road cycling in rural area. You're pedalling along, you see a car coming up behind, and instead of passing, it slows to your speed and tails you a short distance behind without turn signals on.
I find this a bit unnerving too, especially when the car has plenty of room to get around. Sometimes, I understand it, like when I'm climbing a hill and the car can't see over the hill, but on flats I wish they'd just go around.
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Old 06-17-21, 07:13 AM
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Most drivers are terrible at judging speed and distance of cyclists so if I had to choose, I prefer this over the driver who passes you then immediately turns in front of you.
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Old 06-17-21, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Milton Keynes View Post
I find this a bit unnerving too, especially when the car has plenty of room to get around. Sometimes, I understand it, like when I'm climbing a hill and the car can't see over the hill, but on flats I wish they'd just go around.

I'm seeing this as a really petty complaint. Around the parts I ride, "too patient" drivers are never a problem.
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Old 06-17-21, 10:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Milton Keynes View Post
I find this a bit unnerving too, especially when the car has plenty of room to get around. Sometimes, I understand it, like when I'm climbing a hill and the car can't see over the hill, but on flats I wish they'd just go around.
I do, too, mostly because I feel pressured to pull over and let them pass.

(And I don't know that it's "too patient" so much as "back there plotting all the ways they're going to kill me." Especially on one road I ride often, where the problem is that it's a double yellow. Drivers think they can't pass... so they just hang out behind me until I can pull over to the side.)
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Old 06-18-21, 07:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Kat12 View Post
I do, too, mostly because I feel pressured to pull over and let them pass.

(And I don't know that it's "too patient" so much as "back there plotting all the ways they're going to kill me." Especially on one road I ride often, where the problem is that it's a double yellow. Drivers think they can't pass... so they just hang out behind me until I can pull over to the side.)

The problem as I see it is not in how they're behaving, it's in how you're perceiving it. In my state (and I think this is the rule in almost all of them), the driver is supposed to go slow until such time as they can pass safely. My job, according to the law, is to ride as far right as practicable, not pull over. So, if they believe it isn't safe to pass, they will wait. I have to assume that the driver is in a better position to determine whether they can safely cross the double line, and that's their call, not mine. Basically, the fear that they're back there plotting is completely irrational. Why would they need to plot this? If they wanted to kill you, they'd just kill you. Also, I've never found drivers to be shy about laying on the horn if they think you're somehow obstructing them by doing it wrong

I've been in situations where I was almost killed by a car in the oncoming lane having to swerve because the jerk behind me chose to hurry up across the double line to pass me. Trust me, there's a lot more real danger in THAT situation.

So, yes, I'd very much appreciate it if you folks didn't tell drivers to err on the side of speeding up their passes just because you're uncomfortable feeling like you're slowing traffic. Geez, I never thought I'd see A&S turn into a place to complain about drivers not being sufficiently aggressive! The wave issue is decidedly different than this because it turns into a "nice" demand that you do something unsafe. But if you feel like you want to pull over in the slow car behind you scenario as a matter of courtesy, go ahead, but that's your call. The driver is doing NOTHING wrong.
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Old 06-18-21, 07:41 AM
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I think you're blowing it way out of proportion. I only wonder why they're hanging back when it's a flat straight road and they can easily pass. Not that I think they're plotting my demise, but I just want them to get around me and go about their day and I'll go about mine. Like I said, I understand when I'm pushing up a hill and they can't see over it, but there's no reason to hang back on flat straightaways, unless they're a driver who's not used to encountering bicycles on country roads. .
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Old 06-18-21, 09:12 AM
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I once had a driver follow three of us for 3 km on the right lane, even though the centre lane was empty for most of that 3 km and she could easily have changed lanes at any time to pass us. She was making a right turn, it turned out. So, yeah, we wondered what the heck she was doing. I even waved for her to move left to pass. But hope. We weren't unnerved or anything, but maybe annoyed.
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Old 06-18-21, 09:49 AM
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Plotting my demise was humor, but with a core of reality. It's more a safety issue, as a driver tailing me makes me feel obligated to stay close to the edge of pavement, which is often broken and rough, and makes it difficult to keep a tight line. So yes, a real safety concern. I prefer riding the smoothest track in my lane, and the tailing driver takes that away needlessly. When I'm driving a car, I try to get past bikes as quickly as I can safely do so, to minimize the time the bike rider has to be concerned with me. I appreciate drivers who do the same.
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Old 06-18-21, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Milton Keynes View Post
I think you're blowing it way out of proportion. I only wonder why they're hanging back when it's a flat straight road and they can easily pass. Not that I think they're plotting my demise, but I just want them to get around me and go about their day and I'll go about mine. Like I said, I understand when I'm pushing up a hill and they can't see over it, but there's no reason to hang back on flat straightaways, unless they're a driver who's not used to encountering bicycles on country roads. .

In which case, I'd rather they be over-cautious rather than try to "shoot the gap".

I think we're agreeing that it's a minor annoyance at worst.
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Old 06-18-21, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Chuckles1 View Post
Plotting my demise was humor, but with a core of reality. It's more a safety issue, as a driver tailing me makes me feel obligated to stay close to the edge of pavement, which is often broken and rough, and makes it difficult to keep a tight line. So yes, a real safety concern. I prefer riding the smoothest track in my lane, and the tailing driver takes that away needlessly. When I'm driving a car, I try to get past bikes as quickly as I can safely do so, to minimize the time the bike rider has to be concerned with me. I appreciate drivers who do the same.
The safety issue is all inside your head.

Nobody can make you feel obligated to do something unsafe but you, so the real safety concern would be your susceptibility to acting on this feeling of guilt. The tailing driver isn't forcing you out of the smooth track in this situation. When someone close passes to do a turn or whatever, then it does actually force you into the "impracticable" right margin and that is an external threat to your safety. Keep your straight line and let the car behind you figure it out. It's the driver's job to figure out when to safely pass, Your only job is to keep the line you consider "practicable". You are most definitely not required to do something you consider unsafe in order to avoid slowing traffic a bit.

Keep in mind, what you do as a driver may not seem safe to another driver operating a vehicle differently than you do.
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Old 06-18-21, 10:32 AM
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99 times out of 100 they are being more cautious than the norm. Occasionally they are up to something, like spooling up the turbo to lay down some smoke or waiting for a chance to surprise you with a horn blast or letting their rage grow so they can belt out a good scream when they pass. It's the rare but memorable one out of a hundred that makes the others uncomfortable.
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Old 06-18-21, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by downtube42 View Post
99 times out of 100 they are being more cautious than the norm. Occasionally they are up to something, like spooling up the turbo to lay down some smoke or waiting for a chance to surprise you with a horn blast or letting their rage grow so they can belt out a good scream when they pass. It's the rare but memorable one out of a hundred that makes the others uncomfortable.

I have never noticed the people who do that sort of stuff EVER slow down beforehand, and I live in an area quite notorious for harassment. Generally, I experience an incident like that approximately once every 100 miles, and I ride about 175-225 miles per week.

Being uncomfortable is not a real safety concern. btw.
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Old 06-18-21, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
The problem as I see it is not in how they're behaving, it's in how you're perceiving it. In my state (and I think this is the rule in almost all of them), the driver is supposed to go slow until such time as they can pass safely. My job, according to the law, is to ride as far right as practicable, not pull over. So, if they believe it isn't safe to pass, they will wait. I have to assume that the driver is in a better position to determine whether they can safely cross the double line, and that's their call, not mine. Basically, the fear that they're back there plotting is completely irrational. Why would they need to plot this? If they wanted to kill you, they'd just kill you. Also, I've never found drivers to be shy about laying on the horn if they think you're somehow obstructing them by doing it wrong

I've been in situations where I was almost killed by a car in the oncoming lane having to swerve because the jerk behind me chose to hurry up across the double line to pass me. Trust me, there's a lot more real danger in THAT situation.

So, yes, I'd very much appreciate it if you folks didn't tell drivers to err on the side of speeding up their passes just because you're uncomfortable feeling like you're slowing traffic. Geez, I never thought I'd see A&S turn into a place to complain about drivers not being sufficiently aggressive! The wave issue is decidedly different than this because it turns into a "nice" demand that you do something unsafe. But if you feel like you want to pull over in the slow car behind you scenario as a matter of courtesy, go ahead, but that's your call. The driver is doing NOTHING wrong.
Where did I tell drivers to speed up their passes? Where did I say they were doing anything wrong? I only pointed out that it's a drag being stuck behind me going 15mph at most, especially since the road markings make drivers think they're not allowed to pass even if there's not another car for miles, and that just because someone isn't passing doesn't mean they're "being patient"-- it just means they're not passing.


Originally Posted by Chuckles1 View Post
Plotting my demise was humor, but with a core of reality. It's more a safety issue, as a driver tailing me makes me feel obligated to stay close to the edge of pavement, which is often broken and rough, and makes it difficult to keep a tight line.
That's the other problem on the road I mention. It's marked as a sharrow. Unfortunately, it also has a wide "parking lane" on either side that most perceive to be a bike lane. Cyclists often ride in it, but, as it's a parking lane, often must go into the actual lane to pass parked cars, or in sections where the pavement is crappy, or there are a couple parts where it disappears completely (as under an overpass, for example), so cyclists can't stay in that lane 100% of the time even if they want to.
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Old 06-18-21, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Kat12 View Post
I do, too, mostly because I feel pressured to pull over and let them pass.

(And I don't know that it's "too patient" so much as "back there plotting all the ways they're going to kill me." Especially on one road I ride often, where the problem is that it's a double yellow. Drivers think they can't pass... so they just hang out behind me until I can pull over to the side.)
Originally Posted by Kat12 View Post
1) Where did I tell drivers to speed up their passes?

2) Where did I say they were doing anything wrong? I only pointed out that it's a drag being stuck behind me going 15mph at most, especially since the road markings make drivers think they're not allowed to pass even if there's not another car for miles, and that just because someone isn't passing doesn't mean they're "being patient"-- it just means they're not passing.
1) I said telling them to "err on the side of speeding up their passes." There will be errors in either passing too slow or too fast. All I meant by this is I really don't appreciate you telling drivers that passing too slow is an actual problem for us as cyclists. The last thing I want is drivers thinking we want them to pass faster and closer.

2) Seriously? You suggested they're behind us plotting how to kill us. I'd put that down as wrong.

This forum is Advocacy and Safety. You've already admitted that the drivers aren't doing anything to make us unsafe here, and to the extent that you're telling drivers we don't ever want to have a car behind us reluctant to pass, it's horrendously bad advocacy.

If there's no external displays of horns, engine gunning, yelling, throwing things, whatever, then I think it's perfectly reasonable that the driver is "patiently" waiting for the opportunity to pass. You want to pull over to allow it, that's up to you. If not, then don't complain because the driver is trying to drive responsibly.
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Old 06-18-21, 10:24 PM
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
1) I said telling them to "err on the side of speeding up their passes." There will be errors in either passing too slow or too fast. All I meant by this is I really don't appreciate you telling drivers that passing too slow is an actual problem for us as cyclists. The last thing I want is drivers thinking we want them to pass faster and closer.

2) Seriously? You suggested they're behind us plotting how to kill us. I'd put that down as wrong.

This forum is Advocacy and Safety. You've already admitted that the drivers aren't doing anything to make us unsafe here, and to the extent that you're telling drivers we don't ever want to have a car behind us reluctant to pass, it's horrendously bad advocacy.

If there's no external displays of horns, engine gunning, yelling, throwing things, whatever, then I think it's perfectly reasonable that the driver is "patiently" waiting for the opportunity to pass. You want to pull over to allow it, that's up to you. If not, then don't complain because the driver is trying to drive responsibly.
You're putting an awful lot of words into my mouth, but whatever makes you happy.

1. I have no idea what you're talking about. So if they pass, it's an error? They're just supposed to putz along behind a slow cyclist forever? And you're going to criticize a cyclist who pulls over to allow them to pass because they're too afraid to do so normally?

2. You've heard of "sarcasm," right? Did you seriously think I literally meant they were planning murder? (And really? In your world, people either fly off the handle with their emotions or don't have any? Nobody ever puts on a calm exterior over inner turmoil?)
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Old 06-19-21, 12:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Kat12 View Post
You're putting an awful lot of words into my mouth, but whatever makes you happy.

1. I have no idea what you're talking about. So if they pass, it's an error? They're just supposed to putz along behind a slow cyclist forever? And you're going to criticize a cyclist who pulls over to allow them to pass because they're too afraid to do so normally?

2. You've heard of "sarcasm," right? Did you seriously think I literally meant they were planning murder? (And really? In your world, people either fly off the handle with their emotions or don't have any? Nobody ever puts on a calm exterior over inner turmoil?)

Look, you've obviously mistaken advocacy and safety for "air your petty imaginary grievances". Why in the wide world of sports do you think you have the slightest insight into a driver's " inner turmoil?" You made a big deal arguing with the word "patient", so there's no reason to assume you weren't serious about worrying about drivers' intent.

If you really can't handle the thought that someone driving might have bad thoughts about you, get counseling immediately. The drivers stopped at the intersection at the stop sign might not be patient either.

I don't care if you pull over. I've never been in a situation where a driver didn't figure out how to do the pass within a half mile or so, and I'm skeptical that you have either. I do care that your op clearly implied that drivers are doing something wrong when they won't pass in a situation that makes that uncomfortable for them. You've back pedaled enough from that to the point you're really not saying much of anything.

This is a really stupid thread.

BTW, I'm rather amazed you don't understand the concept of erring on the side of caution. Life's too short to explain something that basic to you.

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