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A terrible loss

Old 08-18-21, 06:40 AM
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boozergut
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A terrible loss

My cousin lost her outstanding husband to a distracted driver Saturday. Raise a toast to Clint if you can. https://www.kait8.com/2021/08/18/cyc...YujixASrugBak0

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Old 08-18-21, 07:14 AM
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Sorry for your family's loss.
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Old 08-18-21, 08:15 AM
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yes, sorry for your family's loss. wishing you all strength right now & nothing but the best memories
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Old 08-18-21, 09:21 AM
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My condolences to you and your family also.

We have to get over the idea that accidents "just happen". I use to be a impatient driver for things that slowed me down. There isn't any excuse for that mindset I had and sometimes still have.
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Old 08-18-21, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Iride01 View Post
We have to get over the idea that accidents "just happen".
We need to stop calling them accidents in the first place. An accident implies no one was at fault. The NHTSA found that 94% of crashes are due to human error.
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Old 08-18-21, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by JW Fas View Post
We need to stop calling them accidents in the first place. An accident implies no one was at fault. The NHTSA found that 94% of crashes are due to human error.
It seems to be a fad that people view accidents as being no ones fault. But the many court cases and rulings on accidents will show that there is fault to be assigned.

While in the truest sense of the word, accidents might be unavoidable, it still doesn't leave someone blameless.
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Old 08-18-21, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by JW Fas View Post
We need to stop calling them accidents in the first place. An accident implies no one was at fault. The NHTSA found that 94% of crashes are due to human error.
Did the NHSTA make any statement about stop calling them accidents in order to reduce such incidents?
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Old 08-19-21, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Iride01 View Post
It seems to be a fad that people view accidents as being no ones fault. But the many court cases and rulings on accidents will show that there is fault to be assigned.

While in the truest sense of the word, accidents might be unavoidable, it still doesn't leave someone blameless.
Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
Did the NHSTA make any statement about stop calling them accidents in order to reduce such incidents?

Yeah, I don't get where the idea that "crash" implies fault and "accident" does not comes from, neither word implies anything about fault or the absence of fault.

The NTSB calls what it does "accident investigation". If the word accident implies it's just something that happens, that would be an oxymoron. The whole point of such investigation is to try to determine the cause of the accident in order to learn how to prevent recurrences.

BTW, I think that if we get too fixed on assigning blame on individual drivers, we're likely to miss more systemic and faulty design causes.
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Old 08-20-21, 10:20 PM
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Sorry for your loss. Hope they can raise a huge amount for the family's need.
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Old 08-23-21, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by JW Fas View Post
We need to stop calling them accidents in the first place. An accident implies no one was at fault. The NHTSA found that 94% of crashes are due to human error.
Will calling them something else stop them from happening?
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Old 08-23-21, 05:27 PM
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So sad, what a tragic loss.

The news pic doesn't help. Shows 4 guys not in the shoulder.....
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Old 08-24-21, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by GamblerGORD53 View Post
The news pic doesn't help. Shows 4 guys not in the shoulder.....
???

In the US, cyclists are (generally) not required to ride in the shoulder. Also, in the US, there is no requirement for shoulders to be safe to ride in.

In any case, drivers are required not to be distracted and not to run into cyclists (wherever they are in the road).
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Old 08-24-21, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by boozergut View Post
My cousin lost her outstanding husband to a distracted driver Saturday. Raise a toast to Clint if you can. https://www.kait8.com/2021/08/18/cyc...YujixASrugBak0
My heart goes out to you and your family you are in my prayers.
God bless.
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Old 08-25-21, 05:57 AM
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
Yeah, I don't get where the idea that "crash" implies fault and "accident" does not comes from, neither word implies anything about fault or the absence of fault.

.

What is a connotation Alex?

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/connotation

One connotation of accident is something that has an element of being unavoidable.

Don't argue with me, argue with those that penned the content of the hundreds of links that come up when you Google "calling accidents crashes."

You are welcome!
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Old 08-25-21, 06:05 AM
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Originally Posted by boozergut View Post
My cousin lost her outstanding husband to a distracted driver Saturday. Raise a toast to Clint if you can. https://www.kait8.com/2021/08/18/cyc...YujixASrugBak0

I am so very sorry for the senseless loss of your family. Clint, here's to perpetual downhills my riding brother.

This is Highway 18 east of Dell

https://www.google.com/maps/@35.8727...7i13312!8i6656

Here's another write up on the crash.

https://www.kait8.com/2021/08/15/one...hway-18-crash/

It sounds like the crash occurred on the shoulder, but I can't be certain from the very poorly written piece.
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Old 08-25-21, 07:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Paul Barnard View Post
What is a connotation Alex?

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/connotation

One connotation of accident is something that has an element of being unavoidable.

Don't argue with me, argue with those that penned the content of the hundreds of links that come up when you Google "calling accidents crashes."

You are welcome!
What is gratuitous dictionary abuse, as-yet unnamed successor to Alex?

That is a completely lame argument. Words have multiple meanings and connotations are derived largely from context. One of the connotations of "crash" is the stock price dropped dramatically, or someone's drug abuse has finally caught up with them. Should we not use that word to describe incidents where cars strike bicyclists because people might be confused by its multiple meanings? And, just as an aside "unavoidable crash" is not an oxymoron, neither is "avoidable accident".

I am arguing with the hundreds of links that get this wrong and you--"accident" is a broad term, and does not necessarily imply anything about fault or inevitability. And don't argue with me about it, argue with the NTSB:

https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/...ntReports.aspx

Pretty silly of them to investigate the causes of things that can't be avoided in order to learn how to avoid them, huh?

BTW, thunder "crashes". You want to explain how that is avoidable?

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Old 08-25-21, 07:24 AM
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
What is gratuitous dictionary abuse, as-yet unnamed successor to Alex?

That is a completely lame argument. Words have multiple meanings and connotations are derived largely from context. One of the connotations of "crash" is the stock price dropped dramatically, or someone's drug abuse has finally caught up with them. Should we not use that word to describe incidents where cars strike bicyclists because people might be confused by its multiple meanings? And, just as an aside "unavoidable crash" is not an oxymoron, neither is "avoidable accident".

I am arguing with the hundreds of links that get this wrong and you--"accident" is a broad term, and does not necessarily imply anything about fault or inevitability. And don't argue with me about it, argue with the NTSB:

https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/...ntReports.aspx

Pretty silly of them to investigate the causes of things that can't be avoided in order to learn how to avoid them, huh?

BTW, thunder "crashes". You want to explain how that is avoidable?

Go argue with the legal firms on those Google links!

Let me ask you this. Has there been a gravitation away from the use of the word accident, and toward crash with the NHSTA? Hint, "Uniform Crash Report." More hints "CISS" "CRSS."
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Old 08-25-21, 07:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Paul Barnard View Post
Go argue with the legal firms on those Google links!

Let me ask you this. Has there been a gravitation away from the use of the word accident, and toward crash with the NHSTA? Hint, "Uniform Crash Report." More hints "CISS" "CRSS."

I get that there are people buying this stupid argument, it doesn't make it right. Ultimately, this is the "shuffling deck chairs on the Titanic" strategy.

NY state made the terminology change several years ago, got any evidence that people's attitudes towards driver responsibility has changed one whit in NY as a result?

This is just about picking another word to spur people to talk about it, making preposterous claims about the meaning of the words in order to justify that just undermines the credibility of the person advocating that way.

If "crash" becomes the dominant word, I fully expect we'll be discussing its replacement about 10 years later. Relabeling is what you do when you're not making progress on the issue.
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Old 08-25-21, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
What is gratuitous dictionary abuse, as-yet unnamed successor to Alex?

That is a completely lame argument. Words have multiple meanings and connotations are derived largely from context. One of the connotations of "crash" is the stock price dropped dramatically, or someone's drug abuse has finally caught up with them. Should we not use that word to describe incidents where cars strike bicyclists because people might be confused by its multiple meanings? And, just as an aside "unavoidable crash" is not an oxymoron, neither is "avoidable accident".

I am arguing with the hundreds of links that get this wrong and you--"accident" is a broad term, and does not necessarily imply anything about fault or inevitability. And don't argue with me about it, argue with the NTSB:

https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/...ntReports.aspx

Pretty silly of them to investigate the causes of things that can't be avoided in order to learn how to avoid them, huh?

BTW, thunder "crashes". You want to explain how that is avoidable?
What is wrong with you?
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Old 08-27-21, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark Stone View Post
Will calling them something else stop them from happening?
This represents a classic example of deflection intended to derail the conversation and not offer anything constructive. Guess what? Enacting actual laws or amending existing ones won't stop the act(s) in question from happening. We should just abolish the laws then, right?

When the norm is to refer to crashes/collisions as "accidents" it reflects our cultural attitude towards these things. The level of seriousness we hold for something is indicated by the common language we use to describe it. The term "accident" allows people write these things off under the "**** happens" category and does nothing to address the fact we have a serious problem. Over 40k Americans got killed by automobiles last year, which is more than firearm deaths. In this country that's really saying something. Dismissive responses like yours offer nothing helpful.
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Old 08-28-21, 01:44 AM
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Sincere condolences :(

Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
Yeah, I don't get where the idea that "crash" implies fault and "accident" does not comes from, neither word implies anything about fault or the absence of fault.

The NTSB calls what it does "accident investigation". If the word accident implies it's just something that happens, that would be an oxymoron. The whole point of such investigation is to try to determine the cause of the accident in order to learn how to prevent recurrences.

BTW, I think that if we get too fixed on assigning blame on individual drivers, we're likely to miss more systemic and faulty design causes.
The San Francisco Police Department has stopped using the word in their incident reports. Kudos to them. The "A" word definitely implies lack of responsibility. To do something "accidentally" indicates it wasn't intended or expected. It also applies to external forces. "He came out of nowhere" is a common refrain from irresponsible and/or incompetent drivers. They're the ones who have ZERO peripheral vision and haven't checked a mirror since their morning bathroom break!

The word's meaning and connotations act to immediately release the driver of any responsibility. It biases the discussion before anyone has said another word. It's like the big, bad mean world is just doing EVERYTHING in it's power to trip up drivers! The poor things!

Well, this couldn't be FURTHER from the truth! Drivers are an excellent example of habitual law-breakers and an entitled class. I see so many people breaking the law on their phones behind the wheel, I've lost hope for humanity. Especially the parents driving around the kids elementary school on the phone. And then there's endemic speeding. On the freeway, on the street, on the highway, you name it! Oh and stop signs? Don't get me started!!!!

Drivers have been told, if something happens, it SURELY isn't your fault! You insurance company BEGS you to NEVER SAY SORRY!

In other words, driver behavior makes them culpable. The irresponsible CHOICES they make to break the law, endanger others and themselves mean they aren't passive victims of "uncontrollable circumstances." Their very actions lead to terrible outcomes. And the words we use to describe these terrible outcomes have impact. They affect the mindset. They influence FUTURE driving behavior and future drivers.

Catching the trend here?

I obviously feel VERY strongly about this issue. Please reconsider using another better word such as crash, collision or incident. The "A" word should be left in the dust bin.

PS Oh and who knows the origins of the word "jaywalking?" Well, just ANOTHER example of how the human landscape and legal system has been altered to the advantage of drivers. People used to joyfully walk the urban landscape without a care in the world. Then the automobile came along and relegated people to the margins. Doing what everyone did for millennia was suddenly illegal. Interesting.

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Old 08-28-21, 04:07 AM
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Originally Posted by LV2TNDM View Post
The San Francisco Police Department has stopped using the word in their incident reports. Kudos to them. The "A" word definitely implies lack of responsibility. To do something "accidentally" indicates it wasn't intended or expected. It also applies to external forces. "He came out of nowhere" is a common refrain from irresponsible and/or incompetent drivers. They're the ones who have ZERO peripheral vision and haven't checked a mirror since their morning bathroom break!

The word's meaning and connotations act to immediately release the driver of any responsibility. It biases the discussion before anyone has said another word. It's like the big, bad mean world is just doing EVERYTHING in it's power to trip up drivers! The poor things!

Well, this couldn't be FURTHER from the truth! Drivers are an excellent example of habitual law-breakers and an entitled class. I see so many people breaking the law on their phones behind the wheel, I've lost hope for humanity. Especially the parents driving around the kids elementary school on the phone. And then there's endemic speeding. On the freeway, on the street, on the highway, you name it! Oh and stop signs? Don't get me started!!!!

Drivers have been told, if something happens, it SURELY isn't your fault! You insurance company BEGS you to NEVER SAY SORRY!

In other words, driver behavior makes them culpable. The irresponsible CHOICES they make to break the law, endanger others and themselves mean they aren't passive victims of "uncontrollable circumstances." Their very actions lead to terrible outcomes. And the words we use to describe these terrible outcomes have impact. They affect the mindset. They influence FUTURE driving behavior and future drivers.

Catching the trend here?

I obviously feel VERY strongly about this issue. Please reconsider using another better word such as crash, collision or incident. The "A" word should be left in the dust bin.

PS Oh and who knows the origins of the word "jaywalking?" Well, just ANOTHER example of how the human landscape and legal system has been altered to the advantage of drivers. People used to joyfully walk the urban landscape without a care in the world. Then the automobile came along and relegated people to the margins. Doing what everyone did for millennia was suddenly illegal. Interesting.

Are you writing a parody? People didn't "joyfully walk the urban landscape" pre-automobile because the streets were so full of horse and human crap and roads were so poorly controlled that crossing them was always a high risk. People were killed by horses and carts and later street cars and trains in large numbers. Leave the history out of it because you obviously have no clue there. A 19th century city was a far more dangerous place than a 21st century city.

Where this ridiculous argument falls apart and turns into the ineffective and absurd brow-beating so beautifully exhibited above is that you cannot give a single plausible reason why using the "better" words will do a single thing to change people's minds. "Crash, collision or incident" do not convey anything about responsibility that "accident" does not. Changing the terms for completely bogus reasons about word usage is so obviously an empty virtue-signalling gesture that ranting as you do here just makes the advocate look silly.

If you really want to adopt a term that conveys what's going on here, I'm all in. You want to adopt something evocative of the real tragedy? Pick a really better term. How about "person/people hit by car/truck" or "vehicular killing and maiming"? If that's too long, how about "vehicular slaughter"?

" Crash" and "collision" don't even refer to people at all, and cover everything from a minor fender bender to ramming a full school bus into a gas truck. "Incident" is even worse than "accident" as it doesn't even convey any sense of misadventure. "Incidental" implies insignificance.

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Old 08-30-21, 07:45 AM
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The ghost bike turned out well.
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Old 08-30-21, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by boozergut View Post

the ghost bike turned out well.
:,0(
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Old 08-30-21, 11:26 PM
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Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
???

In the US, cyclists are (generally) not required to ride in the shoulder. Also, in the US, there is no requirement for shoulders to be safe to ride in.

In any case, drivers are required not to be distracted and not to run into cyclists (wherever they are in the road).
What a crock. This is why I have a NECESSARY HB mounted mirror. I still don't catch them all in time. Just in my last 2 century rides, no less than TEN truck loads of 12 foot+ went by. 8 were there manufactured homes on flatbeds. If I wasn't at the very right of these 8' shoulders, on 2 lane secondary highways, I could have been dead 6 times.
Very seldom are there NOT wide loads going by.
Plus yesterday, 3 cars/ Jeep were passing others, coming towards me at 90 mph closing speed. I think 2 were on narrower shoulder parts. I didn't see the Jeep until it was 20 feet in front.

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