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Crashed - who screwed up?

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Crashed - who screwed up?

Old 09-07-21, 04:35 PM
  #26  
Maelochs
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Also please note that almost every Adopted versions of UTC (something like 37 continental states) starts with the statement that a bicycle is a vehicle and has the same rights and responsibilities as any other vehicle.

I strongly suggest that everyone who sees unclarity here, go park on the side of a busy road, then attempt an unsignalled U-Turn. After the accident, tell the responding officer, "It is his fault, he didn't yell 'On your left!'"

Fact is, if you overtake slower traffic, and that slower vehicle Takes Action to Move Into Your Path, that operator is at fault.

Think about it .... if you are passing me on the highway, in the left lane while I am in the middle lane, and because i don't want to be passed I swerve sharply left and hit you .... is it Your fault for "Failure to use care and caution while passing"?

This is not different that a rider pulling out of a side street without warning---the operator is obliged to make sure that there is a clear path before attempting any maneuver. You cannot cut someone off and blame them---well, you can, and good luck with that.

There is of course a practical side---the old "Dead Right and Dead" side.

Legally yo are protected, but a law doesn't protect you any more than a traffic light actually stops an oncoming car. You have to keep your wits about you, because no matter who wins the court case, being crippled sucks. You had no reason nor legal obligation to expect that this idiot was about to perform an illegal maneuver without looking and without warning---but you have lived long enough to know that people do that kind fo stuff--and come here and defend it.

I am pretty sure that next time you will expect asinine behavior and give the potential threat a wider berth.
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Old 09-07-21, 04:51 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by sdimattia View Post
Regardless of signaling, who moves to the right to turn left or do a u turn . . . ?
I assume the bike path was too narrow to pull a U-turn and so he slowed down and moved to the right most edge give himself the maximum amount of pavement to make the maneuver.

Generally you must believe everyone is out to get you and a complete moron so you have to watch and be prepared for this sort of thing although not everything is avoidable. Wait until you hear about the maneuvers small children do on their bikes on the bike path.
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Old 09-07-21, 05:01 PM
  #28  
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Your both at fault, partly for just being there. His fault for making a U- turn with out looking, and yours for not voicing “on your left” as you approached, which might have prevented his move, and subsequent collision, in the first place. Always announce on your left, or right depending where the the person, or persons being overtaken are. Yeah, chances are they will move the wrong way, but at least they’ll know your there.
Then there is always the little bell you could ring, but for someone who has been around jet engines for almost 40 years, I’ve found them quite useless, to the detriment of a few when passing me.
Just idle curiosity, how’d the other guy and his bike fare?
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Last edited by tkamd73; 09-07-21 at 05:08 PM.
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Old 09-07-21, 05:02 PM
  #29  
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63rickert Calvinball...perfect!

philbob57 I know your motive for posting was to plead your case...but you ended up giving everyone another scenario of unexpected outcomes to file away in their brain. Scenario #187: A bike that seems to be slowing to a stop may in fact be preparing to make a U-turn without looking behind.

As far as who is at fault...this is why I always ride with a helmet cam. I rarely review my videos, because rarely anything happens...but when it does, I want evidence.
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Old 09-07-21, 05:12 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by 63rickert View Post
Green Bay Trail operates on Calvinball rules. I have been hit there. My wife has been hit twice. Populated by superior North Shore types who never say they are sorry. It is never their fault. We finally learned our lesson. Do not ride the Green Bay Trail.
I love Calvinball!
Tim
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Old 09-07-21, 06:02 PM
  #31  
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Reminds me of the movie Gumball Rally, the original, when the Italian driver in the Ferrari rips off the rear view mirror and says, "What is behind me is not important".

A lot of truth to that in racing but definitely not on a bike path. My view may veer from previous posts but since you had 100% visibility of the rider in front of you, and the rider in front of you did not have good visibility of you, in my opinion it is on you to slow down or stop if you don't know which way the rider was going to go. The "better safe than sorry" mantra.

My acid test if I'm on a bike path, very seldom, is I pretend the people walking, running or riding in front of my are very elderly in the 80's or even 90's. People that age don't react quickly, may not hear much of anything, might get confused and well, it's my OBLIGATION to look out for them. I will generally come to a complete stop unless I DO see a signal.
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Old 09-07-21, 06:07 PM
  #32  
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I have to say both partially at fault. Mainly the U-turn rider for not announcing that he was slowing and not looking behind him before making his maneuver, and the OP for not signalling with a bell or announcing passing. But I have to give the guy making the U-turn most of the blame for not making sure he could make his U-turn safely.
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Old 09-07-21, 06:14 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
Complete and utter ********. That's why cars have mirrors and signals. And I don't give a damn about any Uniform whatever rules.
Simple physics says you are wrong. If I occupy space, you can’t occupy the same space. If I’m going slower than you, you have to yield to me. “Get the hell out of my way” isn’t a rule.
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Old 09-07-21, 06:17 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by delbiker1 View Post
I do not see how anyone that was not involved, or was an on hand eye witness, can give testament to who, if not both, were at fault. Even then, often, the parties involved are the not the most reliable for getting accurate information. I am not trying to be critical, I do not know what happened, but perhaps it would be more beneficial to take an honest look at your perspective and see what you could have done in a better, safer manner, rather than look for opinions from others that have no basis in fact. It's all hearsay.
You have a point. Also, It would be interesting to hear the other parties description of the occurrence before making a decision.
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Old 09-07-21, 06:26 PM
  #35  
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You should have cleared leather. At least you knocked him down.

I'm with you are both at fault. He was being stupid. Most people are. You could have used more caution. Always ride like you are invisible because most people are stupid. Even eye contact means nothing.
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Old 09-07-21, 06:39 PM
  #36  
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The other rider is an idiot. And that's not the term I'd use in conversation.

But you screwed up. The world is full of idiots and all we can do is try to avoid them. If we fail to do that, we suffer the consequences. So we can only blame ourselves because blaming the idiot is pointless.

(Unless it actually comes down to compensation, in which case the idiot is wholly and completely at fault.)
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Old 09-07-21, 06:43 PM
  #37  
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When I ride on the local MUP, calling "passing on your left" gets a startle response and they swerve left 1 time every 15 or so.
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Old 09-07-21, 06:45 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
Simple physics says you are wrong. If I occupy space, you can’t occupy the same space. If I’m going slower than you, you have to yield to me. “Get the hell out of my way” isn’t a rule.
Uhmmm...the 'passing' rider also occupies space. So the no-look U-turner can't occupy that space. If we want to have the same privileges on the road as cars, the same rules should apply to a path as well. You can't just flip a U turn without looking. Half the time you say 'on your left' the person you're passing moves left. These are some of the main reasons I don't spend much if any time on bike paths and very little time on the road these days. The majority of people aren't willing to pay enough attention to do the right thing.
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Old 09-07-21, 06:59 PM
  #39  
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yeah .... I am sure all of us have At least one good story about "on your left" where the person did whatever was worst .... leaping left, screaming, letting go of the dog's leash, crashing into someone else .......

But if it is a matter of Liability, in the legal sense, unless there is a posted rule about calling out when passing ....

Think about it. Two riders were proceeding down a path. One slowed and then deliberately turned in front of the other, with no warning, not giving the other enough time or space to react safely. it is no different than if the lead rider had been stopped or even coming the other way. The rider ahead deliberately rode into the path of the following rider in such a manner that a collision could not be avoided.

If we are Not talking legal liability ... then the OP was at fault for riding on an MUP. Anyone who has done that more than a few times knows it is a bad idea.
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Old 09-07-21, 07:11 PM
  #40  
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Based on my limited experience bike paths are far more dangerous than roadways. The person making the u-turn is responsible for making sure that making the turn won't interfere with other traffic. The other traffic is responsible for realizing that the other people on the bike path are for the most part unaware that they aren't the only person on the path. I once came to a stop, after ringing my bell at least three times, behind a lady sideways on her bike in a path. The lady looked at me in surprise and then said to her friend, "I wondered what that ringing sound was!" Be careful out there.
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Old 09-07-21, 07:18 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
Uhmmm...the 'passing' rider also occupies space. So the no-look U-turner can't occupy that space. If we want to have the same privileges on the road as cars, the same rules should apply to a path as well. You can't just flip a U turn without looking.
The rider behind can see what is ahead while the rider ahead can’t always see what is behind. The overtaking bicycle has a responsibility to control his bike and anticipate movements ahead. If a bike slows in front of you, you should just blow by them without trying to figure out what is going on. At the very least announce your presence…a rule that is fairly universal on bike paths.

[Half the time you say 'on your left' the person you're passing moves left.
Occasionally but that it is also the responsibility of the following rider to control their bike.

These are some of the main reasons I don't spend much if any time on bike paths and very little time on the road these days.
So where you ride?
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Old 09-07-21, 07:22 PM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post


So where you ride?
I'll give you 3 guesses, only 1 counts. I'm not going to continue to debate the other points, it's just not worth it.
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Old 09-07-21, 07:34 PM
  #43  
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I admit to sometimes daydreaming on the MUP and not holding my line. So I do appreciate the "on your left". I've never had a problem with cyclists understanding it, but joggers/walkers, sure.

scott s.
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Old 09-07-21, 07:40 PM
  #44  
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Glad you are somewhat ok. It could have been worse.

I follow this:

Originally Posted by Elvo View Post
Unless there is evidence to the contrary, I assume everyone that I pass is a complete moron and announce my passing.
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Old 09-07-21, 07:44 PM
  #45  
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3 guesses, hmm, assuming riding outdoors:
-Your own private reserve?
-your local velodrome?
-Sonoma Raceway?

Here in Wisconsin, they open Road America, in Elkhart Lake, to cyclists on Mon and Wed evenings, quite entertaining, 4.1 miles, none of it flat, but quite smooth, and really wide to compensate for any bonehead moves.
Tim
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Old 09-07-21, 08:38 PM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by BobsPoprad View Post
Glad you are somewhat ok. It could have been worse.

I follow this:
Did you all wave?
gm
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Old 09-07-21, 08:55 PM
  #47  
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Some observations...

- multi use paths are inherently dangerous for several reasons, even at lower speeds
- the U-turn rider was a woman. A greater concern is that the OP got to watch and evaluate her handling skills (if even for a moment) before deciding to pass unannounced.
- the collision could have been prevented/avoided. Does each party recognize his or her error(s) so as to avoid repeating them?
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Old 09-07-21, 09:29 PM
  #48  
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What is Illinois law re: MUPS? Are they specifically designated as roads where motorized traffic is banned? Or like sidewalks where bicycles are legal but beyond that not addressed? Here in Oregon it is easy just to google the Oregon traffic code and look. (Until something goes to court or insurance is involved, it doesn't really matter as it is highly unlikely the other party has nay clue as to what the law is. Like here.)

I look at MUPS as anarchy. I ride to the right, call out when it seems smartest, etc. but I expect very little from others.
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Old 09-07-21, 09:50 PM
  #49  
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U-turner blindly assumed nobody was coming up behind. Bad assumption.

You assumed u-turner would stop or continue in a straight line. Bad assumption. That would be reasonable behavior, but the assumption that others will behave reasonably is bad.

Next, time, I expect both of you will behave differently.
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Old 09-07-21, 09:58 PM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by delbiker1 View Post
I do not see how anyone that was not involved, or was an on hand eye witness, can give testament to who, if not both, were at fault. Even then, often, the parties involved are the not the most reliable for getting accurate information. I am not trying to be critical, I do not know what happened, but perhaps it would be more beneficial to take an honest look at your perspective and see what you could have done in a better, safer manner, rather than look for opinions from others that have no basis in fact. It's all hearsay.
Quoted for emphasis. In the simracing community people often emphasize that it's better to ask "what could I have done to avoid this" instead of "who's at fault", because regardless of whether you were in the right or not, all it takes is for an idiot to take you out of the race. I think this sort of thinking can also apply to riding in traffic on a bike.
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