Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Advocacy & Safety
Reload this Page >

What's Wrong With This Picture?

Notices
Advocacy & Safety Cyclists should expect and demand safe accommodation on every public road, just as do all other users. Discuss your bicycle advocacy and safety concerns here.

What's Wrong With This Picture?

Old 09-07-21, 04:02 PM
  #51  
mschwett 
please no more flats
 
Join Date: May 2021
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 1,021

Bikes: aethos, creo, vanmoof, public ...

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 560 Post(s)
Liked 647 Times in 359 Posts
Originally Posted by SteveG23 View Post
"Counterintuitive" is an understatement. The bike lanes should be adjacent to vehicle traffic, not between parked cars and the curb. This way, people have to exit cars and walk across the lane where bicycles are whizzing by, to get to the curb. I expect lawsuits arising from the big safety risk to children and to elderly and disabled passengers.
no.

cycle tracks / bike lanes are safer when buffered from traffic, preferably by an island but parking also works, provided adequate clearances. bike lanes between parking and traffic are crossed by everyone who needs to park, and routinely double parked in for motorists convenience. much, much harder to do when the bike lane is inboard of the parking. finally, depending on the destination, either the majority or vast majority of cars only have a driver, not a driver and a passenger, reducing the bike-lane-side conflict measurably. the problems with the dayton design are in the details, not the concept.

obviously, a street with no parking and fully separated bike and vehicular lanes would be preferable in some ways - but the traffic calming effects of parking and loading should also be considered.

a lot of american cities have these bike lanes, which are a bit of a compromise but a big jump in safety from sharrows or a bike line with driver-side-doors on one side and moving traffic on the other. they work pretty well, even in this example with standard parking meters rather than kiosks. the parking zone also makes a nice space for bike share infrastructure out of the way of the sidewalk.

mschwett is offline  
Likes For mschwett:
Old 09-07-21, 04:05 PM
  #52  
mschwett 
please no more flats
 
Join Date: May 2021
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 1,021

Bikes: aethos, creo, vanmoof, public ...

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 560 Post(s)
Liked 647 Times in 359 Posts
Originally Posted by SteveG23 View Post
I didn't suggest eliminating the safety lane in between.
how safe is the "safety lane" if every car parking or exiting the parking has to cross it? and even worse, unlike driveways or intersections, parallel parking requires coming to a complete stop, and then reversing.
mschwett is offline  
Likes For mschwett:
Old 09-07-21, 06:29 PM
  #53  
Daniel4
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Toronto
Posts: 3,261

Bikes: Sekine 1979 ten speed racer

Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1369 Post(s)
Liked 516 Times in 347 Posts
Originally Posted by mschwett View Post
no.

cycle tracks / bike lanes are safer when buffered from traffic, preferably by an island but parking also works, provided adequate clearances. bike lanes between parking and traffic are crossed by everyone who needs to park, and routinely double parked in for motorists convenience. much, much harder to do when the bike lane is inboard of the parking. finally, depending on the destination, either the majority or vast majority of cars only have a driver, not a driver and a passenger, reducing the bike-lane-side conflict measurably. the problems with the dayton design are in the details, not the concept.

obviously, a street with no parking and fully separated bike and vehicular lanes would be preferable in some ways - but the traffic calming effects of parking and loading should also be considered.

a lot of american cities have these bike lanes, which are a bit of a compromise but a big jump in safety from sharrows or a bike line with driver-side-doors on one side and moving traffic on the other. they work pretty well, even in this example with standard parking meters rather than kiosks. the parking zone also makes a nice space for bike share infrastructure out of the way of the sidewalk.

100%

I prefer bike lanes between parked cars and the curb. The worse that can happen is you smash into a passenger getting out of the car without looking.

Whereas if the car has to cross the bike lane to park, the risk is if the driver is racing you and cuts you off or if he parallel parks, you're forced into car traffic to get by.
Daniel4 is offline  
Old 09-07-21, 06:30 PM
  #54  
livedarklions
High Performance Noodler
 
livedarklions's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 13,987

Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM

Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7333 Post(s)
Liked 7,579 Times in 4,255 Posts
Originally Posted by SteveG23 View Post
My concern is the ability of passengers getting out of cars to be able to reach the sidewalk safely, without crossing any moving traffic - including bicycle traffic. The safety zone between the car and the bike lane, on either side of the car, provides a buffer so the car door isn't opened in the bicycles' way, providing a degree of safety for both; if it's on the driver's side but the car is parked against the curb, the driver can then walk around the car to the curb without crossing traffic.

Car passengers who will be getting out of the curb side of the car on city streets include small children, the elderly, and the disabled, whom you won't find on bicycles in this environment. The Dayton system places their needs far behind those of bicyclists'. Think of a blind person, or one in a wheelchair, having to get out of the car and then cross between the gaps in bicycles, rather than having direct access to the sidewalk. I know my elderly mother-in-law, who has all her senses but walks very slowly and has issues with balance, would be terrified. She just wouldn't go downtown.

Yes, it would be lovely if every road could have a truly separated bicycle lane, but that's not realistic - there generally isn't room (or funding). In the Dayton situation apparently they decided there was both, but I think they got their priorities wrong.

Sorry, but this is complete nonsense. Crossing a bike lane just isn't dangerous.
​​​​
livedarklions is offline  
Old 09-08-21, 09:41 AM
  #55  
rsbob 
Sniveling Weasel
 
rsbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: Seattle-ish
Posts: 3,397
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1272 Post(s)
Liked 2,406 Times in 1,400 Posts
Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
The Dayton layout was the subject of the OP and was described there.
Maybe there is a plan to replace the meters or erect physical barriers to prevent motor vehicles from parking alongside the meters at the curb; but until such time as that occurs, anyone expecting motorists to not notice the presence of parking meters alongside the curb and to ignore the standard parking procedure in their presence throughout the U.S and elsewhere, may be smoking something funny, under the influence, or may be even considered ignorant in some quarters.
You nailed it. In grad school I studied Human Factors engineering. That is the study of how people can quickly and readily adapt to a new environment by designs which are intuitive and function well. What you proposed is exactly my solution to the confusion created by their bad design. The buffer area between bike lane and the cars is necessary to keep car doors from being opened into cyclists and to provide a safe waiting zone for a drivers waiting for traffic to clear before going to their door. That is the only smart part of their design.
__________________
Beikforoom Cyclist ďNo regertsĒ 🚴🏾‍♂️





rsbob is offline  
Old 09-08-21, 10:26 AM
  #56  
noisebeam
Arizona Dessert
 
noisebeam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: AZ
Posts: 15,030

Bikes: Cannondale SuperSix, Lemond Poprad. Retired: Jamis Sputnik, Centurion LeMans Fixed, Diamond Back ascent ex

Mentioned: 76 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5343 Post(s)
Liked 2,164 Times in 1,286 Posts
Originally Posted by mschwett View Post

Is this an example of how not to do it? Looks like a blind right hook trap - these type of designs encourage thoughtful cyclists to ride in the shared travel lanes.
noisebeam is offline  
Old 09-08-21, 12:26 PM
  #57  
I-Like-To-Bike
Been Around Awhile
 
I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 29,359

Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked 1,092 Times in 724 Posts
Originally Posted by noisebeam View Post
Is this an example of how not to do it? Looks like a blind right hook trap - these type of designs encourage thoughtful cyclists to ride in the shared travel lanes.
No doubt that some people proud of being openly hostile to cyclists would describe (and perhaps even post on social media) thoughtful cyclists who ride in travel lanes despite the presence of adjacent parallel bike lanes, regardless of legality or reason, as "ignorant" cyclists.
I-Like-To-Bike is offline  
Old 09-08-21, 01:32 PM
  #58  
livedarklions
High Performance Noodler
 
livedarklions's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 13,987

Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM

Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7333 Post(s)
Liked 7,579 Times in 4,255 Posts
Originally Posted by noisebeam View Post
Is this an example of how not to do it? Looks like a blind right hook trap - these type of designs encourage thoughtful cyclists to ride in the shared travel lanes.

This is the kind of thing that makes me skeptical of bike lanes generally. There's always somewhere where the "protection" breaks down and I think it's too easy to cruise fast past that driveway and not even realize it's there.
livedarklions is offline  
Old 09-08-21, 01:46 PM
  #59  
noisebeam
Arizona Dessert
 
noisebeam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: AZ
Posts: 15,030

Bikes: Cannondale SuperSix, Lemond Poprad. Retired: Jamis Sputnik, Centurion LeMans Fixed, Diamond Back ascent ex

Mentioned: 76 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5343 Post(s)
Liked 2,164 Times in 1,286 Posts
Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
No doubt that some people proud of being openly hostile to cyclists would describe (and perhaps even post on social media) thoughtful cyclists who ride in travel lanes despite the presence of adjacent parallel bike lanes, regardless of legality or reason, as "ignorant" cyclists.
Which is why these type of designs are anti cyclist. Their only purpose is to get cyclists out of the way and out of mind.
noisebeam is offline  
Old 09-08-21, 01:55 PM
  #60  
I-Like-To-Bike
Been Around Awhile
 
I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 29,359

Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked 1,092 Times in 724 Posts
Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
This is the kind of thing that makes me skeptical of bike lanes generally. There's always somewhere where the "protection" breaks down and I think it's too easy to cruise fast past that driveway and not even realize it's there.
Which apparently means that "thoughtful cyclists" are unaffected no matter how the so-called ignorant motorists of Dayton park on the streets described in the OP.
I-Like-To-Bike is offline  
Old 09-08-21, 02:00 PM
  #61  
livedarklions
High Performance Noodler
 
livedarklions's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 13,987

Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM

Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7333 Post(s)
Liked 7,579 Times in 4,255 Posts
Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
Which apparently means that "thoughtful cyclists" are unaffected no matter how the so-called ignorant motorists of Dayton park on the streets described in the OP.

I didn't say or imply that. I'm definitely in favor of enforcing the rules against parking in the bike lane, I'm just not sure that having bike lanes at all is better than not having them. The worst is having bike lanes where the enforcement is unpredictable. That combines the expectation that's where the bikes go with a condition that makes it impossible for the bikes to go there.
livedarklions is offline  
Old 09-08-21, 02:31 PM
  #62  
work4bike
Senior Member
 
work4bike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlantic Beach Florida
Posts: 1,713
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2911 Post(s)
Liked 655 Times in 496 Posts
I'm not too particular on bike lane design; however, I will say that having a bike lane does, at least, give us cyclists a little more real estate. Most the roads around here have bike lanes and all new constructions get them, but there are a few hold outs.

This is one example of a road I ride every day (Mayport Rd) that has a speed limit of 45-mph (we all know that no one drives at the speed limit). Just today a little girl was apparently hit on this road, the story gives no details, but I'm looking into it. A simple bike lane would help.

https://www.firstcoastnews.com/artic...1-87593ecd7d9f
work4bike is online now  
Old 09-08-21, 03:55 PM
  #63  
I-Like-To-Bike
Been Around Awhile
 
I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 29,359

Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked 1,092 Times in 724 Posts
Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
I didn't say or imply that.
You are right, I meant to quote Noisebeam's post about "thoughtful cyclists" who choose not to ride in an area designated for their use,
Originally Posted by noisebeam View Post
...these type of designs encourage thoughtful cyclists to ride in the shared travel lanes.
and of course reference the OP, my mistake.

Last edited by I-Like-To-Bike; 09-08-21 at 03:59 PM.
I-Like-To-Bike is offline  
Likes For I-Like-To-Bike:
Old 09-09-21, 08:14 AM
  #64  
Vismund B
Member
 
Vismund B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Queens, NY
Posts: 49

Bikes: An old Panasonic Sport

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked 28 Times in 19 Posts


I live near this type of bike lane situation. I frequently park my car in parking spaces just like that. I have two young children and a spouse. When we park there I try not to open the rear door al the way as Iím fastening / unfastening their car seats. I always am there to make sure itís clear for them to run to the sidewalk and wait for me or to get into the car. For the most part any bikers that happen to be passing during this time tend to slow down. The only time Iíve had a close call was 2 times with wrong way riders.

I have also been teaching my children that they must treat the bike lane like a car lane and look both ways every time that they must pass it. I repeat it each time we pass the bike lane.

I find that itís much much scarier to exit the vehicle from the drivers side / drivers side rear. There is not much buffer between the parked cars and the moving cars. And people are always speeding.
Vismund B is offline  
Old 09-09-21, 09:55 AM
  #65  
mschwett 
please no more flats
 
Join Date: May 2021
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 1,021

Bikes: aethos, creo, vanmoof, public ...

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 560 Post(s)
Liked 647 Times in 359 Posts
Originally Posted by noisebeam View Post
Is this an example of how not to do it? Looks like a blind right hook trap - these type of designs encourage thoughtful cyclists to ride in the shared travel lanes.
Unless total grade separation is achieved (which is not achievable) you have to have some way to turn across a bike lane. In this case, the parking spaces stop long before the driveway providing clear visibility of anyone in the bike lane in front of you, and clear visibility for the bike of a car slowing to turn. The lane is painted half green, which is a pretty clear indicator that itís not fully protected. At higher volume intersections, there are sometimes bike lane signals, synchronized with separate signals for cars. Personally, I donít like those unless weíre talking VERY high volumes and speeds, because they slow everyone down a lot.

Itís not perfect, but how else would you propose a car turn across a bike lane? Just outlaw driveways or intersections? I ride these lanes all the time both with my kids and by myself, and havenít had a problem in thousands of miles. Not perfect. But much better than a bike lane between parked cars and traffic, or no bike lane at all.
mschwett is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2022 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.