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Crashed - who screwed up?

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Crashed - who screwed up?

Old 09-08-21, 11:53 AM
  #76  
philbob57
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Some interesting points have been raised.

announce your presence…a rule that is fairly universal on bike paths.
It may be a universal rule, but is simply not the custom here. We all know of times when a pedestrian moves in the direction of the bike when the rider announces themself. My bet is that we all have been passed by riders who do not announce themselves. As I've said, I do it sometimes, but I didn't in this case, unless you count my shout when I realized the other rider was about to do a u-turn.

As it happens, in Illinois:
State law requires riders to announce themselves when passing, a law I'll be sure to follow 100% from now on.
State law requires riders to signal before turning or slowing down.
Bicyclists have the same rights and duties as drivers, and as I wrote above, the other rider would have been at fault by law if we had been in cars.

I'm not all that confident that announcing myself would have prevented this collision - the other rider saw me when she turned, and she did not stop. She was in front of me, but u-turners do not have right-of-way in Illinois. Still, I wish I had announced myself.
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Old 09-08-21, 12:02 PM
  #77  
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This incident could have been avoided if one, or both, had exercised more caution. Seems to me like the result was from mutual negligence.

Verdict: Jump ball
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Old 09-08-21, 12:08 PM
  #78  
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Originally Posted by genejockey View Post
I'm reasonably certain that rule doesn't apply in the case of an unsignalled, unannounced U-turn, especially if the rider doing the U-turn fakes to the right first.
He didn't graduate from law school OR stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
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Old 09-08-21, 12:11 PM
  #79  
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Originally Posted by Eric F View Post
This incident could have been avoided if one, or both, had exercised more caution. Seems to me like the result was from mutual negligence.

Verdict: Jump ball
I dunno. Somehow I think "Doing something you're not supposed to do" is worse than "Failing to anticipate someone doing something they're not supposed to do, when their behavior suggested the opposite". But that's me.
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Old 09-08-21, 12:14 PM
  #80  
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Originally Posted by Mojo31 View Post
Everybody.
Yeah. It's called countersteering. Someone should start a thread about how you first need to turn right in order to turn left. That would be a BF first.
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Old 09-08-21, 12:15 PM
  #81  
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Originally Posted by genejockey View Post
I dunno. Somehow I think "Doing something you're not supposed to do" is worse than "Failing to anticipate someone doing something they're not supposed to do, when their behavior suggested the opposite". But that's me.
Sure, one is maybe more wrongerer than the other, but there were faults on both sides, based on how it was presented.
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Old 09-08-21, 12:18 PM
  #82  
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Originally Posted by SurferRosa View Post
So. It's not your job to provide comfort to the feeble and delicate that you're simply riding how you're supposed to.
I have no idea what that's supposed to mean, but per Illinois law, it is your job to announce your presence to the rider you're overtaking. If you're not announcing, you aren't "riding how you're supposed to".


This has nothing to do with "provide comfort", it's avoid colliding with. And who exactly is "feeble and delicate" here?
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Old 09-08-21, 12:20 PM
  #83  
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Originally Posted by genejockey View Post
I dunno. Somehow I think "Doing something you're not supposed to do" is worse than "Failing to anticipate someone doing something they're not supposed to do, when their behavior suggested the opposite". But that's me.

Passing silently is also "doing something you're not supposed to do".

They're both wrong, doesn't make a right. Film at 11.
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Old 09-08-21, 12:35 PM
  #84  
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Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
What you're saying is that a following vehicle would never be able to pass one that is slowing down. We'd have gridlock in a matter of minutes if that was the case.
No, I'm not saying that. You are supposing from some weird extrapolation of my statement.

I'm saying the person behind is responsible for most accidents that happen when overtaking another.

If you don't believe me, the go out and hit someone from behind that is turning. The policemen, insurance company and courts will quickly tell you you are responsible.

If you choose not to drive or cycle anywhere because that is too much risk for you, then that is your issue. I'll accept the risk.

In the OP's situation, I will have alerted the person that I was behind them before I had no room to stop. And before that point, if I had seen them behaving strangely, I will have slowed down quite a bit.

Do they hear me every time? Do I forget sometimes? Will it help in every situation? I don't know. But so far so good. Most of the walkers on the trail thank me for alerting them. The noobs jump out of their skin because it startles them. So I just chuckle.
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Old 09-08-21, 12:43 PM
  #85  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
Passing silently is also "doing something you're not supposed to do".

They're both wrong, doesn't make a right. Film at 11.
Nope. U-turning bicyclist turned into traffic without looking or signalling, after giving every indication they were pulling off the path and stopping. Their fault. They f****d up. Then they blamed someone else, because that's what people do.

Next case.
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Old 09-08-21, 01:14 PM
  #86  
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Originally Posted by genejockey View Post
Nope. U-turning bicyclist turned into traffic without looking or signalling, after giving every indication they were pulling off the path and stopping. Their fault. They f****d up. Then they blamed someone else, because that's what people do.

Next case.

Both at fault to some extent, she may be more than he is, Illinois is a comparative negligence state.
She shouldn't have done a Uturn without looking, especially after an apparent turn to the right. He definitely had a legal duty to announce.

I'm going 70%-30% here. She can't collect because she's more than 50% responsible, but is only liable for 70% of his damages, next case.


I'm not clear that road rules apply to bike paths in Illinois, anyone care to elucidate? I'm too busy to look at statutes.
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Old 09-08-21, 01:19 PM
  #87  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
who exactly is "feeble and delicate" here?
The people of Illinois, apparently.
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Old 09-08-21, 01:20 PM
  #88  
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Originally Posted by SurferRosa View Post
The people of Illinois, apparently.
Most states have similar announce or bell laws.
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Old 09-08-21, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
Both at fault to some extent, she may be more than he is, Illinois is a comparative negligence state.
She shouldn't have done a Uturn without looking, especially after an apparent turn to the right. He definitely had a legal duty to announce.

I'm going 70%-30% here. She can't collect because she's more than 50% responsible, but is only liable for 70% of his damages, next case.


I'm not clear that road rules apply to bike paths in Illinois, anyone care to elucidate? I'm too busy to look at statutes.
As Nat King Cole famously never sang, "...And though it's been said, many times, many ways, Merry Christmas to you this is why I stopped riding MUPs"
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Old 09-08-21, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by genejockey View Post
As Nat King Cole famously never sang, "...And though it's been said, many times, many ways, Merry Christmas to you this is why I stopped riding MUPs"

To each his own.

Some MUPS are great, others I would ride out of my way to avoid.

When I lived where you live, I don't think I ever rode on a MUP.
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Old 09-08-21, 01:33 PM
  #91  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
To each his own.

Some MUPS are great, others I would ride out of my way to avoid.

When I lived where you live, I don't think I ever rode on a MUP.
There's one that's exceptionally pretty, Sawyer Camp Trail, that runs something like 4 miles through the SF Water Department land. No houses, no cars, just nice woods and brush and a lake. When I was first riding, I'd take it sometimes. Once you got beyond a mile from either end, the foot traffic dwindled to nothing. But I did get tired of pinging and/or calling out "On Your Left!" only to have people either ignore it or actually move/pivot to the left.

And now it's got mountain lions.
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Old 09-08-21, 01:34 PM
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unannounced u-turn caused the crash so he's at fault partially. You are responsible for your own safety so you are at fault partially
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Old 09-08-21, 01:42 PM
  #93  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
To each his own.

Some MUPS are great, others I would ride out of my way to avoid.

When I lived where you live, I don't think I ever rode on a MUP.
How true. I use to think my MUP here was great. 11 miles long with only three busy intersections. I generally avoid it on weekends, but on week days it's a great ride. And a great workout since they left the hills steeper instead of lowering the grade as they do for cars on the roads that run nearby.

However I must say I'm now jealous of Centennial Colorado and the other towns surrounding Denver. I took my bike out there when visiting my son there and did some riding on them. They have really built a nice infrastructure out there for cyclists, runners and others. I'm hoping to get back out there before the weather gets too cold for my liking.
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Old 09-08-21, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by genejockey View Post
There's one that's exceptionally pretty, Sawyer Camp Trail, that runs something like 4 miles through the SF Water Department land. No houses, no cars, just nice woods and brush and a lake. When I was first riding, I'd take it sometimes. Once you got beyond a mile from either end, the foot traffic dwindled to nothing. But I did get tired of pinging and/or calling out "On Your Left!" only to have people either ignore it or actually move/pivot to the left.

And now it's got mountain lions.

"On your lef..." Chomp.
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Old 09-08-21, 01:47 PM
  #95  
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There's also Canada Road on "Bicycle Sundays" - imagine a MUP the size of a wide two lane road with wide bike lanes on both sides, and people STILL spread out across the whole damn thing.
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Old 09-08-21, 03:25 PM
  #96  
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Originally Posted by Iride01 View Post
No, I'm not saying that. You are supposing from some weird extrapolation of my statement.

I'm saying the person behind is responsible for most accidents that happen when overtaking another.

If you don't believe me, the go out and hit someone from behind that is turning. The policemen, insurance company and courts will quickly tell you you are responsible.

If you choose not to drive or cycle anywhere because that is too much risk for you, then that is your issue. I'll accept the risk.

In the OP's situation, I will have alerted the person that I was behind them before I had no room to stop. And before that point, if I had seen them behaving strangely, I will have slowed down quite a bit.

Do they hear me every time? Do I forget sometimes? Will it help in every situation? I don't know. But so far so good. Most of the walkers on the trail thank me for alerting them. The noobs jump out of their skin because it startles them. So I just chuckle.
This is not an example of hitting someone that is turning, this is someone pulling off the road (path) w/o signaling then turning across the path w/o looking OR signaling. What if you do ring a bell or yell 'on your left' and the other person says you didn't or they didn't hear you? What happens then?
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Old 09-08-21, 03:59 PM
  #97  
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Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
This is not an example of hitting someone that is turning, this is someone pulling off the road (path) w/o signaling then turning across the path w/o looking OR signaling. What if you do ring a bell or yell 'on your left' and the other person says you didn't or they didn't hear you? What happens then?
Did we collide? If so then are there injury or property damages? And in that case are the injury or property damage something that one of the parties involved expect the other party to compensate them for?

If so, and I was the person overtaking, then I'd probably have a hard time in court. Because many bike on bike mishaps don't result in a fatality or severe injuries, many bike mishaps never go to court and there are a lot of un-tested things that we really don't know how they'd be ruled on. But in general, the overtaking traffic will bear the burden of fault.

If you consider the subject of this post to be who did something stupid, then the person in front did the most stupid... IMO

But if the subject is more who is legally responsible for any damages, then that will be the OP... IMHO.
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Old 09-08-21, 04:46 PM
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Too many people using the paths.

So I: 1. Slow down, 2. Ring my bell, 3. Yell "On your left." Or, "On your right," and 4. Always assume I might have to leave the actual path.

And here's my rant. Most people don't have control over their dogs, so I slow down. Many are wearing ear buds, so they can't hear a thing. So I slow down.
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Old 09-08-21, 05:49 PM
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This:


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Old 09-08-21, 06:12 PM
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Rather than ask who is at fault, what you should be asking is what should I have done to prevent this incident and I think that has been answered. You were not prepared to react to the unexpected U-turn.

I ride a bike like I used to ride motorcycles. Assume everyone around you is going to do the stupidest, most illogical maneuver when you least expect it and prepare for that instance. Riding with the assumption that people are going to do what you expect them to do is fine 99% of the time but if you aren't ready for the 1% you're going to have these kinds of incidents.
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